DOA5: New Gameplay Demo Trailer of Ayane and Hitomi
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DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Frame advantage will be irrelevant if the stun/counter system remains the same.
They don't have to change anything about the stun/counter system. All they have to do is give us ways to work around the system. As I mentioned before, give us stuns that can't be countered out of and attacks that can't be held. Then the casual players have their DOA, but the competitive players have a real game.
Thank you, I will... because that's how competitive fighting games work. Although, for the record, combos change in those games depending on meter, stage position, number of characters alive on your team and various other factors that have nothing to do with guessing or giving the defending player some sort of fair shot at escaping a bad situation.
To think I'd see you pull the "world revolves around me" card in this discussion as a cop-out. It ain't like you.
Personally, I would believe that the alpha build is NOT the DOA5 most of us want. I mean COME ON... it's a dad-gummed alpha build. I knew the risks when I wanted to shell out $100 to play it. At this point, this build should just be taken with a grain of salt... even I got enough common sense to know this They got less than 6 months of tweaking and (hopefully) loketest opportunities to get the final game right (whatever that is).
Rikuto, if you or any other like-minded individuals should be pushing anything at this point, it's demand for loketests in your area (and not just Japan with special invites this time) on TN's Twitter so they'll know exactly what you want out of the game... or something. Yeah, I know I'm not the most strat-savvy person on this site, but if even I can think of resolutions like this...
Anyway, I'll just hide over here 'til you guys blow off steam. All this Greek speak's out of my league to translate, but there was something to be said about assuming this was the DOA5 I wanted, and I didn't see any one of you mention a push for loketests.
Game Over
Well-Known Member
How about this ... how about removing the ability to counter during stun, while at the same time, increasing the ability/usefulness of slow-escaping.
To elaborate ...
Attacker strikes opponent, causing critical-stun ...
STAGE 1: Opponent is unable to counter during the stun frames, but is able to slow-escape. Attacker is free to follow with any attack to launch, knockdown, or extend the stun. If opponent slow-escapes fast enough to reach "recovery" frames before being hit again, he/she then is able to counter during the "recovery" frames.
STAGE 2 (stun-extended): Same situation as above, with the change that the length of stun (number of stun frames) is reduced, shortening the window of time for a GUARANTEED attack to hit before the opponent reaches "recovery" frames.
STAGE 3 (final stun state): Same as above, with the length of stun further reduced. Also, any attack that hits during this state will either launch, knockdown, or crumple (invincible frames during animation) opponent to the ground.
With each stage, if the opponent reaches "recovery" frames, attempts to counter, and is hit by an attack on a different hit-level (or thrown), counter-hit properties will be applied to the attack.
Note, among the attacks that cause critical-stun, the length of time of the initial stun will vary attack to attack, character to character, etc.
Also, there should be attacks in the game that cause a certain hit-stun, not critical-stun, that lead to varying small amounts of frame-advantage for the attacker (where the opponent is unable to counter or slow-escape).
To elaborate ...
Attacker strikes opponent, causing critical-stun ...
STAGE 1: Opponent is unable to counter during the stun frames, but is able to slow-escape. Attacker is free to follow with any attack to launch, knockdown, or extend the stun. If opponent slow-escapes fast enough to reach "recovery" frames before being hit again, he/she then is able to counter during the "recovery" frames.
STAGE 2 (stun-extended): Same situation as above, with the change that the length of stun (number of stun frames) is reduced, shortening the window of time for a GUARANTEED attack to hit before the opponent reaches "recovery" frames.
STAGE 3 (final stun state): Same as above, with the length of stun further reduced. Also, any attack that hits during this state will either launch, knockdown, or crumple (invincible frames during animation) opponent to the ground.
With each stage, if the opponent reaches "recovery" frames, attempts to counter, and is hit by an attack on a different hit-level (or thrown), counter-hit properties will be applied to the attack.
Note, among the attacks that cause critical-stun, the length of time of the initial stun will vary attack to attack, character to character, etc.
Also, there should be attacks in the game that cause a certain hit-stun, not critical-stun, that lead to varying small amounts of frame-advantage for the attacker (where the opponent is unable to counter or slow-escape).
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
3.1 had stuns that can't be countered out of and useful attacks that can't be held?
x Sypher x
Active Member
You didn't know?
So basically you're saying that you want SEing to be more powerful than what it already is? I don't think many people would agree on that. There have been complaints that SEing in DOA4 (and DOAD) is overpowered. If it's buffed even more then there sure as hell won't be anymore guaranteed setups. It should revert back to DOA 3.1 style, hell maybe even DOA2U in which Rikuto once quoted, "you will NEVER fill up that SE meter, ever...ever." Lol XD
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
The world of fighting games does not revolve around me, it revolves around the core FGC which wants competitive fighting games. My interests happen to align with theirs for the most part.
Sorry if that hurts a nerve with some people, but that's a fact. If you don't make the game cater to the core, it will fail. That isn't really something anyone can debate over.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Yes. 3.1 had many situations that disallowed defensive holds including frame advantage...You should try playing it one day...
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Your interest revolves around being bitter at doa4 and allowing that to blindside you into a train of thought that will only hurt the game.
3.1 had the best formula, the game needs to work off that formula. There are dozens of ways to change how holds work without completely removing it from stuns.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
How the fuck is giving the core FGC what they want going to hurt the game? You make no sense and you're not even willing to compromise on changes that would make it work. You just want holds in stun regardless of whats good for the game and its scene.
Do you actually want the game to have a big tournament scene with people who don't have to be begged into playing it? Hell, do you even plan on playing it competitively?
Tenren
Well-Known Member
Im not disagreeing with you on the hold while stun but you make it sound like you represent the entire DOA community.
I do hate holds out of stuns but ive played with it for 6 years now. I guess you could say im use to it. But if they are going to be fixed I like Game Overs idea
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Rikuto said:
The core FGC does not equal to being what is good for our community. If I wanted a game that wasn't DoA I'd go play it.
Rikuto said:
No, that is not the case. It's not about compromises, its about the integrity of DoA. Completely removing holds from stuns in DoA will not work, period, there is no compromise to that argument. You are bitter about DoA4, everyone is, but this is the wrong approach. There are better ways to handle it outside of just straight up ripping it out. The formula is already in place with 3.1, all they need to do is take that formula and improve it from there.
Rikuto said:
This isn't DoA4, and you need to move past that. And yes, I want to see DoA5 do well, but I don't give a damn about the people outside our community. They will view DoA the same as they always have. If they hadn't they would of actually taken a look at DoA3.1, but they don't.
Rikuto said:
No, I've already come to terms with the fact that I am not a high level player and never will be. I still plan on supporting the game and attending tournaments when I am capable to go, but only because I want to support the game and hang out with you, sorwah, vp and others in the community. I enjoy talking about the technical aspects of DoA, I enjoy playing it, but I'm done trying to be competitive. Despite that I will always push for it to be a balanced and competitive fighter.
x Sypher x
Active Member
Short, sweet, and to the point. Beautiful lol.
Game Over
Well-Known Member
In no way is SEing a bigger problem than having the ability to ability to counter out of critical stun. Plus, I recall the biggest complaint about SEing was the ability to SE off the wall and follow-up with a getup kick that pretty much everyone complained had too much range. If the wall game in DOA5 is changed where off-the-wall counters and SEing don't apply, then there is no longer a problem. SEing, itself though, is a tool that competent players use, and casual players don't. By my suggestion, one key problem can be addressed by increasing the usefulness of a tool.
Now, to keep SEing from being "overpowered", as you say, it can be set where the SE meter is empty upon STAGE 1 (in my above post), so at no time can a player go into a stun with a nearly-filled SE meter. And as they progress through the STAGEs, a player has more opportunity to fill the meter and recover. By design, STAGE 1 would see the most chances for guaranteed setups (among competent players).
Extending the stun, increasing the chance the opponent has to recover is the trade-off for the attacker not immediately launching or knocking down the opponent during STAGE 1. Keep in mind, that if the attacker anticipates the opponent will SE out of stun, it can be set where the opponent can be thrown during the "recovery frames".
So after critical-stun, an opponent can be hit for not SEing fast enough, or thrown for SEing, if the attacker successfully anticipates/reads the response of the opponent.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Why would I want to play a game that requires a modded original Xbox, importing or some other out of the box shenanigans, that has no competitive community and no online play? o_0
Yes it does. The competitive DOA community is too small to sustain itself alone. If people from other fighting game communities do not show interest in DOA5, there will be no competitive scene for the game. It will be stuck with ~15 player tournaments in some remote corner of a major, and DID... which almost always falls on a terrible tournament weekend.
I'm assuming the online will be unplayable. Not because I have no faith in Team Ninja, but because the only 3D fighting games with "acceptable" netcode are SC5 and to a lesser extent, VF5. Good netcode is always a surprise, not an assumption. Without solid online and/or a good competitive scene, I will have no reason to play DOA5.
This is not true on several fronts. First off, DOA4 is the last DOA game most competitive DOA players got into. I don't own a 3DS, and even if I did, I wouldn't want a fighting game for it, so DOAD has no relevance to me.
If people outside of the tiny DOA competitive community do not care about DOA5, it will not have a competitive scene (as stated above). It has nothing to do with playing DOA 3.1. It takes too much effort to play the game compared to other fighters, and there's no competitive scene for it.
A vast majority of the DOA community never played 3.1, yet you expect people outside of the community to have played it? Come on man...
Also, people outside of the community have been very receptive to the DOA5 info we've received so far... especially the Akira trailer. If the game is solid, they will play it.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Raansu if you're not planning on playing the game competitively why are you trying to advocate for system integrity? Casually it doesn't even matter what they do, the game will always be easy against whatever scrubs you choose to fight online.
Competitively this shit turns everybody off. Except for maybe Julius or Master, but yea.
Competitively this shit turns everybody off. Except for maybe Julius or Master, but yea.