The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
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TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
You're "pretty sure"? Or have you broken it down side by side and played both of the characters on a serious level? I don't mind if you haven't been to tournaments or an offline spot but if you at least know the frames, damage, and safety (etc.) that you're talking about by heart, then I'll listen completely.
It's a risk because believe it or not whiffed holds from neutral aren't [that] slow to recover. Here's the thing though, the damage that you get from a NH Izuna Hold is much more than you get from a hi counter 6p which allows Hayate to GUESS again, higher than any throw in Hayate's arsenal that doesn't exceed 10 frames (on hi counter), and Hayate's punishment throw that would take care of the better option than the hold... which would be ... oh what do you ya know, guarding. 72 damage isn't much of a difference, but a difference is a difference and Busa exceeds it.
On the subject of the move itself, 6p will not stun on NH and it will put him at disadvantage (-12) and like I said, it won't grant him a NC follow up from 6pk or 6pp which are both unsafe on block so a simple T or 6T (preferably) will finish the job and make it so that Hayate will have to wonder before checking sidestep with it. It's a beautiful thing actually. Even if you switched out 7k and didn't get it blocked (-30 so free 214p, 33p, combo), it's only 45 damage, and 67 if you're on close hit. The hold itself STILL exceeds that damage.
So risk 67 - 72 or chip damage on hit with -12 disadvantage damage on hit vs getting 75 - 112 damage... from one guess and training oneself to finish a izuna hold input? Risk vs Reward.
The reason I stress about those two moves so much is that once Hayate gets pressured to not use those moves, K and 6p come into play or Hayabusa. 12 frame high kick will shut down 6p by itself, because as a high kick, it does more damage naturally. There will be no trade. 6p will be counter blown, and even if that Hayate reaction low holds, KP is another move in the equation, and surprisingly this move has a good stun. (+21, +13 on highest SE which is a 50/50, they high hold or you get a free jab or a deep ass stun).
See one thing people fail to understand is the importance of high to mid mix-ups that stun in this game. Someone like Ayane can get away with not having one because she's so damn good in general... but Hayate's high to mid mix-ups do not stun. They simply knock back putting Hayate into a wake up situation or a reset to neutral. Great now we have to start over again because someone wanted to low hold. Not even a jab, 6p will work as good as KP from Hayabusa, or P2P for JL, P6P for brad, etc. This is where Hayate's stun game starts to falter in comparison to Hayabusa's.
6p or Busa is 13 frames. Basically, if KP won't stop Hayate's options, this will. That leaves Hayate with a jab that's... oh... +2 on CH hit and disadvantage on NH. Great, now what?
Untrue again. Hayate DOES win in the speed game... only because of 7k being the ultimate win though they both have their jab to shut down things.
He does not win in the spacing game, at range Busa gets stronger mix-up because not only does he have virtually the same mix-up game as Hayate on mid-ranged moves, but he also can play the long-ranged game better if done correctly. Hayate is not about staying away. He WAS about coming in hard but now other characters can do what he does in a better way.
As for punishment, Busa can punish more moves and it's a lot less stressful because of his overall grab damage (Busa 6T, 50 damage, Hayate 6T, 42 damage and 236T which is harder to get out on reaction punishment than 6T comes in at 72 points of damage at ALL times).
One grab does not level out a situation. A thousand more opportunities to throw makes a WAY bigger difference. I can't tell you how many -7 moves and -5 moves have made the match so much easier. Hell Hayabusa can punish Hayate's newest and best ranged safe move (Wind Dash K) and that throw is guaranteed because why? You guessed it, 4 frame neutral back throw, and the guard stun is so long to recover that you can react CONSISTENTLY to it, the worst part is the risk of wind dash k becomes more than the reward.
So yea I don't buy that punishment becomes 10x better for Hayate just because his grab that can punish the same things as Hayabusa is 22 points of damage more and harder to input than a simple 6T for 50 damage (+wall damage)
6PK is punishable in general but only by neutral throws. Grapplers get free 6T's all day meaning I can't check sidestep with it on him over and over which becomes a hassle.
On hit it's amazing. 80 damage raw from the full combo on lightweights. As for Ayane she gets neutral on block and tracking off of 3h+k which grants her a free launch and combo as well. Hayate should have safety on P+K but he doesn't, he's at -13
Not necessarily. Hayabusa's sit-down stuns are a bit easier to work with. 214P can be used in stun off of 6k which will guarantee a launcher or it can even be used as a mix-up, not to mention that sitdown stun is a frame trap on block (+2). Hayate's SD stuns are all unsafe on block and knockdown in stun or they require you to guess twice to get to them. BT 4k requires you to get into BT with 4p or 4k and 3PP is a two hit string, meaning you guess twice. 214P only guarantees the follow up in the string as a launcher but requires the opponent to be crouching and at range. If you're crouching at range, then you deserve more than a weak launch like that. Hayabusa's other SD stun that guarantees little to nothing (at least a 3p threshold break launch) is -1 on block.
How is that even, not to mention Ryu's stuns are deeper, exceeding +40 sometimes because of the fact that his launchers a slight bit slower, fastest on coming in at 18 frames, or 15 frames if you count the 6kk which requires you to guess twice but it's mid high, not mid mid like 3PP (which guarantees a 33K for Hayate). Hayabusa's possible damage output is higher than Hayate's as well because of his air throw which can just be used as an ender period off of any launch to give at least as much as Hayate's BNB pp6pk.
Hayate lacks good stuns as well, like limbo and faint. I'm pretty sure that I heard there was supposed to be a faint stun or Ryu but I haven't seen it so I don't believe it. What I do know is he gets a limbo off o Ongyoin PP into a guaranteed BT cancel 4k, for a free Ongyoin K, 8p, Air Throw.
Hayate wins on launcher speed like I said before. His launch heights are... pretty good actually. If he does land his good sitdown stuns, he'll probably be chunking you for at the least 72 damage, depending on the initial hit. Hayate also has solid enough stuns to get launchers off of of some good moves so he's definitely not defenseless in the stun game and the 2 in 1 launchers off of 4k6k or guessing after 4p (granted you're at the end of the threshold) will give you a 50/50 between 6p+k~p+k and 6p+k~k. It's nice.
On the subject of NH launchers, like Tenryuga said 8p, 33k, 8k. 8p is pretty good but unsafe and even though there's follow ups it involves commitment. 33K is the same deal, commitment and even as a block string I get held out of the air ONLINE. If it can happen online and offline, it's probably not good... and raw 8k? Please. >_>
On that note, Hayate only has a safe threshold breaking launcher but that move isn't even safe against Hayabusa (wind dash K), and once again, you have to break the threshold to get that launch.
Hayate does have launcher speed over Ryu. 15 frames with 33k. That's a strong suit.
I could go on and on, but I won't.
It isn't finished. That's why I said in the skype group people should come post their numbers if they played her.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
C'mon bro ur making it sound like its much more difficult than it actually is. Hayabusa is relying on reads to get those Izuna's out and his spacing tools aren't that much different that Hayate's. At the end of the day in a spacing situation they both have what they need to come at each other. And you may not like Hayates 236T but at the end of the day he's taking 72 points. That's almost 30% health because you screwed up. While its true that Hayabusa has more opportunities to punish due to his faster throws you can't deny Hayate doesn't have a scary punishment option. You say Hayate isn't about staying away but you have to remember that Hayate is a balanced character best played at mid range. He has good spacing options and his pressure is good if you're not afraid to take risks which you shouldn't be anyway because no matter what Hayate does it's a damn risk. Hayate is far too unsafe to be in ones face 24 / 7 and his spacing options are not good enough for him to be turtling. In any matchup he has to find the right ratio of both to pull wins in DOA5. Imo Hayate is one of the best footsie characters in this game and he must use those in his hunt for the walls (where Hayate shines).
Moving on Hayate doesn't have to make the reads Ryu does to get damage. You have to keep in mind that every time you have somebody blocking with Hayate a 236T can come at ANY moment. And if you are not ready for that that's 72 points of life gone. Most characters have to stun launch to get that. Hayate just needs to scare you into blocking and he has enough ways to do it vs Ryu with his 236K GB, 214K, 6P+KP and string GB options (even though this is a risk.), his sweep, his power blow guard break. Hell even 2p itself works because Ryu either has to jab, sidestep, or hold in fear of Hayate's 6P. Let's not forget what Hayate can do to people at the wall. He has so many wall splat options it's not even funny. 1PP, 9P / 9PP. 66P / 66PP. 3K. 6K. 8K. 6PK. 214K. 236K. 3H+KKP. 3PP. 33KK. 236P. SSP, 8P+KP. 6P+K P / K. Any moment you have somebody at the wall and they let go of guard those moves will have them kissing it. (I know you know this. This is for those who have no idea what Hayate has.)
I'm going to tell you why this is an even match up right now.
This is what Hayate has over Busa:
-Better Speed
-Better Footsies
-Better Pressure (GODLIKE at the wall.)
-Better Punishment grab and ability to grab "safely"
This is what Busa has over Hayate:
-Hold Damage (Which requires reads and or guessing. Good luck trying to do that in stun when I can just have you taking a Raijin or Nakiryu instead of that High, Mid P or whatever he has a izuna counter for.)
-Safer ways to approach at range
-Better stuns (Not like Hayate has bad stuns. But when you have a stun that guarantees stuff in a single shot unlike Hayate's 3PP and is safe it is undisputable that Busa has better stuns. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe Busa has a worthless sitdown stun unlike Hayate who has BT 4K.)
-Better indoors (Do I really have to explain this? Every single damn thing this guy has is a threat in home or temple of the dragon.)
So yeah 5-5 IMO. On Home it might be Busa 6-4. The point is these two both have the tools they need to deal with each other.
Kasumi vs Christie 5-5(already covered by me, Awesmic, & few others. Read my post 48-50)
Kasumi vs Sarah 4-6 for Kasumi (already covered. read my previous post around in 48-50 may be before them)
Kasumi vs Bass 7-3 Kasumi (already covered by Mr.Wah)
Kasumi vs Ayane (main also) 5-5 (already covered by me, Hajinshinobi, AP)
Kasumi vs Bayman 5-5. Bayman's tank roll is very important since not too many characters can knock him out of it. While Kasumi of course has the speed advantage. Rikuto's word on the even match is that as long as Bayman is good with his decisions, then the match is even.
Kasumi vs @152 6-4 (maybe 5-5) Kasumi. Now I may get heat for this 1, but I don't see how Alpha is even when Kasumi has plenty of guaranteed setups along with wake up kicks & holds not to mention she does more damage overall than Alpha. Alpha does win in the throwing department with 236236T & 8T (but you're in serious trouble if that misses) with the rest being the same throws as Kasumi's. Kasumi also have space tools that allows her to close in on Alpha (3P+K & so on moves).
Kasumi vs Hayate 6-4 Kasumi. This is about keeping Kasumi at bay in the space game for Hayate. Because if Kasumi gets in, it can get bad for him. Plus, Kasumi has a much easier time getting her damage than he does.
Kasumi vs Eliot 6-4 Kasumi. Eliot's 7P is 9i, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he can keep up with Sumi's pressure. Eliot has to rely on good reads in the match. But he does have a fast throw launcher.
Kasumi the rest of cast: I need to play a legit Akira, Kokoro, Jann Lee, Gen, Ryu, Pai, Helena, Lisa, Hitomi, Mila, Tina, Zack, Rig, Brad Wong & Lei Fang for those matches.
Kasumi vs Sarah 4-6 for Kasumi (already covered. read my previous post around in 48-50 may be before them)
Kasumi vs Bass 7-3 Kasumi (already covered by Mr.Wah)
Kasumi vs Ayane (main also) 5-5 (already covered by me, Hajinshinobi, AP)
Kasumi vs Bayman 5-5. Bayman's tank roll is very important since not too many characters can knock him out of it. While Kasumi of course has the speed advantage. Rikuto's word on the even match is that as long as Bayman is good with his decisions, then the match is even.
Kasumi vs @152 6-4 (maybe 5-5) Kasumi. Now I may get heat for this 1, but I don't see how Alpha is even when Kasumi has plenty of guaranteed setups along with wake up kicks & holds not to mention she does more damage overall than Alpha. Alpha does win in the throwing department with 236236T & 8T (but you're in serious trouble if that misses) with the rest being the same throws as Kasumi's. Kasumi also have space tools that allows her to close in on Alpha (3P+K & so on moves).
Kasumi vs Hayate 6-4 Kasumi. This is about keeping Kasumi at bay in the space game for Hayate. Because if Kasumi gets in, it can get bad for him. Plus, Kasumi has a much easier time getting her damage than he does.
Kasumi vs Eliot 6-4 Kasumi. Eliot's 7P is 9i, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he can keep up with Sumi's pressure. Eliot has to rely on good reads in the match. But he does have a fast throw launcher.
Kasumi the rest of cast: I need to play a legit Akira, Kokoro, Jann Lee, Gen, Ryu, Pai, Helena, Lisa, Hitomi, Mila, Tina, Zack, Rig, Brad Wong & Lei Fang for those matches.
Jaguar360
Well-Known Member
Because she's really fast, has powerful throws, powerful combos, and a good amount of offensive holds. However, she is probably the most unsafe character in the game and has bad holds (okay parries, though).
Jaguar360
Well-Known Member
I'll offer a Kasumi vs. Ryu matchup. I don't play Kasumi that often, so don't take this too seriously. I think it would be 6-4 in favor of Kasumi. Kasumi has a huge speed advantage, which forces Ryu to play more defensively. Kasumi has a much better striking game overall and has good mixups and range. Hayabusa has better throws and holds, but they are not much better and Kasumi has parries. Ryu is also much stronger than Kasumi, but hitting her at all is a problem due to her speed and agility. Heck, this could even be a 7-3 matchup, but that may be a bit extreme.
I played Master, but I didn't think of the matchup because I haven't ran into any other Busa's other than him or Brute.
Edit: I wanna agree with your post, but it's been a while since I've played Master in Atlanta when we were housing with Fred Campbell for FR16.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
I'll go on actually since I already started, using brute's claims. Hi Brute.
K is also hit-confirmable with its follow ups. If that wasn't enough though once again there's the advanced hold.
6p will shutdown anything else in Hayate's arsenal besides those 3 moves (p, 6p, 7k)
Hayate, having 3 hit strings really makes it easy to pressure you opponent to press buttons since it's normal to free cancel. Hayate relies on single hit strings that aren't always safe and more then often ask for him to block afterward rather than mix-up and guard pressure with longer strings... and frame traps which no one seems to ever talk about.
Ong 6p4 isn't great but it'll take care of slower characters and it's safe on block without the 4 so if you want to stop 2p's , you can. 33p4 has the same effect but 2p's will not hit it. Ong 6P+K will kill low punches from 33p4 too.
Guard Breaking with 66K is always scary for the opponent and it has misleading range as well. Fucking hell though, does anyone else agree that this should at the least be a launcher when the stun threshold is broken with it? I mean damn, can a nigga get a 66k (launch) Ong PPP, or 66K, Ong K, 8p, Air Throw? #BuffRyuALilBit
I like Ryu's guard breaks better because they actually open up the opponent for a free hit (launcher in some cases), but Hayate has a little bit more flexibility on his pressure, it's just not necessarily GREAT numbers.
But 6-4 isn't. You also didn't mention that Ryu can punish more things and on top of that he can punish Hayate's best safe moves. His overall throw damage is better despite the 236T 7k situation. It's a lot less effort to get a 6T on everything over a 236T motion with less opportunities to punish.
I stand by 6-4 Ryu, but I certainly won't say Hayate is defenseless, but Ryu CAN do a bit more...
On the subject of ranged game though. Both of these kids can be killed by free step when it comes to their stances and ranged moves (except Hayate's wind dash but we know the story about that. It's mid range only (if at all). Ryu does have more options though and if bad comes to worst, a simple 66 will a low you to at least get close... not to mention the oh so beautiful parry that... once again, no one is talking about.
So for options:
So if anything I think Ryu has the upperhand. My opinion, none of you have to agree but I'm just calling it the way I see it. I haven't seen a Hayate win a tournament yet, but we all know Ryu has.
I covered this. K disposes of 6p, and a jab will dispose of both. 6p's follow ups are completely punishable by Ryu as well and it's disadvantage on NH and block. The risk is higher then he reward.
K is also hit-confirmable with its follow ups. If that wasn't enough though once again there's the advanced hold.
6p will shutdown anything else in Hayate's arsenal besides those 3 moves (p, 6p, 7k)
I disagree. String mix-up becomes strongest when it has to do with what properties you get from certain moves (tracking, delay window, hit level, and the good old "how long is your string" game). 3ppp, Ongyoin PPP, KP, 4P Mixups and Ryu's Ongyoin stance in general is enough by itself.
Hayate, having 3 hit strings really makes it easy to pressure you opponent to press buttons since it's normal to free cancel. Hayate relies on single hit strings that aren't always safe and more then often ask for him to block afterward rather than mix-up and guard pressure with longer strings... and frame traps which no one seems to ever talk about.
Ong 6p4 isn't great but it'll take care of slower characters and it's safe on block without the 4 so if you want to stop 2p's , you can. 33p4 has the same effect but 2p's will not hit it. Ong 6P+K will kill low punches from 33p4 too.
Guard Breaking with 66K is always scary for the opponent and it has misleading range as well. Fucking hell though, does anyone else agree that this should at the least be a launcher when the stun threshold is broken with it? I mean damn, can a nigga get a 66k (launch) Ong PPP, or 66K, Ong K, 8p, Air Throw? #BuffRyuALilBit
I like Ryu's guard breaks better because they actually open up the opponent for a free hit (launcher in some cases), but Hayate has a little bit more flexibility on his pressure, it's just not necessarily GREAT numbers.
Similar but Ryu still exceeds him on damage, which I didn't expect. It's the air throw and shoho izuna ender that really makes the margin.
7-3 is fucking ridiculous. Damn right.
But 6-4 isn't. You also didn't mention that Ryu can punish more things and on top of that he can punish Hayate's best safe moves. His overall throw damage is better despite the 236T 7k situation. It's a lot less effort to get a 6T on everything over a 236T motion with less opportunities to punish.
I stand by 6-4 Ryu, but I certainly won't say Hayate is defenseless, but Ryu CAN do a bit more...
On the subject of ranged game though. Both of these kids can be killed by free step when it comes to their stances and ranged moves (except Hayate's wind dash but we know the story about that. It's mid range only (if at all). Ryu does have more options though and if bad comes to worst, a simple 66 will a low you to at least get close... not to mention the oh so beautiful parry that... once again, no one is talking about.
So for options:
- Ryu
- Mid-Range
- 33P (4 Makes it safe, and basically neutral as well as the high kick which resets to neutral and low sweep that gives a good stun on half hit/tip range, I wish it gave a good stun in general though)
- 214P (+2 on guard)
- 66K (surprising range and guard break or +6)
- 3H+K (+2 on guard)
- Ongyoin PPP (I'd never recommend this for general use but the second punch recovers in a reasonable amount of time and coves some distance. I really like it, It's also safe)
- Ongyoin 6P (4 makes it almost a frame trap, but it's safe in general)
- Ongyoin 6K
- Ongyoin 6P+K (pretty good range)
- Ongyoin 2K (will low crush for a few frames but it's bad... and the shortest mid ranged move he's got from Ongyoin
- Long-Range
- Ony 8P (+9), 8K(safe), and 8T as well as 66, to get behind the opponent. (All free steppable)
- Mid-Range
- Hayate
- Mid-Range
- 3H+KKP (predictable, but uninformed players can be shenaniganed to death..., weak stuns, can be backstepped usually and every hit is commited to)
- 214PPP/PPK (Better range but slow as ass and every hit is unsafe, not comparable 214p from busa or 3PPP)
- 236K (Yes. +1. I want more than that though. Regardless, great starter for guard pressure)
- 66P (Not as good as Kokoro's... and all the follow ups are interruptableto some extent but the funny thing is it's only the females that get consistent interrupts. The guys like Zack, JL, and Hayate himself cannot interrupt the same way that the girls can. I'll post about this some other day in the Hayate section)
- 214K (If it was a launcher still or a untechable knockdown, it'd be useful as fuck... buuuutttt it's not.)
- Long-Range
- Oh wait... he doesn't have any ._.
- Mid-Range
So if anything I think Ryu has the upperhand. My opinion, none of you have to agree but I'm just calling it the way I see it. I haven't seen a Hayate win a tournament yet, but we all know Ryu has.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Kokoro's defensive options suck. Any Kokoro player knows that. However, I can play defensively with her just fine. I have little trouble against someone like Kasumi or Pai with Kokoro. Christie is another story, and it's because of JAK. The whole low throw and Sabaki nonsense I already explained are irrelevant. But I guess you people really are too biased to look at the reality of the situation. You only look at the positives for Kokoro, and only the negatives of Bass. Kokoro has always been overrated in this community, so, what else can be expected...?
Let me ask you something. What is more realistic to land? Kokoro landing a low grab against Christie's JAK, or Bass landing an OH to stop Christie's attacks?
Well maybe you should stop trying to hit with snail moves and try grappling then with OHs, since Bass is a grappler...
And oyeah, one more thing.. Weight. I'll let you do some thinking for yourself.
It's funny how the arguments boil down to the exact same thing again, even when I've already addressed them multiple times. But yeah.. Everyone is always against my arguments. When the game launched, I argued that Helena was not bottom tier. Everyone insisted she was. Look at her now... Now I'm gonna wait for the "this is different".
I expected better from you, than following the herd.. I'll just say, the majority is always wrong.
Spam JAK, and you'll be successful against Kokoro.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
I apologize. I know it sounds that way, but I'm really just combating the generalized notions by most. Brute's given me straight up reasons before, and I've still disagreed but (no offense), I'm not really buying MBlue's... but like I say that's just me.
You're right though, his stuns are considerably better, but Hayate's launchers are more... accessible usually depending on what stun you use. On another note, Hayabusa and Kasumi share a 4h+k that works as a launcher, but it only guarantees stuff like a 3p (if Kasumi's even does that), which can give a threshold break launch into a air throw or pp4pk.
You missed throw damage on that list. 236T does not make Hayate's throw game superior, it just makes his 7 frame punishment better. It is better guard pressure, free 72 damage. That's great, approved. Lbsh though, Hayabusa can punish MORE with T and 6T which are both easier to throw out and once again, do more damage than Hayate's vanilla punishment throws and more specifically for this match Busa can punish Hayate's (best) safe moves that aren't 3k and 4kk. How often do you use 4kk? That's right, you don't because in the end even on hit it's not good like Kasumi's.
His Izuna drop extremely [easy] to get out and amazing on Hi Counter as well. It overtakes the Raijin and Nakiryu by a good amount of points higher.
Raijin? You know how hard the Raijin is on pad, so to get it consistently, you need a really good controller or a stick to pull it off consistently.
So Ryu works less as hard to get his throws because he's a grappler, I'd rather have a closer throw game to Ryu's and drop the whole 236T deal then get some more safety so I can rely on my strike game more rather than giving free chunks of 50 damage away everytime I try to poke. (buff talk)
Hayate's wall game is good though. Ryu can do the same broken shit with pp4p(delay)k though. I witnessed that against Paul_Mainville. Fuck that guy. He's pretty damn good lol. Regardless, Hayabusa wins at the wake up game anyway. It's also true that I stated what I said wrong. Hayate is NOW a character about footsies and patience while before he was about aggression, sort of running with his personality. He's aggressive and a lot of the time he just... fights because it's in his spirit, his blood. Now he's be patient, try to get them to the wall, then guess hard.
I'm not saying it's impossible and I know I write it that way, but like I said 6-4 is my standpoint and I won't falter from that until I find that I'm having some extreme trouble with Hayate against me, something extremely tough to deal with... know what I mean?
'Sup?
Hayate has two 12 frame mids, one of which leads into 6PP with has great lurch and decent stun properties. Ryu has only one 13 frame mid with zero lurch. Don't forget that strings also matter in a charatcer's speed. If Ryu wants to mix things up, he MUST free-cancel. Hayate can using string speed for mix-ups (addressed more in next quote).
The situations you get with Hayate are that low trips leave you at advantage rather than disadvantage. Ryu must end with 6PK, 4PK or his stupid ongyoin or he will be punished. For example, if Ryu's 1PK string could go into a mid punch like Hayate's and initiate a stupid guessing game every single time, it would be a much more effective move.
And you think Ryu is any different? I laid out his options before, and technically 6PK can be punished. He's really relying on that 4PK. PP2K isn't worth junk. As soon as someone sees that worthless toe-poke they know they can beat out most follow-ups and just intercept you.
Ong6P4 is good for intimidation, but not much else. Once someone realizes that nothing from ongyoin tracks, they can just circle-strafe at range and 2P up close. Ongyoin mainly works if your opponent is scared. Once they realize it's all smoke and mirrors, it's easy to shut down.
I'll bit, 33P4 is good. But, it's an 18 frame mid. Hayate's still got 12. 12 is faster than 18.
Most Ryu players don't like to be in ongyoin up close.
With 66K you get +6 and your fastest high as 12 frames and your fastest mid being 19, neither of which track.
Ryu is a fucking damage power-house. Ong6P on HiC is ridiculous.
Ryu does deal more damage, true, but he has to work harder for it in my experience. He is playing defensively with Izuna holds; there's no doubt about that in my mind.
I see where you're coming from, but I still say it favors Hayate. Ryu really has to be making perfect reads all day, whereas Hayate gets a bit more wiggle-room and freedom in approaches.
Parry is stupid. 2P it. Or if telegraphed just go for a HiC throw. Hayate can get good damage off that.
Gap-closing, Hayate is better. Ryu's 3H+K is fucking stupid with it's 2 frame advantage (esp. mixed with his snail speed). Literally everything Ryu's got can be safely negated by standing there like a tard and blocking (except ong8T but agai, ong->circle strafe to safety). +2 is really not that scary (same for 214P) and all his others leave him at disadvantage or ong at close range (again, a situation we don't want to be in).
Is Hayate similarly limited? No. 214PP and 3H+K have almost identical start-up animations making it very difficult to tell what to do on reaction. Further more, the 3H+K can be free-canceled like madness into throw baits, and has a tracking follow-up. He also has that running aerial kick combo which can be free-canceled to bait a throw on hit.
They're not safe, but let's be honest, neither Ryu or Hayate are safe on block. Hayate makes the opponent guess more than Ryu does.
If Master played Hayate, I'm sure he would have.
If you know a bunch of Ryus aside from arguably one of, if not the, best DOA player that are winning tournaments, go ahead and let me know.
Again, not trying to be rude or anything, but I stand by my opinion. It's a fairly even match-up. If anyone has a slight advantage, it's Hayate.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Ok. I choose to go my own way... Maybe people will hate me for it, but you can't please everyone.
Nah not yet. Chilled with him (Off topic) though lol.. But Yeah Him too. I don't think the match is 7-3. It's either 5-5 or 6-4 (Kasumi) but Hayabusa is a whole better since that patch hit. So 7-3 is definitely out of the discussion for Hayabusa vs Kasumi. But like I said before, I need to play a legit Ryu to get a precise answer for that 1. Just like the others I mentioned.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
no mus worst than 6-4? lol Zack vs. Leifang is so dumb...that is 7-3 to 8-2. And let's not bring in Genfu.
Zack vs. Kasumi? meg 6-4 Kasumi cruse you nine frame jab and pretty kasumi counter.
Zack vs. Kasumi? meg 6-4 Kasumi cruse you nine frame jab and pretty kasumi counter.