Why is DOA 5 considered non-competitive ?

[Hawsta]

...according to the general FGC on the web.

I started off playing 2D fighters until recently (earlier this year) I picked up VF5 FS and really liked it for it's system and depth. Long story short I'm experiencing a new few love for 3D fighters haha. I'm seriously considering picking DOA 5 up. Although I have yet to play it I really enjoy the attention to detail and animation.

My question to you guys is this:
Does DOA 5 lack the depth to be considered a strong competitive game?
If not, then could anybody give me a reason for why it flies so low under the radar?

I understand that the game is new, so my notion could very well prove to be incorrect and I apologize for that. As you can probably tell playing competitively is important to me and I was just curious about how competitive and deep this game can be (also knowing how and why would be nice too). More specifically some of the things I liked about VF5 is the whole system of advantage vs disadvantage and the sort of turn based pacing that resulted, frame data in-game, circular and semi-circular moves, and balance (almost every character having a 12 frame jab for example). I don't even know if most of these things are in DOA 5. I'd appreciate any input, thank you.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Titties.

Holds (misunderstanding of the triangle system).

It flies low under the radar 'cause it doesn't have Capcom's brand power, and there aren't super-solid tutorials within the game to show new (or prospective) players how deep the game actually is.

To speak in generalities, the game is fairer to the losing player than most games out there, in that guaranteed damage is not as prevalent (it's still in there). However, if you don't have the skill to keep up, you're just gonna get rolled anyway, just like every other "competitive" fighter out there.

 

[Rikuto]

It's plenty competitive, much more so than 4.

Flies under the radar because Team Ninja borrowed technology from Batman.

 

[Hawsta]

Holds (misunderstanding of the triangle system).

Thanks for the quick reply. Losing players having the boon of less guaranteed damage may not be such a bad thing in my opinion. Actually now that you mention it that was one of the few things I wasn't too crazy about in VF. If you were at a significant life disadvantage, you were in for quite the struggle where pretty much no incorrect guesses can be made.

Anyways, do you think you could elaborate some more on people misunderstanding the "triangle system"?
I'm assuming that refers to attacks beating throws, throws beating holds, and holds beating attacks (blocking doesn't play a part in this?) I'm sorry if this is a silly question, however my only experience with DOA is playing a demo of 4 and to my understanding that is a time when holds were ridiculous.

 

[Tones]

DOA5 gives me the same feeling as Guilty Gear does. Easy to pick up, scrubs can have their fun and tickle the opponent around but a better player will always have control. There's also a lot of clear meta-games since there is pretty much always a route to escape (GG has it's burst system, DOA has counters. 5 also has CB which is a clear goal within the stun game)

Something DOA4 could never do as it favoured scrub tactics too much (dodgy hitboxes which almost completely nullifies spacing, counters doing too much damage, character balancing issues, no proper side stepping).

 

[Awesmic]

...according to the general FGC community on the web.

If, by the "general FGC community", you mean a certain Tekken player named FYagami and his little Fighters Ge-- excuse me, I mean Tekken Generation site that has recently done an obviously biased and shallow review of the game after claiming he'd give it a so-called "fair shot", then yes, by that "logic", DOA5 is "not competitive"...

But in all seriousness, it is. Hell, the actual FGC seems to be opening up to it more than they did several years ago thanks to certain of FSD's members spreading the gospel in sites such as SRK. I was surprised how chill Tekken Zaibatsu was about the game when I had recently visited and actually registered as a member there (as myself).

Drake Aldan nailed it on his reply though, the mishandling of the hold system WAS what was holding the game back. It's not so much a strong tool as it was before, as it has been nerfed across the board in damage (save for character-specific advanced holds), decreased in active frames (making precision more of an emphasis) and increased in recovery frames (making it easier to punish whiffed holds).

 

[Matt Ponton]

To answer your question:

It's because not enough players support the game offline.

 

[Rikuto]

I would honestly be OK with that fact if the game had at least SCV quality netcode.


..... BUUUUUUUUUUUUT it doesnt.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Anyways, do you think you could elaborate some more on people misunderstanding the "triangle system"?
I'm assuming that refers to attacks beating throws, throws beating holds, and holds beating attacks (blocking doesn't play a part in this?)

Blocking does play a part. Advantage and disadvantage is still there, there's no guard meter so you can block all you want.

Holds are just another defensive option. Blocking is vulnerable to throws (lightning fast in this game; neutral, breakable throws are i5, command (unbreakable) throws are i7-i10 and up) and frame traps/guard breaks, but it's not like it's useless, quite the contrary. You block to gain advantage, and to collect more data on your opponent so that you can start holding him (or whatever counter-offense you like) and abruptly shift the advantage in your favor.

Now, some people don't like the "stun system", and using holds out of stun to catch attacks. oh, my combo's not guaranteed, they can just hold out of it and punish me for hitting them first, this game is cheap.

If the person you are fighting against is "hold-happy", you can punish them severely with the triangle system. Specifically, you hit them, put them into stun, and pretend, make it look like you're going to continue with a big combo. They start spamming holds, and then you throw them.

The throw, when it is used to punish a whiffed hold, counts as a Hi Counter throw that does 150% damage. Depending on the throw you use, you get respectable damage if not more damage compared to if you actually finished your combo.

Punishing whiffed holds with Hi Counter throws is fairly easy once you know your opponent's tendencies. You can even just use neutral throws, which are fast, easy to input, and when they land Hi Counter, become unbreakable.


You have new players who occasionally complain about holds and the hold system, but they're actually not playing the game right. And, as mentioned, not only are holds punishable when you understand the triangle system, they are less powerful in this installment as well.

 

[DR2K]

Same reason stuff like skullgirls, Arcana hearts, can be. It's tournament scene. I think DOA5 will have a solid one though.

 

[Hawsta]

snip

Really, thank you for taking time to explain that to me. It took me a long time to get out of some the habits prevalent in 2D fighters. It is insight like this that new players like me can really use

I would honestly be OK with that fact if the game had at least SCV quality netcode.


..... BUUUUUUUUUUUUT it doesnt.

Speaking of online connectivity, is there a problem with DOA 5's?

 

[Stikku]

because DOA5 is a $60 beta test.

 

[Gill Hustle]

To answer your question:

It's because not enough players support the game offline.

This.

However, Bboy Dragons travel to NY helped coax players to come out yesterday at Ultimate Gaming Spot. I wanted to stream them last night but, even though they showed A LOT of improvement the Tekken Crew was having too much fun with the stream.

In the end I realized since a few were heading to Blackburry's Conn Tourney, It was better to work with them all and Dr. Teeth and I gave them as much info as possible to train for the week.

And YEAH! I got a hold of the PS3 version at a discount so 2 Tekken players could get in the venue yesterday.

Unlocking the VF characters for 3 PS3's is a pain in the ass though . . .

Beyond that I would say if players CANNOT make it to OFFLINE gatherings, You guys should make an effort to support the streams by "educating" stream monsters about DOA. At least in that little way you can help the community.

Stay positive about YOUR GAME even if there are things you don't like about it.

 

[DR2K]

Speaking of online connectivity, is there a problem with DOA 5's?

It's garbage. Waiting on patch for online opinion.

 

[DarkRios III]

It's garbage. Waiting on patch for online opinion.

I wouldnt call it garbage, I'd call it VERY inconsistent.
I have great matches with my circle of 6 friends in lobby matches, but when I go to ranked.....it's a crapshot.
But reguardless the online NEEDS to be fixed.
Garbage to me is MK9/KOF XII and XIII netcode.

 

[DR2K]

I wouldnt call it garbage, I'd call it VERY inconsistent.
I have great matches with my circle of 6 friends in lobby matches, but when I go to ranked.....it's a crapshot.
But reguardless the online NEEDS to be fixed.
Garbage to me is MK9/KOF XII and XIII netcode.

DOA5 is on that level. You can't react to anything properly even in good connections. It just appears smoother, when it isn't. When connections are bad it doesn't even try to mask lag or input delay.

There's no reason smaller budget games that require more percise inputs run better. How do you say you're making a game for the community when you release a busted online? And they have the nerve to charge for it via online pass.

Yes, online being solid is especially important to fostering the community because 99% of us have no local scene whatsoever.

 

[Chaos]

DOA5 is truly a competitive fighting game that has the correct tools that could had been present on DOA4. The reason why DOA4
was the most hated in the series because theres no 2 in 1 combos, no unholdable stuns so that means your opponent can out
of it no matter how deep the stuns are & you can wake up kick near a wall which doesn't make any sense, theres no SS, no nothing.
Basicly, anything that makes a 3D fighter competitive does not exist in DOA4 and its nothing but a random crap guessing game.
Its ok to have some guessing in fighting games but having a fighter thats built around it too much is not a good thing at all.
But all the broking mechanics that made DOA4 horrible is not present on DOA5 & just because its "easier" than VF & Tekken doesnt mean it can't be competitive. Also if a stupid reviewer thinks DOA5 is not competitive only because it has " Two attack buttons" then I guess VF is not a competitive fighter .

Edit: DOA5 will definitely be getting plenty respect & love just as much as VF & Tekken. Oh yeah, don't worry about DOA5's online netcode, TN will make sure to fix/patch it pretty soon but I wish they would add rematch with it.

 

[Stikku]

this

 

[Chaos]

View attachment 595

Whats does the picture mean? Wait........never mind..I must of piss somebody off talking about DOA4 having broking mechanics, Im not here to start a beef.

 

[DarkRios III]

DOA5 is on that level. You can't react to anything properly even in good connections. It just appears smoother, when it isn't. When connections are bad it doesn't even try to mask lag or input delay.

There's no reason smaller budget games that require more percise inputs run better. How do you say you're making a game for the community when you release a busted online? And they have the nerve to charge for it via online pass.

Yes, online being solid is especially important to fostering the community because 99% of us have no local scene whatsoever.

Well I guess I'm being fooled then because my moves and reactions holds and guard all seem fine to me when I'm playing my buddies, granted 3 of us live in the same state, while the other three live in Georgia.
But again we are all on 360, and on wired routers.
But I can not agree, with you saying that it's on the same level as KOF XII and XIII, that's just plain not true.
I'll give you MK9 maybe, I only played it once or twice at a friends house, but I owned KOF XII and own XIII, and this is much much better than those two games.
I know that some people may be experiencing real bad lag, but EVERYONE had bad lag with KOF XII and that game was totally unplayable.
Now having said all that bottom line if the netcode can be improved it needs to happen, because even if I have perfect games every time if 50 other people have at best sub par games, then that's a problem.
But this ain't on KOF netcode, not even close.