qoodname
Active Member
That!
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
Eliot is all of a sudden a pressure character now? really? slow linear predictable strings that all leave him at disadvantage with little mixup potential is your definition of a pressure character? lol eliot aint pressuring shit compared to the likes of jannlee, christie, helena, kasumi, and the VF cast.
i was wondering how you came up with such a ridiculous conclusion then i found one of your match vids...
this brings up my point of people losing to eliot soley on unfamiliarity and not defending/sidestepping. the akira player clearly out-pressured you the entire match but his defense was atrocious, not sidestepping, constantly attacking out of disadvantage and eating your random offense in the process.
at the :40 second mark you did eliots unsafe as shit easily throw punishable dragon kick and the the akira player just stood their blocking, you were literally getting away with murder with all the unsafe sidesteppable shit you were throwing out. you will NOT get away with any of this against people knowledgeable of eliot. Tiers compare characters at the highest level of play not on how good a character is in online matches against random S ranks
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Christie and Kasummi say hi. They say where is that i9 jab or that i11/i12 high?
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Eliot is a pretty great character. Speed in my opinion is one of the most integral things a character can have in a stun heavy game. Huge daming super throw, 9 frame poke, solid high/low game, solid crushes, tons of strrings with variants, etc. . .
Helena constantly out performs every top tier character of the week in a tournament enviorement because she plays the stun game so well.
I see a lot of the same defeatist attitude that Helena players had coming into DOA5 whenever I see low tier talk, but it wasn't until the people that loved and played the character took her to the next level that silenced the community in general. On paper you can make Helena look like the worst character in the game, but in reality it doesn't play out like that.
Helena constantly out performs every top tier character of the week in a tournament enviorement because she plays the stun game so well.
I see a lot of the same defeatist attitude that Helena players had coming into DOA5 whenever I see low tier talk, but it wasn't until the people that loved and played the character took her to the next level that silenced the community in general. On paper you can make Helena look like the worst character in the game, but in reality it doesn't play out like that.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
That's not true for any character on the roster or else Jann lee and Leifang would be dominating every tournament.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
we just don't know.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Which means in reality she is high tier. If you took all the tournament results by character and rated them in a grid, what would we see?
Helena players whining for no reason.
Tokkosho
Well-Known Member
but were not talking about other characters. were talking about eliot. its not an "all or nothing" type thing.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree she's one of the best if not the best. Her PFT, ability to crush well, low stun game, etc. . . Relatively unsafe, lacks guarnateed set ups, etc. . a lot of these reasons are used to negate Eliot and Hitomi.
Pokerking87
Active Member
Thats my Eliot. That Fight against Akira was really bad played!
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Quick question, do you guys consider people who don't throw punish good players? I was thinking about this cause I watch lots of people playing and they block obviously unsafe moves like NH launchers that leave the opponent BT and they still don't throw punish.
I'm not sure whether to take the game play coming from these types of players as representations of how strong a character is not. Are you a good player if you are failing to capitalise on punishing your opponents unsafe strings or does it not matter that much?
Ahead of time I don't want to hear the "you can't throw punish online" crap that people throw out as an excuse for failing to grab when they have the opportunity. On a decent connection it works 99.9% of the time, with only a few moves that are a pain. Throw punishing is extremely reliable the vast majority of the time.
I'm not sure whether to take the game play coming from these types of players as representations of how strong a character is not. Are you a good player if you are failing to capitalise on punishing your opponents unsafe strings or does it not matter that much?
Ahead of time I don't want to hear the "you can't throw punish online" crap that people throw out as an excuse for failing to grab when they have the opportunity. On a decent connection it works 99.9% of the time, with only a few moves that are a pain. Throw punishing is extremely reliable the vast majority of the time.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Throw punishing is mostly a slap on the wrist, more players would rather start their stun game with the advantage granted to them from block. It's also riskier to do online with the netcode, if you're a frame off with punishment and the opponent decide to attack you'll be in high counter state.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Throw punishing isn't that hard, I can throw punish Helena on everything she does except her BKO 4PKK or BKO 6KK which I don't actually try to. I don't think there is a character who I am afraid to grab when they do something that is unsafe as long as the connection is decent. I mean you can pre buffer the shit out of throw inputs so the timing isn't tough. It takes some seriously fucked up lag to screw it up.
I also don't think people fail to throw punish because they want to start the stun game otherwise they wouldn't be punishing 50% of the time.
I rather take that guaranteed 40 or so points of damage than risk being side stepped, parried or countered.
d3v
Well-Known Member
But that mentality doesn't really get the discussion going anywhere but in circles.. If people don't start discussing the matchups, even just based on their experiences, then the discussion will go nowhere.
Compare this thread then with the Persona 4 Arena tier thread on SRK where I started a matchup chart at the same time as me and Matt did one for here. Since people started comparing matchups (as well as posting known matchup data from other sources) earlier on, we were able to fill that chart up pretty quickly (before interest in P4A dropped off). Thanks to people posting, we were able to figure out that stuff like how Mitsuru wasn't the best character in the game (Aigis is), way before the rest of the internet.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
I never said it was hard, I'm just saying it's usually you're least damaging option and open to input error.
You can not throw punish Helena on any open palm moves, they're all -5 in 1.03A. Then of course there's delayed strings, players can bait overly defensive players even during block.
The safest option is not always the best one for every scenerio.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
(!) Can someone be considered a high level player if they suck at throw punishment? Not choose not to but actually suck at it?
I just watched some high level players fighting and I saw a moment when one could have punished an unsafe attack, didn't and got parried and lost half their health bar. Another guy was in the corner, blocked an unsafe attack that could have easily been punished with an i10 grab putting the opponent in the corner, didn't, got side stepped and got killed on the wall.
When I see stuff like this I can't help but think these people actually suck at the game.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Yes, if they're unaware of frame data completely then they need to be more aware of it.
Then again, it's easy to theory fight someone else's match since you're not in the heat of the moment.
So where is this pressure you were talking about?