3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold

MASTER

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I see.

Well... guess we better pray for more limbo stuns.
There is no limbo stuns in DOA5 and there wont ever be until they fix the backturned slowescape properties. Get limbo stunned slowescape and then hold if you feel they are going to attack you or just block. same as any other stun. its actually better to hit them in the stomach since this at least means you took the blocking option away

MASTER
:hayabusa:
 

MrMoon360

Well-Known Member
May as well call the topic "3-point hold vs. 4-point hold vs. 6-point hold / Out of Stun vs. Not out of Stun".
Lol
I expected this title to draw attention to those things that also matter and are in heated debate.
Seems to have worked.
 

synce

Well-Known Member
I think 3's fine, and I probably won't even bother with advanced counters unless for a wake up kick or power blow. If the guy I'm fighting has a 33% chance of guessing right I'm not going to handicap myself with a 25% chance.

I'm always reading complaints here about what's wrong with DOA but are you guys developing games in any capacity? No. I think you should leave it to the people who do it for a living and don't look at things so subjectively. There are many different kinds of fans of DOA, TN can't just focus on pleasing the most hardcore 1%
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
I think they've said they want a competitive game.... Could be wrong. The game wont be very fun with 3 point hold, assuming they don't add more options for guaranteed combos; it's really shallow...
 

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
I think they've said they want a competitive game.... Could be wrong. The game wont be very fun with 3 point hold, assuming they don't add more options for guaranteed combos; it's really shallow...

when you think about how the game flows right now ... atleast from what we see from the alpha demos and promo vids .. there are quite a few ways to garantee damage ..

for one the stages are narrower .. making the interaction with the environment alot more ...
wall slams garantee a followup for more damage ... not like DOA4 where you could hold straight after .. and not like DOA3 where you had 1 free hit only and could go for a launcher and do something rediculous (especially in tag OMG) ... its a nice subtle extra bit of damage ..
then you have danger zones .. all of which garantee extended combos ..
plus theres that trashcan .. ive managed to comeup with setups for all 4 characters more or less to garantee an unblockable followup into the trashcan into a free launch .. into a nice airjuggle into the wall ...
then theres the slope .. from a launcher you can extend your combo a little bit more when you're at the higher end ...

you dont have the freedom you had in DOA4 because the stages are restricting making it a much more aggressive game .. this is why I think the 3 point holds work well with this ...
 

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
There aren't enough guaranteed options and you rely heavily on mids; it's very shallow.

then dont heavily rely on mids...
every character has at least one HIGH launch option ... plus trip stuns are very effective ...
plus the game has alot of emphasis on high low mixups not just mids ... mix it up ...

how does this make it shallow ? its worked perfectly fine in DOA3.1 and alot of people see that as the superior game over DOA4 ...
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
then dont heavily rely on mids...
every character has at least one HIGH launch option ... plus trip stuns are very effective ...
plus the game has alot of emphasis on high low mixups not just mids ... mix it up ...

how does this make it shallow ? its worked perfectly fine in DOA3.1 and alot of people see that as the superior game over DOA4 ...

It worked in 3.1 because the game allowed us to eliminate the option of the hold from many situations. DoA5 currently is extremely limited in that regard.
 

MrMoon360

Well-Known Member
It worked in 3.1 because the game allowed us to eliminate the option of the hold from many situations. DoA5 currently is extremely limited in that regard.
In comparison, yes. Unholdable situations have dropped.
However.
That may vary dramatically by each character now.
I don't think we've seen enough to judge this game thoroughly quite yet.
That individuality thing Shimbori's got going has me anxious to see the game in its entirety right now.
 

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
In comparison, yes. Unholdable situations have dropped.
However.
That may vary dramatically by each character now.
I don't think we've seen enough to judge this game thoroughly quite yet.
That individuality thing Shimbori's got going has me anxious to see the game in its entirety right now.

i dunno ...
it has me pretty excited to be honest ... as long as the core is still the same (the triangle) ... it should be interesting ..

but the sped up Powerblows has me a bit worried that they might become annoyingly thrown out in a spam fashion and i dont want that to be part of the core of the game... i wouldnt mind it slightly faster just by a few frames but not too fast .. becsuse i really feel like even at its current speed in the alpha build ... its quite useful ...

the other thing is tag ... god i am so worried about tag .... I have a feeling becauase of the launch limitations and stage restrictions ... tag might be heavily compromised ... not to mention powerblows sharing the same input now .. >__> ... (i think i just got a stomach ulcer ..)

i still hope they remove Powerblows from tag till one character dies ... just like they do with normal throws (they turn to tag throws till one dies)
 

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
You don't like the counters. Period. We get it grap3.
I don't dislike counters, I just dislike them in their current state, so does the entirety of the fighting game community. That's why I'm pushing so hard for significant change to them. I want DOA5 to be a better game so that it can be taken seriously and get people who have been turned away by DOA's flaws to come back and love the game as much as I have. Too often I see the comment that DOA "is a guilty pleasure" for people. These people would love DOA if not for a few fatal flaws. Why not fix these flaws so that the game isn't the joke of the entire fighting game community?

Its called reading.
It's not called "reading." Rikuto made an awesome series of posts here that everyone should read:

Everyone can be countered by everyone in zero frames and do crazy damage that typically outshines the attackers. That kind of ability takes away from a lot of the character individuality and matchup knowledge. Hence why everyone fought the same way in DOA 4 with some very slight variations.

At the end of the day, unless you were genfu, it was strike, stun, and guess between about two hit levels or a throw. The odds were in your favor slightly for a single strike launch, but the odds of failure increased with each stun extension. Let's say you're a godly character with great stuns for highs, mid punches, mid kicks. Fast low stuns can pretty much universally be slow escaped with ease, so we won't count those in this example. If it took 5 hits to reach the stun threshold required for your ideal juggle, and you had 3 valid ways to extend your stuns, you had at least a 33.3% chance per strike of being countered.

Think about that for a minute. Your strikes only do like 10-20 damage each, but they can be countered for 50-80 in stun generally. The odds are actually against you here for reaching maximum threshold as well, simply through probability and repetition. A blind man can be mashing buttons and he has the same odds of stopping you as the best DOA player in the world.

There was no logical or safe choice to make for attacking OR keeping yourself alive, even when you had made every correct read prior to putting your opponent in stun. To make things even better, about 90% of the strings in DOA 4 have a massive window where you can delay inbetween each strike. This means there is no way to tell when your opponents string has been canceled until he is already pretty much back to neutral and the pressure is even again.

If that isn't a guess oriented game, what is?
Reaction is flawed though. Reaction only helps with slower moves, and can be thwarted by fakeouts. Guessing has total consistency though. and with counter windows as big as they are, Why react when you can guess?

Odds dictate you have a pretty good chance of winning the stun game at the initial strike as the defender, and better odds as time goes on. Why screw up your mindset with unnecessary baggage? Certainly not how I played.

Sure, reading people works at lower levels, but when you get to the top everyone is either masking their intention or forcing a direct 50/50 with genfu. PL used to say the difference between DOA and Tekken is that in Tekken, you used as few moves as possible. In DOA, you use as many as possible to give you the illusion of randomness.

Everyone has to try to be as random as they possibly can be, or they'll be read like a low level player who doesn't recognize their own bad habits. Thus the game becomes nothing but probability.
Just want to reiterate, you've got it backwards. Mechanically there is nothing you can do to minimize guessing in DOA 4 besides going for single strike launches, and that in turn streamlines your guess into a 50/50. At high level the most guessing is taking place. At lower levels the guessing is minimized because low level opponents do the same thing over and over again.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Everything good is mid.

All you do is wait for mids and hold mid. Then the other person guesses that you're gonna hold and throw you or wait for it and launch you, or throw a high. Then you know they're expecting you to hold mid so you attack them when they try to throw you, but they knew you were thinking that and threw another mid or high.... That's all the game will turn into with 3 point holds.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Everything good is mid.

All you do is wait for mids and hold mid. Then the other person guesses that you're gonna hold and throw you or wait for it and launch you, or throw a high. Then you know they're expecting you to hold mid so you attack them when they try to throw you, but they knew you were thinking that and threw another mid or high.... That's all the game will turn into with 3 point holds.

If you look at it from the view of using the counter to "Get out" of a stun rather than reverse the damage flow, it's already nothing but a 50/50 at 3 point holds.

You either counter mid or you counter low, because countering low beats highs and lows.

It's pretty stupid, isn't it?
 

Arnell Long

Active Member
Even top 3 players fall for stupidest shit at the heat of the moment.

Lmao! So damn true.

And yea, I pretty much agree with the majority in the sense of having a 4 to 6 point hold with the compliments of a tweaked counter/stunned system.
 
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