D.I.D. 8: Aftermath
- Thread starter Scornwell
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Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Okay I watched Mann vs Rikuto and it's true that Rikuto was not punishing at all. Mann was doing NH launchers that left him back turned and he still didn't punish him. All Helena did in that entire set was get the stun and make him guess wrong, that's it. But all these people who don't play Helena will say "Oh she won so she obviously isn't as bad as you say". These people are uneducated on Helena and yet think their opinions carry a load of weight which they don't.
When you block Helena's 3in1's hit 2P, that is the end of her offensive pressure. Rikuto didn't do that so that's his fault, it doesn't make Helena good it just means he screwed up. If Rikuto doesn't want to throw punish her when she is unsafe which she is all the time then that's his mistake giving up guaranteed damage, it doesn't mean she is good.
Unless people are going to exploit her weaknesses you have no right to comment on whether she is good or not because right now people are simply throwing matches to her because they don't realise what her faults are.
I'd love to proven wrong here but unfortunately I know too much about Helena and most of the people here don't know enough.
When you block Helena's 3in1's hit 2P, that is the end of her offensive pressure. Rikuto didn't do that so that's his fault, it doesn't make Helena good it just means he screwed up. If Rikuto doesn't want to throw punish her when she is unsafe which she is all the time then that's his mistake giving up guaranteed damage, it doesn't mean she is good.
Unless people are going to exploit her weaknesses you have no right to comment on whether she is good or not because right now people are simply throwing matches to her because they don't realise what her faults are.
I'd love to proven wrong here but unfortunately I know too much about Helena and most of the people here don't know enough.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
I just make them whiff,since the goal is to land one of those tasty throws. She makes her living by making you whiff counters. That isn't DOA 4. That is DOA in general.
synce
Well-Known Member
I think that guy hit the nail on the head. DOA isn't like other fighters and all this unsafe talk is really starting to get annoying. You need to keep in mind TN's comments about each character playing unique in DOA5. Helena's safety and damage output are just fine because with her you don't just run up to someone and start wailing on them. You wait for them to whiff or you crush a high attack, then you unleash an impossible to counter string of pokes, toss them up, knock them down, then pick them up and continue the assault. That's my two cents anyway.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
You didn't answer the question regarding Kokoro but simply answered around it. Why should I answer yours? I don't have a tier list anyway so even if I wanted to, I couldn't give you an answer.
Also, the amount of selective judging of the matches baffles me. For some reason people look just at a few examples of easy punishing not happening, and pretend that it could've easily been done for the whole match, which is obviously not the case. Ignoring the amount of times Bokuho avoided something, ignoring the amount of times strings were not finished making it impossible to punish properly, ignoring the mount of easy counter hits that were obtained and so on... But, whatever..
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
well when your shit is -10 or more......then isn't much debate you can be punish. I mean....a character only have 2 safe mvoes to you is fine? What planet do you live on? I main Zack, but that doesn't make any damn sense at all. There is no FG character in history that is that unsafe....The closet to DOA 5 Helena is SC4 Talim. SC4 Talim was so unsafe. She was at disadvantage on hit.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
No, this is wrong.
dawnbringer
Active Member
Even a perfectly balanced game will have low tiers, because of the nature of tier lists. You cannot call Helena non tournament viable if she wins tournaments or ends up on top. Imaginary tournaments, where Helena loses to everyone, are not relevant compared to real tournaments.
P.S. In SC5 there's a character that's often listed twice in tier-lists: the first entry based on his enormous potential, and the second is based on his real-life results.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
We thank you for this oh so deep and insightful answer.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
i think they have already said multiple times she can win, but it's difficult. Stop putting words in their mouth.
Well he didn't need to deep, since i did it for him.
dawnbringer
Active Member
It also may be extra difficult to win against hard working Helena. It's not one-sided.
I didn't put words in their mouths. I said that Helena is not to be considered non-tournament-viable based on imagination alone, that's it. I don't know if anyone actually mean that or not.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
line by line
Uh....not offence, but not really in my opinion. There are so many things I can abuse vs. Helena it's not funny.
And no one didn't say she was non- tournament viable.
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
I already explained why she's bad. I've been doing it since she was first revealed, and not only me.
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
Rikuto knows he could punish but he knew it wouldn't deter him one bit from doing something random and stunning him. It had NOTHING to do with punishing.
I'm starting to think you guys have a problem understanding that punishment is ASS in the game in general. You have a 300 point bar and you think me losing 50 of it is "scary"?
That isn't even what had Rikuto being frustrated with not knowing about the match up. It was the fact that he got TOUCHED and the only way to gain momentum was to successfully guess while she has all the momentum and it NEVER stopping. After a juggle there was no "I have to back off because of the wake up kick" and he just continued his pressure. If Helena didn't have millions of variables to her strings that you could react to and her lows were slower then MAYBE she would be as ass as you think.
You would think people would listen to those that traveled and competed in the game offline but of course not. The ones that never traveled for this game know everything. Real pro shit going down. #respect
I'm starting to think you guys have a problem understanding that punishment is ASS in the game in general. You have a 300 point bar and you think me losing 50 of it is "scary"?
That isn't even what had Rikuto being frustrated with not knowing about the match up. It was the fact that he got TOUCHED and the only way to gain momentum was to successfully guess while she has all the momentum and it NEVER stopping. After a juggle there was no "I have to back off because of the wake up kick" and he just continued his pressure. If Helena didn't have millions of variables to her strings that you could react to and her lows were slower then MAYBE she would be as ass as you think.
You would think people would listen to those that traveled and competed in the game offline but of course not. The ones that never traveled for this game know everything. Real pro shit going down. #respect
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
If I lose 50 of those 300 every time my opponent blocks something then yes, I get worried.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
If you play Bass, Tina, Bayman, Mila, and Ryu it's more. And let's not forget characters like Rig, Kasumi, and Eliot have unbreakable throws that are amazing punishment tools. Punishment isn't ass...it's heavily character dependent my friend.
I can't believe you guys are still trying to say that Helena is terrible. And the fact that you guys still believe this leads me to believe that a good portion of you aren't even suited to discuss this game on this deep of a level, because it's pretty blatant that you don't even know about your own game.
It's weird because you would think that people would listen to those who have a track record of being more knowledgeable about the game. Not in this community though.
And as DOA players you would think that people would wise up to the fact that you can't take everything as it is on paper. Helena seems mediocre on paper since is sooo unsafe....that would mean something if it wasn't DOA. Hell strings on paper seem terrible as well since they generally leave you at negative when you free cancel, but you kinda have respect follow ups...I'd like to see you guys punish every thing that is technically punishable and then get blown up because you didn't respect the string delay.
Punishment doesn't hurt at all for you guys to be complaining that she is so unsafe. She has so many string variations that make it tough to actually react and punish her and not only that, but her single hitting strikes that are unsafe are so fast that if you really aren't looking out for it then you'll probably miss the opportunity to punish.
Now let's say you do punish her for throwing out an unsafe string that you guessed or reacted to accordingly...how much damage are you getting? Like 10-15% or something? I mean I could understand if the damage for punishing someone was high enough to deter the player for doing stuff, but it really isn't. You punish a character like this 3 or 4 times, and it really wouldn't matter. Chances are she is going to hit you more times than you punish her or have that opportunity to and we all know what happens when this character hits you....or do I need to explain that too?
It's weird because you would think that people would listen to those who have a track record of being more knowledgeable about the game. Not in this community though.
And as DOA players you would think that people would wise up to the fact that you can't take everything as it is on paper. Helena seems mediocre on paper since is sooo unsafe....that would mean something if it wasn't DOA. Hell strings on paper seem terrible as well since they generally leave you at negative when you free cancel, but you kinda have respect follow ups...I'd like to see you guys punish every thing that is technically punishable and then get blown up because you didn't respect the string delay.
Punishment doesn't hurt at all for you guys to be complaining that she is so unsafe. She has so many string variations that make it tough to actually react and punish her and not only that, but her single hitting strikes that are unsafe are so fast that if you really aren't looking out for it then you'll probably miss the opportunity to punish.
Now let's say you do punish her for throwing out an unsafe string that you guessed or reacted to accordingly...how much damage are you getting? Like 10-15% or something? I mean I could understand if the damage for punishing someone was high enough to deter the player for doing stuff, but it really isn't. You punish a character like this 3 or 4 times, and it really wouldn't matter. Chances are she is going to hit you more times than you punish her or have that opportunity to and we all know what happens when this character hits you....or do I need to explain that too?
HiguraShiki
Active Member
Geez, I need to get you to play against some lobby matches with me. It seem's like you would be Helena's worst nightmare. Plus, I'm getting tired of people in lobby picking her and out guessing, I need to see some vids or actual games so I can learn how to punish her.
You can actually 2p her out of most of her bokuho transitions...too bad that only does like 5 damage lmao.
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
Her being unsafe or being easy to knock out of BKO isn't the issue. The issue is her TOUCHING you which will happen. Will you be able to get out of the blender once she turns it on is the real question?
How about this though, until one of you scrubs get off your couch and show me that you can punish everything, kill yourself.
How about this though, until one of you scrubs get off your couch and show me that you can punish everything, kill yourself.
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