Tips on the Hold system?

[SEPHITR0TH]

I seriously suck! Dead or Alive is my second weakest game and I am trying my hardest to change
that. I love this fricken game but the only one I was ever able to counter well with was DoA4 and that was only because my competition was noobs like myself. Any tips on mastering this!? I seem to mix up the Mid holds alot

 

[Hanzer0]

I'm also new to this and would like some higher-level input as well.

To me it seems like you need a great deal of experience with the movesets and knowing what strings hit where to be effective at holding. From there you can apply it to reading/guessing what you opponent is going to attack with. Definitely overwhelming trying to grasp it all at once.

I'm going to use your thread for some of my own questions if that's okay with you, OP.
-how many frames does it take for a hold to become active?
-can you hold while at negative frames?
-when can and can't you hold out of a combo?
-if you can hold out of stun combos, does this mean i have to learn to mix up my combos?
- generally, am i trying to put up a hold and hoping they make the mistake of attacking into my hold? or is it more me reacting to what they attack with and holding accordingly?

 

[newtype]

IMO, NEVER spam the Hold button. It's not a panic button. Fighting games have always been about the mind games between you and your opponent. Notice tendencies and try to anticipate. But don't throw out holds, hoping you're opponent will just give into it. Since the Hold Frames have been shorten, try to rely more on blocking and if your opponent is doing a string of attacks wait to Hold the last hit the string, if you're confident enough.

I seem to mix up the Mid holds alot

I was really focused into DOA3, did some local tournaments, that kinda stuff. But I stopped playing fighting games since then and I'm trying to get into it again. But I have a similar challenge of getting use to doing the new hold inputs. But my advice is to consider the spacing. Kick's have longer range than punches. Depending on the distance and having a general idea of your opponent move set you should be able to have an educated guess to if it's gonna be a Midor Mid

 

[Prince Adon]

Yeah. Like mentioned don't hold spam. If you have a understanding of the character/player that's when you focus more on holding, but only if you have a idea of what's coming. You have other defense options(blocking, SS, stagger escaping, crushing), so don't always depend on holding the punishment can be critical.

 

[Dave]

Don't just randomly do it, expecting it to hit. This will land you in a place where your opponent will just wipe your life away. Do a few training command sessions with characters you enjoy. Learn the ways their holds are performed. Maybe even try in Versus mode, where the CPU is your opponent.

 

[DR2K]

Whenever in doubt just hold low.

 

[MasterHavik]

Whenever in doubt just hold low.

get low thrown for your troubles. So it's just damage, but with others it's a follow up i.e. Sarah.

 

[Chaos]

Sometimes blocking doesnt work since the CPU can read your input. lol If you block, the CPU will grab you, if you try counter strike them
they can interrupt YOU. Like serious man, the CPU reads your mind and that shit will piss you the fuck off.


Edit: And if you throwing out a hold.....well....you should know. LOL

 

[d3v]

...I was ever able to counter well with was DoA4...

That's because DOA4 was really lenient with the counters. The window for holds is smaller here meaning that you have to be very precise with your inputs.

 

[Stikku]

up

-how many frames does it take for a hold to become active?
0. Holds immediately startup as soon as you input the command. There are 3 types of hold dealing damages depending on how accurately you react. Hi-Counter Holds deal the most damage are in the first couple of frames of the hold. Counter Holds deal less damage and are in the few frames after that. Normal Holds deal the least amount of damage and are between Counter Holds and the start of the recovery frames.

-can you hold while at negative frames?
In the context of stun, yes. In the context of recovering from performing an attack that puts you at a frame disadvantage, no.

-when can and can't you hold out of a combo?
Holding within certain combos has become easier in DOA5, though many attacks that cause deeper kinds of stuns than simple hit-stun cannot be held out of reliably in DOA5 as well. Basically, the most consistent unholdable stuns in DOA5 are the new Critical Stun from a Critical Burst move, and Jann Lee's

-if you can hold out of stun combos, does this mean i have to learn to mix up my combos?
Generally speaking, yes. Mixing up in Dead or Alive has always been a virtue because of the chance an opponent could easily hold your next combo'd attack. Again though, DOA5 isn't properly fine-tuned in this regard, so it's much easier to connect a launcher from certain stuns (which guarantees a combo) than in previous DOA games.

- generally, am i trying to put up a hold and hoping they make the mistake of attacking into my hold? or is it more me reacting to what they attack with and holding accordingly?
Either way; It's honestly a playstyle choice. Certain gameplay mechanics are built around both scenarios - though with a bad net connection, the first option may seem more reliable (silly enough).

 

[virtuaPAI]

-Actually holds are active in 1 frame not zero. Its a common misconception.

 

[Stikku]

-Actually holds are active in 1 frame not zero. Its a common misconception.

the technicality is that no input command will ever be so precise that even using tools would allow an action to occur on the same exact frame as input. There will always be an inherent minimal 1 frame between input and action. The point being is, hold's start directly on the next available frame from input and do not have inactive frames before they can catch an attack. 0 frames of "start-up" leads directly into active frames.

The technicality applies here in the sense that, performing a hold so precisely that it catches on the first available frame, the game wouldn't even begin to render the hold animation (since the frame the animation starts on is also the same frame it would catch) but instead go directly into the actual "successful counter hold" animation.

 

[virtuaPAI]

SNIP

-Even after the amount of frames it may take to input a hold, the hold will still have 1 active frame. In other words, if I buffer a hold from another move, I will get the fastest timing for the hold, and it will still need 1 active frame. This is why many times a player is capable of blocking a string, yet is not able to hold and will get hit. So having a 1 frame window between strings(even while buffering) is not enough for the hold to execute.

-if you can hold out of stun combos, does this mean i have to learn to mix up my combos?
Generally speaking, yes. Mixing up in Dead or Alive has always been a virtue because of the chance an opponent could easily hold your next combo'd attack. Again though, DOA5 isn't properly fine-tuned in this regard, so it's much easier to connect a launcher from certain stuns (which guarantees a combo) than in previous DOA games.

-I'm not quite getting Doa5 isn't properly fine tuned statement. Other than Doa4, there have always been stuns that you could not hold out of, or required just frame timing to escape. So this is not something that is new to the series.

 

[Stikku]

-Even after the amount of frames it may take to input a hold, the hold will still have 1 active frame. In other words, if I buffer a hold from another move, I will get the fastest timing for the hold, and it will still need 1 active frame. This is why many times a player is capable of blocking a string, yet is not able to hold and will get hit. So having a 1 frame window between strings(even while buffering) is not enough for the hold to execute.

Okay, imagine buffering a hold from a 30 frame punch. This imaginary punch itself has 20 frames of startup, 1 active, and 9 frames of recovery. 20(1)9 / 30 frames total. If you buffered a hold during that punch, the hold would become active on the 31st frame, as in: the frame right after the punch.

-I'm not quite getting Doa5 isn't properly fine tuned statement. Other than Doa4, there have always been stuns that you could not hold out of, or required just frame timing to escape. So this is not something that is new to the series.

It's not new, it just occurs more often and is more apparent in DOA5.


Overall I think we're tripping on frame-data terminology but we're agreeing on the same thing.

 

[SEPHITR0TH]

Thanks for the info. I'm currently practicing vs the computer and omg you guys are sooo right about it reading your inputs
Bass is killing me lmao. I've gotten a bit better at reading but the ninjas omg I feel like hayate and ayame are glitch countering
Me lol

 

[Solid_Altair]

Do the unique Holds work when you're in Critical Stun? (sorry if it has been asked)

 

[virtuaPAI]

Okay, imagine buffering a hold from a 30 frame punch. This imaginary punch itself has 20 frames of startup, 1 active, and 9 frames of recovery. 20(1)9 / 30 frames total. If you buffered a hold during that punch, the hold would become active on the 31st frame, as in: the frame right after the punch.

-Do you remember forced wakeup setups in doa4, where the opponent can block, but was not able to hold? This is because there was enough frames to block, but not enough frames to hold, which would mean that holds are not instant(even after buffering). Or when you know you held, and you hear your character make a hold grunt, yet you are still hit(in Doa 2, 3 and 5), that is because holds once again are not active instantly. There is 1 actual frame of startup before it goes into active frames.

Do the unique Holds work when you're in Critical Stun? (sorry if it has been asked)

-I am pretty sure advanced holds do, but not parries.

 

[Stikku]

-Do you remember forced wakeup setups in doa4, where the opponent can block, but was not able to hold? This is because there was enough frames to block, but not enough frames to hold, which would mean that holds are not instant(even after buffering). Or when you know you held, and you hear your character make a hold grunt, yet you are still hit(in Doa 2, 3 and 5), that is because holds once again are not active instantly. There is 1 actual frame of startup before it goes into active frames.


-I am pretty sure advanced holds do, but not parries.

If you know you held the right direction and your character made a grunt, that's many frames after you actually input the command, likely meaning you got struck in recovery. Just because your hands are out doesn't mean it catches.

 

[virtuaPAI]

If you know you held the right direction and your character made a grunt, that's many frames after you actually input the command, likely meaning you got struck in recovery. Just because your hands are out doesn't mean it catches.

-Stuck in the recovery of what exactly?

 

[Stikku]

-Stuck in the recovery of what exactly?

Since we're talking about Counter-Holds, it should also be assumed we're talking about the Counter-Hold's recovery. There are inactive recovery frames after the active frames of a counter, where holds will not catch attacks and nothing else can be done until the recovery frames finish.