D.I.D. 8: Aftermath

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TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
Punishment doesn't hurt at all for you guys to be complaining that she is so unsafe. She has so many string variations that make it tough to actually react and punish her and not only that, but her single hitting strikes that are unsafe are so fast that if you really aren't looking out for it then you'll probably miss the opportunity to punish.

This is actually true for the rest of the cast as well. Everyone has string variations and free canceling, but not everyone's strings end -9 or worse 99% of the time. I'm also playing Leifang, Tina and others and people online and offline (hah, offline.) seem to have a harder time punishing them than punishing Helena. The fact that a high-level player like Rikuto wasn't punishing her with a grappler is definitely a mistake on his part. It doesn't mean that Helena is better than we originally thought.

Trust me. I'm the first who would love to be wrong, I'd love for anyone to actually find something to make her viable but as the game is right now, it won't happen. When the patch comes I seriously hope she gets buffed at least to DOA4 level. So don't come with the excuse about her mix-up game and her canceling strings because everyone benefits from this.
 

HiguraShiki

Active Member
Her being unsafe or being easy to knock out of BKO isn't the issue. The issue is her TOUCHING you which will happen. Will you be able to get out of the blender once she turns it on is the real question?

How about this though, until one of you scrubs get off your couch and show me that you can punish everything, kill yourself.
It's just so damn strange that people claim Helena is the worst character in the game, but I have yet to see anyone actually capitalize on these so called weaknesses. The same goes for Lisa. People claim that she is so easy to punish, yet I just don't see people ever punishing her. Believe me, I wan't to believe you guys since I hate going in a lobby and seeing players using those characters being 20 and 0, but I just don't see anyone punishing these characters.
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
How about this though, until one of you scrubs get off your couch and show me that you can punish everything, kill yourself.

Obviously not everything will be punished in a match between human opponents. But the thing with Helena right now is that almost literally all her moves except the 3-in-1s leave her at -9 or worse, so if anyone blocks something and presses T, the throw WILL happen because there's almost no room for having tried to punish a safe move because there aren't any outside the 3-in-1s which all look the same.

If the patch comes and Helena stays the same I'm pretty sure players will eventually stop using her because she's simply bad. Right now people are losing to her because we're extremely early in the game's life. I remember something similar happening in the first weeks of DOA4 with Brad Wong. Erik having lost like that to a Helena player is surprising because Erik is one of the best DOA players in the world.

Also, I'd love to "get off my couch" and play you. Not to prove anything but to simply play a fellow DOA player offline. Sadly, as I've explained several times before, it is simply not possible for me because I live in another continent. But that doesn't immediately make my opinion not worthy of consideration. I know that comment wasn't directly aimed at me Chris but try to differentiate between the MaxDragos swarming the online DOA community and the players like me who like the game but can't show up to tourneys because of geographical location.
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Why can't some of y'all as Helena players simply be happy that E-Mann got as far as he did instead of downplaying him because he exploited a few resets?

At this rate, I'm feeling discouraged to go to any future tourneys myself. 'Cause now I wonder if I gotta read this crap if I or someone else not quite known to go to offline tournies somehow manages to get far in a major based on how I play against notably good players, like I'm a disease or a fluke or somethin'. I mean really? "All the DOA players must be bad because Rikuto lost to E-Mann's Helena"? That shit hurts. It really hurts. It's like, I feel like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.
 

MasterHavik

Well-Known Member
Geez, I need to get you to play against some lobby matches with me. It seem's like you would be Helena's worst nightmare. Plus, I'm getting tired of people in lobby picking her and out guessing, I need to see some vids or actual games so I can learn how to punish her.
lol okay dude. i mean...who knew blocking could be so good...oh wait...i have been saying that since Day 1. DOA players need to block more.

Why can't some of y'all as Helena players simply be happy that E-Mann got as far as he did instead of downplaying him because he exploited a few resets?

At this rate, I'm feeling discouraged to go to any future tourneys myself. 'Cause now I wonder if I gotta read this crap if I or someone else not quite known to go to offline tournies somehow manages to get far in a major based on how I play against notably good players, like I'm a disease or a fluke or somethin'. I mean really? "All the DOA players must be bad because Rikuto lost to E-Mann's Helena"? That shit hurts. It really hurts. It's like, I feel like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.
I feel the same. I bet you when head offline with Zack and get top 8. People will still not use him and ignore him.
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
lol okay dude. i mean...who knew blocking could be so good...oh wait...i have been saying that since Day 1. DOA players need to block more.

I feel the same. I bet you when head offline with Zack and get top 8. People will still not use him and ignore him.
Just wait 'til Highguy and Hatrify get their head back in the game.

Just wait...
 

Chris Harris

Well-Known Member
Brad was NEVER considered good at ANY point in DOA4's life. Like I said you aren't going to punish any and everything. The fact will still remain that when she touches you, you go in the blender and that's pretty much it. Her being "slower" won't change anything because most moves/strings are negative on hit/block.

She has her bad match ups but I assure you it's only the BEST characters in the game and Bayman isn't one of them.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Helena's ability to poke lows mid-combo to bypass blocks goes a far way toward compensating for how "unsafe" she is. I notice similar tactics with Lei Fang and Kasumi working beautifully.

The "on paper" stuff you guys are slaves to only tells you half of the game at best. For example, Dr Dogg's frame data does not tell you which attacks crush, which ones are able to be effectively delayed, etc. DOA has always been a bit more organic than other fighting games (perhaps why some claim it's not as "technical" as others, though I would contest that point). If you'd stop getting your panties all jumbled up and actually play the game, you'd realize in the hands of a skilled player Helena is more than viable.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
If the patch comes and Helena stays the same I'm pretty sure players will eventually stop using her because she's simply bad. Right now people are losing to her because we're extremely early in the game's life. I remember something similar happening in the first weeks of DOA4 with Brad Wong.
I'll copy from one of my prior posts and edit it a bit...

E-Mann and Mamba both play Helena. You think either of wouldn't know what's unsafe or how to punish it? Why did E-Mann still have so much trouble against Mamba's Helena when using Kokoro if Helena sucks so much? How does your argument that we're early in the game's life hold water in this case when they both know the character very well?
 

SilverKhaos

Active Member
Are yall kidding? Helena is a friggin nightmare. My only hope is to never let her hit me, even once. Otherwise I'm screwed, cause I'm caught by endless hits that I can't really do anything about.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
If there is a mid weight striking character who is the same speed as Bayman, has lower damage output than Kasumi and is more unsafe than Ayane then I call BS. Helena has some good tools but the risks she has to take are disproportionate to the rewards she receives when guessing right.

Her force teching game is not as good as some of the characters in the game, Tina, Bass and Bayman get guaranteed force tech's. Helena has to guess and if she guesses wrong she loses any advantage she could have had and often leaves herself at negative. So many times in E.Mann's matches he used Helena's 6P to force them up, they tech rolled it missed and he lost momentum.

She does have some good lows but she also has an abundance of lows that leave her at negative on hit which makes them pretty useless. Every character in the game can win, there is just no justification for Helena being so fucking unsafe. If safety doesn't mean anything which from what people are posting seems to be a general consensus then let's remove every safe attack in the game and see how people feel about it.

You have to demonstrate more than just Helena landing a stun and the opponent constantly guessing wrong to justify her being good. There is no fear when it comes to blocking against Helena, she doesn't have access to guard crushes outside of one crappy string in BT and nothing she does is safe.

All they need to do is make her 3in1's 0 or +2 on block and she would be a good character. Right now she is just loaded with gimmicks that don't stack up compared to other characters like Lei Fang, Kokoro, Jann Lee or Ayane. These four characters are faster, stronger, have better ranged tools and are safer than she is. She just needs some improvements to her current tools such as some safety and she will be fine.
 

HaJiN

Member
Helena is extremely unsafe. In DOA2, she was one of the safest characters in the game, and in DOA4, she was still up there. They took away almost all her safe moves. (I still miss 6+K being safe in DOA2) Also, the problem with Helena, is that her mix up game isn't very great. With most characters, they add mix-ups to their moves as the series progresses, but with Helena, TN tends to replace old moves with different ones instead of giving her the option to mix up. She has a few new mix ups, but not that many. It also doesn't help that her Bokuho duck is now crushable.

people claiming not knowing how to fight Helena may not be aware of the fact that she uses a lot of parlor tricks to create an illusion that she is hard to fight or has an advantage. If you pay attention you will know when to interrupt her seemingly endless strings. Jann Lee is different. He is hard to fight, because he has an awesome move list, and is genuinely hard to fight when in the right hands. (then again any character can be good in that case, but you know what i mean)
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Don't bother Eckhart. Helena is the best character in the game.
I don't think people are saying she is stupidly good, I think people are saying that she is not as bad as the Helena community makes her sound sometimes.

If people say she doesn't need any buff's then they cannot complain about people asking for Jann Lee to be nerfed because if Helena as a character is what a character should be then a lot of the characters are way to good and need to be nerfed down to her level.

To anyone who feels the need to pull me up on this:
NO CHARACTER in this game is bad. Every character can win but some characters simply have better tools that are much easier to use and have a much larger pay off. Tools like Busa's huge array of guard crushes are only beatable by countering correctly and that is it, blocking, attacking or side stepping fail against them. This makes them great tools which have a purpose in his game play. There are multiple ways to pokes holes in almost everything Helena does, this is what makes her tools weak by comparison.

Here is an example: Helena's 3in1's, which her movelist heavily focuses on.
These moves are highly telegraphed, so how do you deal with them?
+ Block and punish her with an attack that comes out in under 15 frames.
+ Counter them.
+ Side step them.

This is what makes her tools weak in comparison to say Busa's guard crushes, there is just too many ways to deal with them. You don't have to make an educated read as to whether they are coming or not, they simply pose not threat to a blocking opponent. If she is meant to use these a lot (which based on how many she has I would assume TN wanted it that way) then make them more threatening. Make it so people feel the need to gamble and counter them so she has someone kind of mind game she can play. Right now she is just hollow gimmicks. I wouldn't make them guard crush that would be too much, but maybe make them +2 so she has some way of pressuring her opponent.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
It's funny how some of you are making the arguement against that she can't win, lol. When we're saying she has weaker tools. Which are facts at this point.

People are too prone to the "force tech", which makes no sense since you're not at any disadvantage and her offense is slower than yours, unless you're Bass. She continually has to make more guesses than any character, does very little damage, and in increadibly unsafe/disadvantaged on block. Lets continue arguing against these facts, maybe that'll change them.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Oh, not this bullshit again. You guys have no idea what the word "fact" even means.
There are no linear tables of measurement for establishing relative facts in this game. Even to say "She's slower than ___" you would have to add up all her moves and get a mean, mode or median and that compare that to the same stats as every other character. And even then, you would be left with interpretive questions such as "Does first strike speed matter X more than a mid-combo speed does? Which of these stun long enough for X follow-up relative to the character? What's the speed of her crushes?" (all these would have to be done for the rest of the roster as well). And that's only to establish fact on "speed," one of many variables that should be taken into account when measuring a character's viability in combat (which you would have to weigh, again, on a RELATIVE, INTERPRETATIVE SCALE YOU INVENTED between which variables matter more than others).

Long story short: You people still think your opinions are "facts" and it's downright ridiculous for anyone with common sense. There are no "facts" here. Just interpretive opinions. Claiming your argument is valid because it's supported by your definition of "facts" is about as rhetorically sound as saying you're right because a magical unicorn told you so.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
It's funny how some of you are making the arguement against that she can't win, lol. When we're saying she has weaker tools. Which are facts at this point.

People are too prone to the "force tech", which makes no sense since you're not at any disadvantage and her offense is slower than yours, unless you're Bass. She continually has to make more guesses than any character, does very little damage, and in increadibly unsafe/disadvantaged on block. Lets continue arguing against these facts, maybe that'll change them.
Everyone has advantage if they force tech someone... I don't understand. She only has weaker tools at neutral. Any character that can avoid wake ups is going to be good, cause they're still too good. All she has to do is throw you or launch you(?). This game is all 50/50's that's all anyone needs.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
Oh, not this bullshit again. You guys have no idea what the word "fact" even means.
There are no linear tables of measurement for establishing relative facts in this game. Even to say "She's slower than ___" you would have to add up all her moves and get a mean, mode or median and that compare that to the same stats as every other character. And even then, you would be left with interpretive questions such as "Does first strike speed matter X more than a mid-combo speed does? Which of these stun long enough for X follow-up relative to the character? What's the speed of her crushes?" (all these would have to be done for the rest of the roster as well). And that's only to establish fact on "speed," one of many variables that should be taken into account when measuring a character's viability in combat (which you would have to weigh, again, on a RELATIVE, INTERPRETATIVE SCALE YOU INVENTED between which variables matter more than others).

Long story short: You people still think your opinions are "facts" and it's downright ridiculous for anyone with common sense. There are no "facts" here. Just interpretive opinions. Claiming your argument is valid because it's supported by your definition of "facts" is about as rhetorically sound as saying you're right because a magical unicorn told you so.

Here's the literal definition before I respond.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact

Frame data wise, she's one of the slowest in the game. Unless the value of numbers has changed in the past 1000 years. You can add in all the guess variables you desire, but the numbers are pretty constan and almost always not in her favor.

I used the slowest character in the game for a situation where she's at +0 in the quote you responded, so all you silly excuses wouldn't hold much ground.

Anyone can guess right and win, that's how this game is designed. Some do it a lot less, for no specific reason. Some do it a lot more, for same reasons. That's the major problem with this games balance right now.

Everyone has advantage if they force tech someone... I don't understand. She only has weaker tools at neutral. Any character that can avoid wake ups is going to be good, cause they're still too good. All she has to do is throw you or launch you(?). This game is all 50/50's that's all anyone needs.

She's not force teching you, you're teching to avoid the force tech. She has 0 advantage, just more guess work as she's just resetting the neuteral game.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
I'm starting to get the impression that most of you are forcing yourself into guessing situations that you don't need to be in. There are only a few characters that can really work around the stun system, so everyone but those few have the exact same guessing game after you get a stun. Hit'em with mids till they hold, then throw. Helena can fuckin loop them after that! Everyone has to hold at some point.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Here's the literal definition before I respond.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact
Trust me, I know the definition. Nothing you have posted is close to it.

Frame data wise, she's one of the slowest in the game. Unless the value of numbers has changed in the past 1000 years. You can add in all the guess variables you desire, but the numbers are pretty constan and almost always not in her favor.
They are not "guess variables." They are interpretive/categorical variables, not numerical ones. In other words, not only is relying on numbers alone a flawed analysis, but you have yet to numerically prove in a statistical study that any of your analysis is A) accurate B) fact and C) close to either, even disregarding any of the categorical variables that should be considering in analyzing a character's efficiency. Not even that would prove "fact," for numerous measurement reasons

I used the slowest character in the game for a situation where she's at +0 in the quote you responded, so all you silly excuses wouldn't hold much ground.
Basically, you're arguing that numbers alone can indicate how useful a character is. In actuality (especially without a statistical analysis to demonstrate it), they cannot, and even using them to establish how "fast" a character is involve subjective interpretation on the part of the person creating or interpreting the numbers.
I'm beginning to think you didn't even read my post.

If you want to argue she's slow or bad or whatever: fine. But those are not fact. You do not know what fact means. Using it as the basis of your rhetoric to claim that Helena is bad thus becomes very unconvincing for those who know better.
This will be my last post regarding this. Anyone educated even mildly in how numbers work or in the epistemological nature of words like "fact" would get it by now. It's futile for the rest.
 
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