DOA5 Demo: Consolidated Feedback
- Thread starter Berzerk!
- Start date
Raansu
Well-Known Member
It was character specific but yes some stages had distinct advantages like that. And its funny you mention the generator as I was just talking to VP about it a bit ago. I figured the generator should be placed in the back of the area, but at the same time you can move before the match so its a matter of playing smart at the beginning.
Keylay
Well-Known Member
I think High/Low holds should do the same damage as mid holds. This is how much damage Hayate's holds do:
High / Low Hold: 45 / 56 / 67
High / Low Hold (Stun): 36 / 45 / 54
Mid Hold: 30 / 37 / 45
Mid Hold (Stun): 24 / 30 / 36
Advanced Mid Hold: 55 / 68 / 82
Advanced Mid Hold (Stun): 44 / 55 / 66
Holds protect you from taking damage and they cause damage so I don't think they should do so much. Especially with the 3-point system. Advanced Holds are fine though.
I think they should change the cliffhanger system when knocking someone off. The attacker has two options, do a strike or throw for a little more damage. The defender can block a strike and take 0 damage or break a throw and cause the attacker to take 10 points of damage instead. It feels weird that the attacker can get nothing or even take damage from knocking someone off a cliff. I can imagine some intense situations that might be cool like both players have 10 points of health left and it becomes a crazy mind game. But it's strange that hitting the opponent into a generator can cause more damage. The generator does more damage than the rails and it causes a ground bounce afterwards.
I kind of want more startup / recovery frames on rising kicks. I'm not really sure how to balance that. But it still seems like people are running away from a downed opponent. You can't get away in time in some situations. I know characters have some options against them but I don't know how effective they are. I use Kasumi so I'll usually jump over their kick or do her charge move. Charge moves can be countered though but adding a few recovery frames rising kicks could make charge moves more useful against them.
High / Low Hold: 45 / 56 / 67
High / Low Hold (Stun): 36 / 45 / 54
Mid Hold: 30 / 37 / 45
Mid Hold (Stun): 24 / 30 / 36
Advanced Mid Hold: 55 / 68 / 82
Advanced Mid Hold (Stun): 44 / 55 / 66
Holds protect you from taking damage and they cause damage so I don't think they should do so much. Especially with the 3-point system. Advanced Holds are fine though.
I think they should change the cliffhanger system when knocking someone off. The attacker has two options, do a strike or throw for a little more damage. The defender can block a strike and take 0 damage or break a throw and cause the attacker to take 10 points of damage instead. It feels weird that the attacker can get nothing or even take damage from knocking someone off a cliff. I can imagine some intense situations that might be cool like both players have 10 points of health left and it becomes a crazy mind game. But it's strange that hitting the opponent into a generator can cause more damage. The generator does more damage than the rails and it causes a ground bounce afterwards.
I kind of want more startup / recovery frames on rising kicks. I'm not really sure how to balance that. But it still seems like people are running away from a downed opponent. You can't get away in time in some situations. I know characters have some options against them but I don't know how effective they are. I use Kasumi so I'll usually jump over their kick or do her charge move. Charge moves can be countered though but adding a few recovery frames rising kicks could make charge moves more useful against them.
I think that making a per-character thread isn't out of the question rather than expecting people to dig through giant threads.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Played the demo with Cyberevil last night.
My thoughts are that its better than doa 4, and worse than just about every other fighting game. Buffering system is still far too open and i was getting counters when i wanted to simply backdash into a block.
Counters still do too much damage in general and are absolutely retarded in stun. It's still possible to win the game with countering being a large part of how you play. It's the same guessing game it always was, only now it's easier since its 3 point. Anyone who actually thinks this is viable as a competitive game in its current incarnation is suffering from brain damage. I highly recommend exposing yourselves to something that actually takes skill.
Needless to say, this game has deteriorated itself to a rental for me at best. I'll be sticking to soul calibur.
My thoughts are that its better than doa 4, and worse than just about every other fighting game. Buffering system is still far too open and i was getting counters when i wanted to simply backdash into a block.
Counters still do too much damage in general and are absolutely retarded in stun. It's still possible to win the game with countering being a large part of how you play. It's the same guessing game it always was, only now it's easier since its 3 point. Anyone who actually thinks this is viable as a competitive game in its current incarnation is suffering from brain damage. I highly recommend exposing yourselves to something that actually takes skill.
Needless to say, this game has deteriorated itself to a rental for me at best. I'll be sticking to soul calibur.
x Sypher x
Active Member
Don't forget to tell TN that on their special feedback page lol.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Help and feedback was offered. At some point though, team ninja has to take responsibility for their own game.
I'm not going to be responsible for this train wreck, especially when more than half the community is fighting progress with ignorance and seems to want a bad game.
I've got other venues to keep me challenged. Let DOA remain an island for the egotistical and deluded. If it grows up, great. But this "game" is not my problem anymore.
I'm not going to be responsible for this train wreck, especially when more than half the community is fighting progress with ignorance and seems to want a bad game.
I've got other venues to keep me challenged. Let DOA remain an island for the egotistical and deluded. If it grows up, great. But this "game" is not my problem anymore.
x Sypher x
Active Member
I really hope this game will turn out great before the end of the world...lol XP I'm not very superstitious, just felt like throwing in a joke.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
This is what I've been saying since the demo released. Very few people here seem to understand that.
NG3 did not deserve a 3/10. IMO that IGN review was bad, written by someone who either didn't put enough time into the game, or didn't express his opinions well enough in the review. Based on the text of the review, it should've been scored 5/10 or 6/10.
the problem with DOA is that it has its own set of rules and people just dont want to accept it for that. they want every fighter out there to play like street fighter. they just dont understand that the game works absolutely differently and its rules and mechanics differ in terms of what holds higher priority than what.
I would hate to see the game lose its identity like what happened to soul calibur : EX moves (brave edge), supers (critical edge), giving you a pat on the shoulder for losing and having one round to go by giving you 1 extra bar, the fact that they butchered guard impacts (they not only cost half a bar now but the input is totally crap as well its <+A+B+K even though it looks like an offensive GI that was in every calibur before that, they tried to add a parry system which although maybe considered good by some is just not as useful as a GI because the window is so small it just isn't very practical except for certain moves that have a long active window and are slow, and worst of all increasing the ammount of unshakable stuns making combos last so damn long with no way out its irritating (a stupid reward for getting a simple dumb hit confirm). everything in that games mechanics was designed to appeal to the SF4 croud ... and look what happened. although the game is considered "SOLID" and i agree to an extent, it has disappointed every old calibur player one way or the other, in addition to miserably faling in the market. I spoke with Daishi himself at the euro soul calibur tourney here in london jast a few weeks back (yes i do speak japanese) and he kept telling me the game didnt do well in terms of sales and it performed below expectations and because of this there will be no other update or a "better version" or a sequal in plans for a really long time if ever after the one we just recieved. and then he was on about how he was kind of rushed and how alot could have been handled differently and how he regrets somedecisions in the game ... etc.
people to this day get on MK9 (despite what people think yes it is a viable fighter and yes just like every other game it has its own rules) ... and say something like, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ? WHY IS THERE A BLOCK BUTTON IN A 2D GAME ? i find that very ignorant as that was the case since the birth of the franchise. just because a game doesnt follow a set of rules you're accustomed to doesnt make it a BAD game or a non-viable game. any game can be viable! and even though the crowd might not be the same.
there are places to this day that hold highly competitive smash brothers tourneys ... now personally i dont even understand how that game is even seen as a fighter, but then again it has its crowd , its rules, its fan base, and to them it is quite a solid game and i respect that.
DOA is a fighting game. and it has its own rules:
- you can Hold during certain types of stun but it is not as loosely put as you may think.
- Holds deal damage, if that bothers you then dont make stupid decisions mid match! it is where the mind game is.
- throws are breakable.
- it has the most interactive environments than any fighter out there and the environment is usually looked at as the 3rd opponent. (unlike in games like sfxt which has backdrops that serve no purpose apart from being too colorful and distracting).
- it has an 8 way run type of movement and you need to hold H to crouch or jump.
- blocking can be done in 2 ways in this game, by either holding back or the H button.
- moves can be (Hold) canceled into each other for further extending combos and adding to the mixup.
... all the above are things that make DOA what it is. asking for something which is part of its core mechanic to be taken away or changed drasticly will only result in another "soul calibur" identity crisis and it will lose its personality. DOA5 has done a great job so far in creating a very nice balance between what worked best in all its previous versions:
- even though holds are back to 3 point based holds, the amount of limbo stun situations you get are alot so you really need to guess right or you'll get stuffed.
- adding the "advanced" holds has to be rewarded because it is an accurate read, especially considering how vital mid attacks are for the cast.
- the combo potential has been signifficantly reduced (characters wigh more and cant be juggled as high as before except in very limited situations, add to that the effect of walls has been signifficantly reduced as well as you are not only considered airbourne now you hit the ground after 3-4 hits max ) this gave the game a much nicer flow in a sense that the combos are now nice and short making you have to pace yourself weather you were on the offensive or defensive.
- despite what people think, power blows are quite slow in relation to other moves in the game, and are not as easy to land in high level play, plus they are extremely easy to punish if you just throw it out. add to that the fact that the sequence itself is not very long, which doesnt break the flow of the game as I had previously thought.
- the fact that the terrain changes adds an amazing new dimension to the game which no other fighter has done before as you have to recalculate your combo plan and capitalize on the situation for max damage.
- adding frame data, and on the go move list, and easily customizable layouts etc. are all little things that just make the game that much better.
i think team ninja has done a great job so far and I think its a very viable fighter. it is just different and you need to be a little more open minded about that.
soul calibur has AIR CONTROL for crying out loud. would you complain about that as well ? it is a core mechanic in how that game flows and you need it to put a cetrain restriction on the damage of launches. however, in that game some moves are air controllable and some arent. not having air control AT ALL will more or less ruin the game. and the same can be said about DOA and mid stun holds.
having holds mid stun keeps the fighting fresh as no two combos will be the same mid match and no two similar combos will have similar outcomes. you always have to plan out your setups and change it up weather you were on the defensive or the offensive. and like i said before , especially in DOA5, it is not as freely allowed as you think, and theres nothing you can do after a limbo stun, an air-launch, hitting a wall, or being hit from the back. or would you rather have a game like sfxt with combos that have no way out of on hit, deal a crap ton of damage, and are all essentially a reward for starting a dumb and simple LP or LK mashed hit confirm till they get the hit? and the combo ALWAYS LOOKS THE FRICKEN SAME ... if thats your thing then maybe DOA isnt for you.
I would hate to see the game lose its identity like what happened to soul calibur : EX moves (brave edge), supers (critical edge), giving you a pat on the shoulder for losing and having one round to go by giving you 1 extra bar, the fact that they butchered guard impacts (they not only cost half a bar now but the input is totally crap as well its <+A+B+K even though it looks like an offensive GI that was in every calibur before that, they tried to add a parry system which although maybe considered good by some is just not as useful as a GI because the window is so small it just isn't very practical except for certain moves that have a long active window and are slow, and worst of all increasing the ammount of unshakable stuns making combos last so damn long with no way out its irritating (a stupid reward for getting a simple dumb hit confirm). everything in that games mechanics was designed to appeal to the SF4 croud ... and look what happened. although the game is considered "SOLID" and i agree to an extent, it has disappointed every old calibur player one way or the other, in addition to miserably faling in the market. I spoke with Daishi himself at the euro soul calibur tourney here in london jast a few weeks back (yes i do speak japanese) and he kept telling me the game didnt do well in terms of sales and it performed below expectations and because of this there will be no other update or a "better version" or a sequal in plans for a really long time if ever after the one we just recieved. and then he was on about how he was kind of rushed and how alot could have been handled differently and how he regrets somedecisions in the game ... etc.
people to this day get on MK9 (despite what people think yes it is a viable fighter and yes just like every other game it has its own rules) ... and say something like, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ? WHY IS THERE A BLOCK BUTTON IN A 2D GAME ? i find that very ignorant as that was the case since the birth of the franchise. just because a game doesnt follow a set of rules you're accustomed to doesnt make it a BAD game or a non-viable game. any game can be viable! and even though the crowd might not be the same.
there are places to this day that hold highly competitive smash brothers tourneys ... now personally i dont even understand how that game is even seen as a fighter, but then again it has its crowd , its rules, its fan base, and to them it is quite a solid game and i respect that.
DOA is a fighting game. and it has its own rules:
- you can Hold during certain types of stun but it is not as loosely put as you may think.
- Holds deal damage, if that bothers you then dont make stupid decisions mid match! it is where the mind game is.
- throws are breakable.
- it has the most interactive environments than any fighter out there and the environment is usually looked at as the 3rd opponent. (unlike in games like sfxt which has backdrops that serve no purpose apart from being too colorful and distracting).
- it has an 8 way run type of movement and you need to hold H to crouch or jump.
- blocking can be done in 2 ways in this game, by either holding back or the H button.
- moves can be (Hold) canceled into each other for further extending combos and adding to the mixup.
... all the above are things that make DOA what it is. asking for something which is part of its core mechanic to be taken away or changed drasticly will only result in another "soul calibur" identity crisis and it will lose its personality. DOA5 has done a great job so far in creating a very nice balance between what worked best in all its previous versions:
- even though holds are back to 3 point based holds, the amount of limbo stun situations you get are alot so you really need to guess right or you'll get stuffed.
- adding the "advanced" holds has to be rewarded because it is an accurate read, especially considering how vital mid attacks are for the cast.
- the combo potential has been signifficantly reduced (characters wigh more and cant be juggled as high as before except in very limited situations, add to that the effect of walls has been signifficantly reduced as well as you are not only considered airbourne now you hit the ground after 3-4 hits max ) this gave the game a much nicer flow in a sense that the combos are now nice and short making you have to pace yourself weather you were on the offensive or defensive.
- despite what people think, power blows are quite slow in relation to other moves in the game, and are not as easy to land in high level play, plus they are extremely easy to punish if you just throw it out. add to that the fact that the sequence itself is not very long, which doesnt break the flow of the game as I had previously thought.
- the fact that the terrain changes adds an amazing new dimension to the game which no other fighter has done before as you have to recalculate your combo plan and capitalize on the situation for max damage.
- adding frame data, and on the go move list, and easily customizable layouts etc. are all little things that just make the game that much better.
i think team ninja has done a great job so far and I think its a very viable fighter. it is just different and you need to be a little more open minded about that.
soul calibur has AIR CONTROL for crying out loud. would you complain about that as well ? it is a core mechanic in how that game flows and you need it to put a cetrain restriction on the damage of launches. however, in that game some moves are air controllable and some arent. not having air control AT ALL will more or less ruin the game. and the same can be said about DOA and mid stun holds.
having holds mid stun keeps the fighting fresh as no two combos will be the same mid match and no two similar combos will have similar outcomes. you always have to plan out your setups and change it up weather you were on the defensive or the offensive. and like i said before , especially in DOA5, it is not as freely allowed as you think, and theres nothing you can do after a limbo stun, an air-launch, hitting a wall, or being hit from the back. or would you rather have a game like sfxt with combos that have no way out of on hit, deal a crap ton of damage, and are all essentially a reward for starting a dumb and simple LP or LK mashed hit confirm till they get the hit? and the combo ALWAYS LOOKS THE FRICKEN SAME ... if thats your thing then maybe DOA isnt for you.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
When you have a game that relies on guessing right every time you do something, no one will want to play it competitively. People don't want to put time into a game where people can beat you by guessing.
This demo is still: Guess for stun, then guess again for next stun or launch. And because launchers are generally mid, 3 point holds kill them.
This demo is still: Guess for stun, then guess again for next stun or launch. And because launchers are generally mid, 3 point holds kill them.
ShinMaruku
Well-Known Member
If it's fallen to a rental I would say not even rent it I'd say don't get it. much stronger message.
I'd stick to KOF myself it's the 'best' fighting game out there when put to fundamentals.
If they want this to be good they need to change counters and tighten timing. Hell shorten the counter window if they want that to be in it.
They also need to make counters situational. If they did that then most issues with counter go away.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Stop playing it like DoA4.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I'm going to break this post down, because there's a considerable amount of incorrect information here.
People like DOA. It sells very well. We aren't talking about those people. We're talking about the competitive players and having a strong tournament scene for DOA5. In order for that to happen, DOA can no longer rely heavily on guessing or reward a mistake by giving the defender another chance to guess right and escape punishment.
As I've said many times, nothing has to change about the current state of DOA5 in terms of counterhold windows and all of that. All you need to do is add an additional layer on top of the standard DOA system mechanics that allows for competitive players to get around the system.
For the record, I'm not a fan of competitive Street Fighter. I think it's a great game and I completely understand why people enjoy playing it at a high level, but I'm a 3D guy at heart and I just don't enjoy playing competitive SF.
First off, SC5 still plays like SC. The addition of BE attacks has not changed the game AT ALL. The addition of CE attacks is a minor change, but only because CEs have invincibility frames. If all CEs GI'd, instead of having invincibility frames, I'd have no issue with them. However, even with my gripes about CEs, the game still plays like SC. As I said, I do not enjoy SF, but I love SC5... much more than I enjoyed SC4 even.
Everything you've said here is the viewpoint of a casual player. GIs are fine in SC5. They use meter, which isn't a big deal, and most characters have non-meter GIs as well. Just Guarding works very, very well... almost too well. It's most certainly not limited to slow attacks or attacks with a long active window. I can use JG almost exactly like a GI.
I have not heard a single competitive player have issue with SC5 game mechanics (pre-patch). The only issues I've heard are from the character balancing because they removed a lot of stances/attacks from SC4. But even with these gripes, people still really enjoy the game.
This is due to the timing of the release.
1. The game was rushed. Honestly, DOA5 kind of feels like it's in the same boat at the moment.
2. The game released immediately after the holiday season (when no one has money), on the same day as FF13-2, and just before SFxT. That's pretty much the worst possible time to release SC5. Despite this, the game still sold 300k in the US. Below expectations, but that's not the game's fault.
I've never heard a competitive player complain about a block button. Soul Calibur has a block button and people play that competitively with no complaints. Also, I'd like to point out that MK9 has problems outside of the block button, but that hasn't stopped it from having WAY more tournaments than DOA has ever had and being at Evo two years in a row. Clearly, MK9 is in a much better position than DOA at the moment.
This is an interesting comparison. In order to make Smash a viable tournament game, the competitive community had to create almost a completely new game. They were able to do this because of the freedom the game allows in it's options.
If DOA had similar options to adjust the gameplay, we'd have a competitive fighter on our hands.
If air control was removed from SC, it wouldn't impact the game very much. The combo system would only need a slight change to compensate. As it stands, air control doesn't change much anyway. You still have guaranteed combos. The same cannot be said about counters in DOA.
Have you watched high level DOA? It's just like any other fighting game at a high level. The same setups into the same combos. This is how fighting games work at the highest level.
Translation: You have to keep guessing.
I think perhaps you should learn how to play SFxT before you berate it. There's a lot more going on than just mashing LP or LK for a hit confirm.
When the game no longer plays like DOA4, we'll stop playing it like DOA4.
Example: Why is it that free canceling is unsafe, but finishing your string is not? Because they want you to have the "guessing game" at the end of a string and give the defensive player more opportunities to counterhold.
People like DOA. It sells very well. We aren't talking about those people. We're talking about the competitive players and having a strong tournament scene for DOA5. In order for that to happen, DOA can no longer rely heavily on guessing or reward a mistake by giving the defender another chance to guess right and escape punishment.
As I've said many times, nothing has to change about the current state of DOA5 in terms of counterhold windows and all of that. All you need to do is add an additional layer on top of the standard DOA system mechanics that allows for competitive players to get around the system.
For the record, I'm not a fan of competitive Street Fighter. I think it's a great game and I completely understand why people enjoy playing it at a high level, but I'm a 3D guy at heart and I just don't enjoy playing competitive SF.
First off, SC5 still plays like SC. The addition of BE attacks has not changed the game AT ALL. The addition of CE attacks is a minor change, but only because CEs have invincibility frames. If all CEs GI'd, instead of having invincibility frames, I'd have no issue with them. However, even with my gripes about CEs, the game still plays like SC. As I said, I do not enjoy SF, but I love SC5... much more than I enjoyed SC4 even.
Everything you've said here is the viewpoint of a casual player. GIs are fine in SC5. They use meter, which isn't a big deal, and most characters have non-meter GIs as well. Just Guarding works very, very well... almost too well. It's most certainly not limited to slow attacks or attacks with a long active window. I can use JG almost exactly like a GI.
I have not heard a single competitive player have issue with SC5 game mechanics (pre-patch). The only issues I've heard are from the character balancing because they removed a lot of stances/attacks from SC4. But even with these gripes, people still really enjoy the game.
This is due to the timing of the release.
1. The game was rushed. Honestly, DOA5 kind of feels like it's in the same boat at the moment.
2. The game released immediately after the holiday season (when no one has money), on the same day as FF13-2, and just before SFxT. That's pretty much the worst possible time to release SC5. Despite this, the game still sold 300k in the US. Below expectations, but that's not the game's fault.
I've never heard a competitive player complain about a block button. Soul Calibur has a block button and people play that competitively with no complaints. Also, I'd like to point out that MK9 has problems outside of the block button, but that hasn't stopped it from having WAY more tournaments than DOA has ever had and being at Evo two years in a row. Clearly, MK9 is in a much better position than DOA at the moment.
This is an interesting comparison. In order to make Smash a viable tournament game, the competitive community had to create almost a completely new game. They were able to do this because of the freedom the game allows in it's options.
If DOA had similar options to adjust the gameplay, we'd have a competitive fighter on our hands.
If air control was removed from SC, it wouldn't impact the game very much. The combo system would only need a slight change to compensate. As it stands, air control doesn't change much anyway. You still have guaranteed combos. The same cannot be said about counters in DOA.
Have you watched high level DOA? It's just like any other fighting game at a high level. The same setups into the same combos. This is how fighting games work at the highest level.
Translation: You have to keep guessing.
I think perhaps you should learn how to play SFxT before you berate it. There's a lot more going on than just mashing LP or LK for a hit confirm.
When the game no longer plays like DOA4, we'll stop playing it like DOA4.
Example: Why is it that free canceling is unsafe, but finishing your string is not? Because they want you to have the "guessing game" at the end of a string and give the defensive player more opportunities to counterhold.
ShinMaruku
Well-Known Member
Frame advantage must first be reestablished before anything else can be dealt with.
Make counters a gimmick make them situational. Peole should not get a free thing out of committal (SF4 had that too fuckin FADC) you want to avoid getting into a combo play smarter and attack properly.(Although that's harder said than done fighting games are an unforgiving genre and that is at the crux of doa's design they want something forgiving out of something that is not and the changes they make compromise what is fundamental)
Make counters a gimmick make them situational. Peole should not get a free thing out of committal (SF4 had that too fuckin FADC) you want to avoid getting into a combo play smarter and attack properly.(Although that's harder said than done fighting games are an unforgiving genre and that is at the crux of doa's design they want something forgiving out of something that is not and the changes they make compromise what is fundamental)