Hayabusa's Omni-Stance

[SilverKhaos]

I friggin hate this since they added it in ( though it was idiotic to put teleports into a 3d fighter in the first place). Like 7 or 8 things he can do from it, and I can't see ANY way to read which of the moves hes about to go into. He could be doing ANY of the teleports, or his torpedo, or any number of other moves, and I can't see any way to read it enough to counter online.

Am I missing something or is it SUPPOSED to be this "easy mode" of a stance? I'm really hoping i'm just overlooking something.

 

[Rikuto]

His teleports don't give him anything and take about 20 frames to do.

You can beat them out with pretty much everything. His parry teleport usually leaves him at neutral as well, so that doesn't really do much for the guy either.

You're letting his flashiness get in your head and mentally pressure you into being overly defensive. Mathematically, this situation completely sucks for Hayabusa.

 

[SilverKhaos]

His teleports don't give him anything and take about 20 frames to do.

You can beat them out with pretty much everything. His parry teleport usually leaves him at neutral as well, so that doesn't really do much for the guy either.

You're letting his flashiness get in your head and mentally pressure you into being overly defensive. Mathematically, this situation completely sucks for Hayabusa.

Kay, wait. You say any of his moves can be pretty much beaten out by anything, but I have tried all of Mila's moves and nothing seems to work. Hoping I just haven't figured out the right timing or something.

And what do you mean by "his teleports don't give him anything"?

 

[Rikuto]

Not every transition Hayabusa uses into his stance is going to leave him at enough advantage to actually do anything. In fact only a couple of his options into it leave him at a reasonable enough speed to make a solid guess.

The only transition he has that gives him real control over his stance is his . From anything else, he's coming in at neutral or disadvantage and that limits what he can do.

Most characters have either a 12 or 13 frame mid, some have faster. Hayabusa's mids out of that stance are like 19 frames. They are not fast. He has to use his high to beat your mid. If he is coming in at a disadvantage, he can't even do that and he is forced to teleport parry.

Even if he successfully parries you there, its meaningless because as I said before, it gives him nothing. And what I mean by that is, it causes no damage whatsoever and does not typically put him at advantage. He may be behind you, but in terms of speed you are both at neutral. Some characters may actually benefit by being backturned in this situation.

 

[Raansu]

Or you could just free step when he teleports...

 

[SilverKhaos]

Or you could just free step when he teleports...

I do, and it hits me anyway. So either I just haven't found the timing for it yet, or they have tracking.

 

[MajesticBlue]

If Mila has a 12 or 13 frame low, that will beat out any option he has other then 6P+K. You just have to be ready. If he starts to do 6P+K just low throw him.

 

[cip]

You could go into training mode and let the dummy do a teleport, so you can practice the timing of the side step. It's not that hard. You can even just start sidestepping once he enters the stance (if he is far away from you) and block his tracking moves on reaction, which should be doable.

None of his teleports are tracking. You can do it! But, Ongyoin isn't bad, I'll admit that

 

[shinryu]

Also, hate to say it, but lol online by any chance? Lagabusa is pretty goddamn annoying. I can see you are using the teleport throw; well, let me just crouch under that shit on reaction. well i'll be damned HOLY SHIT THAT TOTALLY STILL GOT ME UR SKILL IZ TOO GOOD. Actually, about half the cast is just fucking ridiculous online, but Hayabusa is definitely one of the beneficiaries.

 

[Jin Masters]

You can just hold up back or 7, and beat defend against all his options. His ninpo teleport has terrible recovery

 

[Chaos]

Sometimes I can't help but to feel like his teleports are fucking useless & puts him at a disadvanage. I kind of wish TN would of left it along & I miss his teleport grab that was a OH but I guess the reason why his Ongyoin is nerfed because alot of whiny people was bitching about how hayabusa was "overpowered" and I bet people said the same thing about Hayate & Helena which is probably
why they are nerfed big time on DOA5 & well well well it finally came true, the crybabies got they're wish lol. Oh well, its no big deal to me & plus the good thing about Ryu's Ongyoin is that you can't just abuse it randomly & expect to win the match automaticly you have to use it for whiff punishment.

 

[SilverForte]

So his teleports leave him at disadvantage now? It was always neutral before iirc, wonder why it was changed.

 

[Brute]

Hayabusa's teleports are all smoke and mirrors. They're excellent if your opponent has slow reaction times, but not much else. If you're Mila you should have no problem whopping the sucker each time he pops out of one. That woman is way too fast for him. The only solid attacks he's got from the stance are 6P, 6P+K, & T.

 

[TakedaZX]

I picked him up today against my bro. If you guys watch Master play, you'll notice he abuses the 6p(high elbow), because it closes distance fast and if you block it, he's at +1, giving him a slight edge... but not really. If it connects though, it's a lot more deadly. His parry is nice... but chances are if you get parried it's going to free cancel your combo and indeed put him at neutral or negative(the thing is though, he's a spoiled sport so if he gets parried at all, he gets mad and stops playing for that match. Shit pisses me off.)

Check it man. I see a lot of you players that are saying you hate it so much are the ones turtling back when you see it and I'm not trying to insult you, but it's the ugly truth. If you don't wanna deal with it, you NEED to move in, here's your options.

1. Run in and block when you see him go for a move. You can duck his throw on reaction. His throw is directly above and his aerial mid is right above in front of you.

2. This one applies to Ryu's that Ongyion at the edge of the map, waiting for you to come in.

Rikuto's description of Bayman's offense to me earlier works well for this:

​

Remember... like an officer with a riot shield. Approach slowly with your guard up, get right up to your opponent, then attack. No need to rush in. You have plenty of defensive options if they want to attack first.

​

Ryu is bad up close(I'm lying he can hold his own, but generally, he's better at mid range. He's like DOA4 Hayate, but better). So your best bet is to keep him pressured, and push him back to the wall. JDE showed me how it's done, edge yourself forward and with your guard up, soon enough you'll get close enough to the point that if he tries an option, he'll be interrupted by your moves, or he'll throw one out and at most break your guard for a bit of advantage but nothing big.​

3. Wait it out.
I don't like this idea because i'm impatient, but if you don't do anything, he'll have to move eventually, especially if he has the health disadvantage.
Think before you move. Chances are all you'll have to do is duck, block, or maybe even kbd or free step out the way.

 

[Brute]

He's like DOA4 Hayate, but better).

I must disagree with this statement vehemently.

 

[TakedaZX]

I must disagree with this statement vehemently.

Ok well obviously he's not just like DOA4 Hayate but the playstyle can be paired side by side. When they're close you're working to get them off of you, then you play with your mid ranged options, as opposed to before when Ryu was a monster up close and far away.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Just don't give Ryu any respect at all and make him go for dumb things. You beat him the same way you beat Alpha, never back off, get him into a corner till he has to guess his way out. Once you get him to go for something block and throw. His best tool is a hold, you know he is gonna go for it.

The thing is he has really crappy strings. None of them give him anything on normal hit either. So he can't even really mixup very well imo. What lows does he even have that you need to watch out for?

Ongyoin 6P is pretty good since it covers so much ground, on block though there is no mixup at all sadly. His moves all come out soo slow he can't follow up with anything. People like to take risks vs him here for some reason. If you want to play you can juggle him for pretty big damage. If not you can just beat him out and force him into neutral or even evade everything with some charge moves. Neutral is an awfull place to be with Ryu btw.

I don't think he really plays like Hayate because Hayate had real string mixups and great knock down moves. No to mention an amzing mid that has followups worth using. Even a safe crush move. Ryu just is weird. I think Team Ninja wanted to make him a counter hit kinda character of sorts. The dud(e) has issues. If he didn't have Izuna holds and an amazing ceiling game he would be one of the worst in the game I feel.

 

[Brute]

What lows does he even have that you need to watch out for?.

1PK is a decent crush. Not the best, but literally one of the only reliable moves in his repertoire.

Also, 2P4K Is a nice way to enter his only OH.

But yeah, I don't feel like DOA5 Ryu plays like DOA4 Hayate at all. Almost opposites, in fact. Hayate was fast and had a great pressure/mix-up game. You felt perfectly at home and in control at close, mid and far range. Ryu just has turtle skills.

 

[TakedaZX]

I don't think he really plays like Hayate because Hayate had real string mixups and great knock down moves. No to mention an amazing mid that has followups worth using. Even a safe crush move. Ryu just is weird. I think Team Ninja wanted to make him a counter hit kinda character of sorts. The dud(e) has issues. If he didn't have Izuna holds and an amazing ceiling game he would be one of the worst in the game I feel.

Hayate didn't have much string mixups outside of his pp strings in 4. pp6p, pp4p, and ppp, all were mid, and his only other options were lows and a high mixup which was pretty useless and unsafe outside of a combo(ppkk), and unless I'm mistaken pp4p's followups could both be ducked. He's mid heavy, always has been, and he still is.

Ryu's got two different high high mid(pp) mixup sets, one that can go right into the ninpo stance(though it's -8 on block and knd on hit). The second set has a high, mid p, mid k, and low option with the mid k being a block breaker for about +9.

His low goes right into the ninpo stance, but it's counter hit friendly... and that's it, but it is a nice low.

He's also got two high options, one being the elbow that goes right into the ninpo stance again. I think his mixups outweigh Hayate's since Hayate's usually end with a mid punch or a low kick.

outside of that you were usually poking around with 6p, 3k, and 2p, until you opened up the opponent to knock em away then you approach with 3h+k or 214p to crush that wake up kick and lets not for get 236f(hayate gake). Using that was his greatest set of mixups because it could incite panic, and it could WARP him behind them to deplete the fear of a wakeup kick.

I didn't read Hayabusa's frame data for 4 more than one time because I was more interested in learning Hayate's.

I don't know how his frame data's changed, but I know 8k(his best interrupter apparently, i don't remember who told me so), and his jab had been pulled back to be a bit slower. So yea up close he's not really great, but his evasive moves still exist and while most of his other crushes were toned down, some still hold devious crushing ability(33p)

3h+k for Hayabusa behaves just like Hayate's but instead of as a string option, it's given guard break properties, low crush props, and and i28 start up instead of an i24 one.

In his nin stance, his elbow(6p), rolling kick(6k), and low slide kick(2k), as well as his ninpo grabs, match up with the options that Hayate had in 4, as well as the warp options except there's more options now and there were more options then.

The thing that Hayabusa does have though, is guard break pressure. Breaks from high kicks, mid punches and mid kicks. gg.

Even a safe crush move.

Which safe crush?

 

[MajesticBlue]

Somebody said Hayate's 4F+K was only negative 5. Doesn't it have crush frames as well?

We are thinking of string mixups in different ways. I think of moves like Hayate's 2KK, 9PP, 66P, 8P7K, 3F+KKP.
The follow up makes the move safer. Some of those pokes are even safe, like 9P. Since you could delay most of those they had to think twice. Creating false presure and what not. Even in Doa 4 Ryu didn't have much string pressure, but he didn't need it. He needs his 1k stun back lol.

Hayate did have some low_mid mixup strings but the lows are kinda slow. Still, imo 66p 2k_P and 1P P_2K were good and had there uses. Ryu has to take a gamble to even throw out a poke when he has frame advantage. Hayate never had that problem.

I agree with you 100 percent that Hayate is mid heavy, Ryu is not mid heavy at all. Ryu has very high unsafe mids for the most part. That was the main reason that Helena was better then him imo. He could have frame advantage on her and his mids would still miss (He still has this problem, it actually seems worse tbh). I always joke around screaming I HAVE NO MIDS whenever I use him. Hahaha. When I played my Helena main friends I had to use Hayate as a counter pick.

His guard break game is not half of what it is cracked up to be imo. 3F+K Might as well be neutral. F+KKK is negative 6 or something so not very good. 66K has hitbox issues and even if you get them to block it his options are not scary at all. I mean you can even fuzzy guard everything if you wanted to. 4PK is pretty good if you don't abuse it. 6KP loses to too many random attacks imo but sometimes you can sneak it in. The way I see it what does he have that is even scary with that much advantage? Nothing really. Just keep an eye out for the Izuna. If you option select him he falls apart. Never give him a chance to go for the big damage he wants.

Not having any real string pressure to go for has been on my mind for a while now. Your post kinda just reminded me of it. This wasn't really directed at you as much as just a rant I guess lol, sorry. Feel free to disagree, we all can't think the same. Not angry just all bleh when I go over him in my head. Perhaps I give myself too much credit and have grown to be jaded.

I'm not a Doa Doctor, but I play one on TV.