Free Step Dodge

Add the speed differences for 4K and 6P+K as well as 3K's NH stun and you've got a solid ranged stun game intiation game. (6P+K, 3K, 4H+K/6H+K and 2H+K).

He was "Good enough" in 4. Not perfect but he actually had what he needed to contend with the cast in 4. If he had those same tools in 5U he would probably be high tier. 6P+K was a Godsend, 4K was the ultimate "Nope" to anyone trying to pressure you out of disadvantage, 2H+K was a good opener, 3K was a sit down stun, I could go on.

But like I said, Hayate is just simple but that doesn't mean that he's great. The only reason he measures up better now is because a lot of the amazing characters were brought down a bit. Of course the teleports are nice though.

That's pretty true sad to say. Hayate himself got buffs to go alongside his nerfs so things ended up balancing themselves out whereas other characters were just flat out nerfed.

He's not that amazing of a character but it's astounding how much better he is than certain other characters. As things are now I wouldn't be above putting Ein in low tier.

Yea, 4K is even better now on NH since he actually gets a launch and a juggle. If they gave it the DOA4 Launch properties along side that (NH: 6KK, CH: 3P, 6KK, HCH: 3P, PP6PK, In stun: 6KK). That'd make it an incredible launcher again especially at 13i.

I actually have a colossal post coming at some point tonight in the "How are you playing Ein" thread. It will really pick your brain on how Ein should be played. It's time I gave a little depth and ideas on what he has now and improving it instead of making lists of changes or giving details on things he doesn't have.

There's a lot of tools that are kind of overlooked. PP2K/2K for example is very good for stun game at the wall. Why? The pushback is large but 46P, 236P, and 3K are reliable wall splats. Out in the open the same moves are available to get the free knockdown instead of just trying to use the frame advantage to try and get a not guaranteed hit...

If 4K gets speed up, it'll probably connect and force opponents to hold giving him the ability to play some more guessing games.

In DOA4 I used to chain 2K into 4K in strings, I'd love for that to be viable again but 4K's speed isn't the issue. 2K gives more pushback in 5 than it did in 4, that's the real issue, because 3P whiffs as well.

Heh, I assumed as much yet I thought that it was the norm for 3P to mix. Guess I was wrong, but that means he had a strong stun game low to rely on. I don't mind losing it if 4K works because that means 4K must be held, which means 50/50 on 2K, 4K or 2K, 33T.

This is generally the pattern for me as well. Get raped with Ein? Go to Hayate and dominate.

And it's not really even that anything about Hayate is specifically BETTER than anyone elses, it's just as the jack of all trades, he can play multiple ways very easily but he's still unsafe. His launchers kind of don't make sense to me either.

He's unsafe sure, but he's got range, can fight in CQC, has frame advantage, spaces well, closes gaps easily, pressures decent, has okay stun > launch, has decent damage output and has pesudo-guarantees that rape you if you aren't on the top of your slow escape game.

He's pretty freaking good. And this is from someone that thought he was trash when 5U first came out. I swore by Vanilla Hayate.

Hayate is godly good and yes, he has things that are just flat-out better than what others have. Particularly his spacing/range game and animations.

There's nothing godly about his build except for 3h+k NOW. In reality that's ONLY because they changed the system making slow escape harder and nerfed low holds (out of stun) so that if you do get hit, now he's not the only one commiting to the guessing game it creates.

His "spacing" game has a clear weakness which is sidestep and free step for some moves. How about we stop playing DOA4 in this game before we jump to the conclusion that Hayate is godlike. He's not, just everyone is toned down now.

A man of average build and ability becomes godlike in a nursing home. Compared to basically everyone else in 5U, Hayate is godlike.

Nothing compared to the rest is "godlike". He just doesn't completely suck at anything and along side that, like I said, the system changes effect everyone. To say Hayate is now godlike because of it completely makes no sense.

Lets be honest though Brute; You've always talked up Hayate because of the trouble you have dealing with him yet you've still refused to pick him up yourself and see what the deal is. I've played both Ryu and Hayate with a serious standpoint in mind and I saw the places and potential that both characters carry by studying them both.

Your view on him is bogus.

I said Hayate was solid in 5 when everyone said he was shit tier. He was solid. I say he's well in the upper tier in 5U. He is. Whatever you think you're arguing changes none of that.