6++ Gameplay Overhaul

[Rob]

Lol an essay guide delivered to my desk?

It is like it has to be so black and white.

Here is another question, "Why would you want or be in support of the mentality of everyone dropping their characters for others?". That makes no sense.

Why not have a system that can allow people to play the characters they like while executing their gameplan without being punished for it?

It is like you want less variability and less options.

Also, as an aside, this is a great read I suggest folks take a look at.

Man, I wish Brute was still posting on this site, one of the few intelligent posters that brought good discussion to the table.

A Brute Perspective on Sidestepping

The new sidestep system has to be one of the most polarizing gameplay mechanics in DOA6. There’s a reason for that, and it’s not as simple as “you need to get good and learn to adapt” or “they dodge everything and it’s unfair.” I think it’s a bit more complicated than that, so just hear me out...

www.freestepdodge.com

 

[Rob]

You're also contradicting yourself. By your logic meter should be kept in. Stop faulting the meter when you should be faulting yourself. "Just bait the meter dude."

It also seems to me you are implying it's against fundamentals. What I think a lot of players really mean is, "I want the game to play more like the old ones that I was better at".

Rather than, "Now it rewards fundamentals more".

I will say, however, I think SSA not doing the knockback anymore is a good change. Because that was a huge part of the problem. Thinking about it even more, I think the meterless SSA could even be fine as long as you can delay your strings to catch it.

 

[crapoZK]

Hm, could it be that Kasumi is nerfed without bounds and cancels? She got boosted a lot by being able to convert almost every kick into a launch-bound. Maybe a good time to dive back and git gud with Hayate lol. The comfort pick

I haven't checked up on Kasumi yet, but I think her bounds are still in the game. I could be wrong.
Either way I'mma try and offer some propositions that will make her actually have to use her brain to play the game, while giving her new strengths in this new system.

 

[Rob]

Either way I'mma try and offer some propositions that will make her actually have to use her brain to play the game, while giving her new strengths in this new system.

This is exactly why players should not be involved in any kind of character balance whatsoever.

Even players who are really good at fighting games can't just eyeball changes and tell if a character needs a change or not or if a game would be better balanced.

Even top players have made huge mistakes judging balance even just by looking at changes without playing.

Somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing can't just go make a bunch of wild changes and expect the game to be better balanced "because Kasumi requires a brain is better now" or whatever. You have no idea about the high-level ramifications of those changes.

Again, like revan, you are not trying to balance DOA6 so much as "here's how to make a different game, that crapoZK likes, instead". Ttry to balance the game, sure, but don't take away the shit that makes the character fun for those that play them.

And speaking of revan, this is why he can't balance the game. His viewpoint is one character and every other charaacter he is viewing externally. He doesn't play them and can't play them competently. Hell, he can't even play his own character above an average level.

There's nobody playing DOA6 today that can competently play all these characters and succeed with any of them at a tournament level.

I think it's hilarious arrogance to say "The game experts can't make a good meter system, then how can we possibly improve on one?" But then he thinks he can balance the game better than those same experts.

 

[Marteze]

This is exactly why players should not be involved in any kind of character balance whatsoever.

Even players who are really good at fighting games can't just eyeball changes and tell if a character needs a change or not or if a game would be better balanced.

Even top players have made huge mistakes judging balance even just by looking at changes without playing.

Somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing can't just go make a bunch of wild changes and expect the game to be better balanced "because Kasumi requires a brain is better now" or whatever. You have no idea about the high-level ramifications of those changes.

Again, like revan, you are not trying to balance DOA6 so much as "here's how to make a different game, that crapoZK likes, instead". Ttry to balance the game, sure, but don't take away the shit that makes the character fun for those that play them.

And speaking of revan, this is why he can't balance the game. His viewpoint is one character and every other charaacter he is viewing externally. He doesn't play them and can't play them competently. Hell, he can't even play his own character above an average level.

There's nobody playing DOA6 today that can competently play all these characters and succeed with any of them at a tournament level.

I think it's hilarious arrogance to say "The game experts can't make a good meter system, then how can we possibly improve on one?" But then he thinks he can balance the game better than those same experts.

I'm confused as to why you are still posting in this thread if this mod does not interest you. It's starting to feel like negativity and not constructive criticism on how to make this work. It seems like you don't think it works, which is a reasonable, so I'm not sure why you would continue to post here reiterating the same points.

 

[Moruma]

This is exactly why players should not be involved in any kind of character balance whatsoever.

Even players who are really good at fighting games can't just eyeball changes and tell if a character needs a change or not or if a game would be better balanced.

Even top players have made huge mistakes judging balance even just by looking at changes without playing.

Somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing can't just go make a bunch of wild changes and expect the game to be better balanced "because Kasumi requires a brain is better now" or whatever. You have no idea about the high-level ramifications of those changes.

Again, like revan, you are not trying to balance DOA6 so much as "here's how to make a different game, that crapoZK likes, instead". Ttry to balance the game, sure, but don't take away the shit that makes the character fun for those that play them.

And speaking of revan, this is why he can't balance the game. His viewpoint is one character and every other charaacter he is viewing externally. He doesn't play them and can't play them competently. Hell, he can't even play his own character above an average level.

There's nobody playing DOA6 today that can competently play all these characters and succeed with any of them at a tournament level.

I think it's hilarious arrogance to say "The game experts can't make a good meter system, then how can we possibly improve on one?" But then he thinks he can balance the game better than those same experts.

You’re spitting nothing but facts. People just think “you’re a kill joy” but Guiltigargar (creator of DOA3++) handled this a lot better than Rev. He was actually open to feedback (and was hesitant about making changes to characters he didn’t play. If he made changes, he requested feedback from players of those characters.

I am simply trying to understand the reason for the fan modification and all I understood was, “get used to it”. I don’t play Kasumi at all but for a ninja, she seems fairly balanced. Ryu Hayabusa has a 4F neutral throw and 6F forward throw, should we remove it since no other ninjas have that?

The reason I’ve heard is because other characters don’t have that property. Refloating is common in the game.
Her 2P is not a generic 2P, it’s a real move called Urachi-Jin. If the nerf doesn’t affect her that much, there should have been no reason to get rid of it.

Honestly, it sucks to be at somebody’s mercy for balance changes in a community mod.

If Rev does this with Kasumi, he is most likely doing this with other characters. It’s really odd that Ryu didn’t get touched. And many sidestep moves that were added have some sort of evasive action.

 

[Rob]

I'm confused as to why you are still posting in this thread if this mod does not interest you. It's starting to feel like negativity and not constructive criticism on how to make this work. It seems like you don't think it works, which is a reasonable, so I'm not sure why you would continue to post here reiterating the same points.

Negativity? That's funny because this entire mod is done out of hate for DOA6, rather than done out of love like Project M. The game's main problems aren't even about the meter, necessarily.

Just look at me as someone playing devil's advocate to someone else's hubris.

 

[Moruma]

I'm confused as to why you are still posting in this thread if this mod does not interest you. It's starting to feel like negativity and not constructive criticism on how to make this work. It seems like you don't think it works, which is a reasonable, so I'm not sure why you would continue to post here reiterating the same points.

People that truly care about the game will reply. It’s a matter of pride when players feel that their character or game is wrongfully modified. If everybody switches to this version of unofficial DOA that’s handled by some unknown user, what will happen to the players if Rev just decides to completely ruin the character?

 

[Rob]

You’re spitting nothing but facts. People just think “you’re a kill joy” but Guiltigargar (creator of DOA3++) handled this a lot better than Rev. He was actually open to feedback (and was hesitant about making changes to characters he didn’t play. If he made changes, he requested feedback from players of those characters.

I am simply trying to understand the reason for the fan modification and all I understood was, “get used to it”. I don’t play Kasumi at all but for a ninja, she seems fairly balanced. Ryu Hayabusa has a 4F neutral throw and 6F forward throw, should we remove it since no other ninjas have that?

The reason I’ve heard is because other characters don’t have that property. Refloating is common in the game.
Her 2P is not a generic 2P, it’s a real move called Urachi-Jin. If the nerf doesn’t affect her that much, there should have been no reason to get rid of it.

Honestly, it sucks to be at somebody’s mercy for balance changes in a community mod.

If Rev does this with Kasumi, he is most likely doing this with other characters. It’s really odd that Ryu didn’t get touched. And almost every sidestep move that was added is some sort of evasive action.

And dude that just begs the question, "What is the point of a community mod, if it isn't really for the community and is for myself and my buddies who hate DOA6".

I forgot to even bring up the fact that revan isn't entertaining any feedback. Obviously that just makes it worse.

And yes, that is exactly the message :"hit the lab and do something different." just as he said in the original post. Don't like the changes, tough shit.

 

[Gill Hustle]

Rev is planning updates FIRST let's see what's wrong.

This helps more if people actually play over being armchair quarterbacks. Smh

Like Phase is kinda strong now with changes but can we see how players adapt FIRST?!

 

[Rob]

Balancing game hard.

Luckily the game already exists and I can go play it.

 

[Moruma]

Rev is planning updates FIRST let's see what's wrong.

This helps more if people actually play over being armchair quarterbacks. Smh

Like Phase is kinda strong now with changes but can we see how players adapt FIRST?!

Haven’t you seen the way Rev has taken all this feedback? Not very good, the attitude seems arrogant.

Phase 4 wasn’t that bad in 6 but is not as good as she was in DOA5. Do you really think this one change suddenly bumps her way up the tierlist? I’m questioning if the lot of you actually put a lot of time into playing DOA6 with all these characters (not one or two) before touching this mod.

 

[Sotherius]

The community is already divided as it can get, and there is nothing significant about the PS4 version of the game. It doesn't even run at 60fps to my knowledge. For me I have more luck finding a match on the XBOX and I'll play on any of the systems. Let me see the player counter to the PS4 version.

My point is that there are still dedicated players playing there. With a game as niche as doa currently is, every player should matter.

Also, I find funny how you act like the 5 streamers in the US are the world authority of Dead or Alive. I thought this was an international forum were everyone could have a say, but you're dismissing people left and right that isn't a streamer you like.

 

[Gill Hustle]

So I'm gonna ask you guys with concerns/complaints have YOU downloaded the MOD.

Have you tested concerns?

Have you played other players?

Because if you have NOT, why should Rev or anyone else that has done all 3 take your concerns seriously?

 

[Full Cup Bounce]

I think it's important to understand the mission of this mod. What is the purpose of DOA6++ and why has it been developed to this end? So here I provide you with the mission statement from the original post:

I'm trying to make a better game than DOA 6

Now we can abstract from the changes implemented what Revan considers to be a better DOA6: A game completely devoid of what makes DOA6 unique in the first place. If you don't like how DOA6 plays at its core, then removing the meter will not solve your unfulfilled fantasies. If you don't like the meter, then you are reducing the game to a shallower product.

In that case, maybe DOA was shallow all along.

I'm trying to make a better game than DOA 6, not a perfect game, not even the best DOA. If you think one of the other games is better... they should be!

Here he even acknowledges that his own mod will not elevate this new form of DOA6 to be one of the best games in the series. So why are we even bothering with this if he thinks the other games will still be better products after this mod is finalized?

It seems Revan and his crew want to play a completely other game in the series, so they reject DOA6 and substitute their own mutation in the pursuit of experiencing the same game over and over again. The people who make up this part of the DOA community are against the series evolving or progressing in any way, so why should they be in charge of its future if all they desire is the past? All I see is people who want to play 2U or 5LR for the remainder of their lives. So why don't you go freaking play those games instead of perverting an experience others might enjoy?

This community's incessant bitching and, to quote Revan, scrub mentality for the last 3 years over a game that tried something new instead of the same stale formula is absurd and would be absolutely hilarious if I were detached from the franchise. If "better" is repeating what was already done in 2000, then maybe you should stay in 2000 and stop screwing with 2019's game.

 

[Gill Hustle]

I think it's important to understand the mission of this mod. What is the purpose of DOA6++ and why has it been developed to this end? So here I provide you with the mission statement from the original post:


Now we can abstract from the changes implemented what Revan considers to be a better DOA6: A game completely devoid of what makes DOA6 unique in the first place. If you don't like how DOA6 plays at its core, then removing the meter will not solve your unfulfilled fantasies. If you don't like the meter, then you are reducing the game to a shallower product.

In that case, maybe DOA was shallow all along.



Here he even acknowledges that his own mod will not elevate this new form of DOA6 to be one of the best games in the series. So why are we even bothering with this if he thinks the other games will still be better products after this mod is finalized?

It seems Revan and his crew want to play a completely other game in the series, so they reject DOA6 and substitute their own mutation in the pursuit of experiencing the same game over and over again. The people who make up this part of the DOA community are against the series evolving or progressing in any way, so why should they be in charge of its future if all they desire is the past? All I see is people who want to play 2U or 5LR for the remainder of their lives. So why don't you go freaking play those games instead of perverting an experience others might enjoy?

This community's incessant bitching and, to quote Revan, scrub mentality for the last 3 years over a game that tried something new instead of the same stale formula is absurd and would be absolutely hilarious if I were detached from the franchise. If "better" is repeating what was already done in 2000, then maybe you should stay in 2000 and stop screwing with 2019's game.

Haven’t you seen the way Rev has taken all this feedback? Not very good, the attitude seems arrogant.

Phase 4 wasn’t that bad in 6 but is not as good as she was in DOA5. Do you really think this one change suddenly bumps her way up the tierlist? I’m questioning if the lot of you actually put a lot of time into playing DOA6 with all these characters (not one or two) before touching this mod.

Talking with Xcal and Kwiggle yes with no break hold

 

[Gill Hustle]

Misquote was responding to Phase 4 being an issue

 

[Moruma]

Misquote was responding to Phase 4 being an issue

You are missing my point. Pretend that the new BT teleport doesn't exist, Phase 4 and many other characters are a huge problem without break hold since it replaced the need for older mechanics like stagger escape. In other words, the new move doesn't change much.

 

[Rob]

So I'm gonna ask you guys with concerns/complaints have YOU downloaded the MOD.

Have you tested concerns?

Have you played other players?

Because if you have NOT, why should Rev or anyone else that has done all 3 take your concerns seriously?

I have played with a friend of mine who is way better at the game than I am and is one of the strongest players on PC. Dude has a sick Lisa and Kasumi but can play the other characters very well.

We tested some shit at first and then took the games a little more "seriously" after that.

We both think the SSA is beyond busted. We were laughing our asses off on how we could "abuse" it. The lack of fatal rush is a mistake, maybe that should cost like 1/16 of meter so then the whole string costs 1/4. (Actually, Matt Ponton has some fantastic ideas for meter that I'd love to see implemented one day).

Every 8T is basically a glorified jump now because of the no pill stuff. My buddy was showing how he could clip through me on the floor, and if your timing is good enough you can jump over mofos. Speaking of jumping, man we were jumping over everything it was hilarious. Mai got a buff with being able to cancel into 9P.

Generally, we thought the changes were nice, but it made for an even boring game. The more you try to balance shit, the more boring games become. I disagree with the premise that DOA is a serious competitive fighting game but I ain't getting into that argument here. It's a game I enjoy pressing buttons in and feels good to play. Also, in it for the titties obviously lel.

 

[Rev_an]

Oh this is embarrassing I completely forgot core fighters for this existed…… I was more so talking about the option to choose how to input sidestep like double tapping the directional buttons instead of a dedicated button since that’s what I’m used to personally. Totally cool if that’s not possible or on your radar tho, I’d still play.

Rachel changes looking real nice… can’t wait to try later.

i'll look into adding 88 and 22 sidestep but i don't think we can add a toggle so there might be situations where that interferes with another input that somebody wants to do and i'm gonna have to favor the 8 h+p+k one on this since everybody is used to it now.

including me, i was a 88 22 player myself in 5