MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Because she is a ninja/poster child/main character/mary sue. What were you expecting?
Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes
- Thread starter Berzerk!
- Start date
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
^ This 1k times....I hate when I get 5k instead of SS K with Zack...the buffering system is so fucked in this game.
ScattereDreams
Well-Known Member
Holds: Expert, and advanced holds should not be doable while in critical stun state. They're strong holds and it's bs that a player gets insane amount of damage off those holds while in STUN state. Players should be rewarded with that type of damage from being stunned. Lei Fang can get 100-120pts of damage off 46H from guessing correctly while stunned. BULLSHIT
Frame advantage
It's because of the lack of frame advantage that untechables/and pseudo force techs are exploited and some players make Helena's force techs the #1 priority play style when playing her. I blame TN for that. It hurts my head every time I see a see a guard break that leaves the attacker at frame disadvantage. Every character needs some form of frame advantage on block not just guard crushes/breaks. TN did this with Ayanes 66k4 which was a NC until they decided to make the second kick duckable in 1.03. It forced Ayane players to commit to the full 66kkk string or risk being whiff punished, and Lisa as well as many others can punish Ayanes 66kk4 hard if they duck the second kick. If they're going to nerf force tech's then they need to make sure players can have another way to receive frame advantage other than guard breaks/crushes, parries, and attacks that stun. Mila's 1p hit and Lisa's neutral jab on block are good examples.
Guaranteed damage.
In terms of guaranteed damage, the game felt pretty unbalanced. Not everyone could utilize guaranteed damage as well as others. Some were forced to play the DOA4 stun game (Zack, Hitomi, Helena. Although Zack can leave you guessing for hours). This is something I think TN needs to adjust in DOA5U, they don't have to nerf the ones that're good, but instead make weaker characters viable
My main character in DOA5 which is Eliot is pretty much lacking in every category except combo's, and frame traps until you realize how lenient he is so you really don't have to deal with his frame traps. Eliot has 3 sit down stuns in which launchers are only guaranteed if the opponent doesn't SE. From both 4H/6H 7P is only guaranteed if your opponent doesn't crouch while back turned. From Eliot's parries 9k is guaranteed but because 9kk is not a natural combo the second kick can be held. Because Eliot also lacks in speed and mixup's he can't play the DOA4 mix up game as well as Zack or Helena. So Eliot is all about baiting, hoping for some form of a counterhit from he lengthy strings so he can bait you into a hold for a 236P+G throw to steal 30-40% of your health.
I would like for TN to give Eliot new 4H and 6H hold animations, and make his current 4H/6H expert holds in which he gains more frame advantage (something similar to Lei Fangs 46H). Eliot's parry leaves him at +15/+16 in which 33p SHOULD be guaranteed but it's not because of DOA's silly false start up on attacks in which TN should either make 9kk a natural combo, give 7p more range, or make 8p faster. Eliot should also receive more frame advantage on his sit down stuns 3kp, p+k, and 66k or TN should reduce the recovery on those attacks.
Sidesteps
Shit is stupid. Some characters have really good site steps, some have really bad sidesteps, and some characters can't deal with sidestepping at ALL. Eliot, Kokoro, and Lisa's F+K were designed with the intend of tracking players who sidestep and alot of characters only have tracking moves that're high or lows tracking moves that're really slow in terms of start up. However, alot of characters have moves from sidestepping that crushes highs (Hitomi, Mila, Kokoro, Helena, Kasumi, Eliot, ) and that defeats the purpose of tracking moves if the majority of them are highs.
Frame advantage
It's because of the lack of frame advantage that untechables/and pseudo force techs are exploited and some players make Helena's force techs the #1 priority play style when playing her. I blame TN for that. It hurts my head every time I see a see a guard break that leaves the attacker at frame disadvantage. Every character needs some form of frame advantage on block not just guard crushes/breaks. TN did this with Ayanes 66k4 which was a NC until they decided to make the second kick duckable in 1.03. It forced Ayane players to commit to the full 66kkk string or risk being whiff punished, and Lisa as well as many others can punish Ayanes 66kk4 hard if they duck the second kick. If they're going to nerf force tech's then they need to make sure players can have another way to receive frame advantage other than guard breaks/crushes, parries, and attacks that stun. Mila's 1p hit and Lisa's neutral jab on block are good examples.
Guaranteed damage.
In terms of guaranteed damage, the game felt pretty unbalanced. Not everyone could utilize guaranteed damage as well as others. Some were forced to play the DOA4 stun game (Zack, Hitomi, Helena. Although Zack can leave you guessing for hours). This is something I think TN needs to adjust in DOA5U, they don't have to nerf the ones that're good, but instead make weaker characters viable
My main character in DOA5 which is Eliot is pretty much lacking in every category except combo's, and frame traps until you realize how lenient he is so you really don't have to deal with his frame traps. Eliot has 3 sit down stuns in which launchers are only guaranteed if the opponent doesn't SE. From both 4H/6H 7P is only guaranteed if your opponent doesn't crouch while back turned. From Eliot's parries 9k is guaranteed but because 9kk is not a natural combo the second kick can be held. Because Eliot also lacks in speed and mixup's he can't play the DOA4 mix up game as well as Zack or Helena. So Eliot is all about baiting, hoping for some form of a counterhit from he lengthy strings so he can bait you into a hold for a 236P+G throw to steal 30-40% of your health.
I would like for TN to give Eliot new 4H and 6H hold animations, and make his current 4H/6H expert holds in which he gains more frame advantage (something similar to Lei Fangs 46H). Eliot's parry leaves him at +15/+16 in which 33p SHOULD be guaranteed but it's not because of DOA's silly false start up on attacks in which TN should either make 9kk a natural combo, give 7p more range, or make 8p faster. Eliot should also receive more frame advantage on his sit down stuns 3kp, p+k, and 66k or TN should reduce the recovery on those attacks.
Sidesteps
Shit is stupid. Some characters have really good site steps, some have really bad sidesteps, and some characters can't deal with sidestepping at ALL. Eliot, Kokoro, and Lisa's F+K were designed with the intend of tracking players who sidestep and alot of characters only have tracking moves that're high or lows tracking moves that're really slow in terms of start up. However, alot of characters have moves from sidestepping that crushes highs (Hitomi, Mila, Kokoro, Helena, Kasumi, Eliot, ) and that defeats the purpose of tracking moves if the majority of them are highs.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
FIRST POST UPDATED
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/competitive-balance-doa5u-mechanics-changes.2972/#post-103779
I have integrated a number of points and summarised player comments, and included a couple of direct quoted comments from the thread.
Please continue the discussion, remain focused on the specific system issues and mechanics.
Do take the time to alert Team Ninja via twitter by tweeting this thread and mentioning specific things you want them to look at.
It seems life setting, hold damage, and guaranteed damage are still the key items.
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/competitive-balance-doa5u-mechanics-changes.2972/#post-103779
I have integrated a number of points and summarised player comments, and included a couple of direct quoted comments from the thread.
Please continue the discussion, remain focused on the specific system issues and mechanics.
Do take the time to alert Team Ninja via twitter by tweeting this thread and mentioning specific things you want them to look at.
It seems life setting, hold damage, and guaranteed damage are still the key items.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Agree with pretty much your whole post, though its not achievable to ask them to remove advanced holds from stun. They are harder to do, require better reads, and we are already address holds by asking for lower damage and higher recovery.
Holds being higher risk, lower reward is the tweak gaining popular acceptance.
Hey berzerk, can we add forcetechs to the first post?
I understand it falls under frame advantage..
But i believe theres more to it and may deserve its own highlight, particularly because of how it eliminates the opponents wakeup game and forces them back on their feet.
I understand it falls under frame advantage..
But i believe theres more to it and may deserve its own highlight, particularly because of how it eliminates the opponents wakeup game and forces them back on their feet.
Saber
Well-Known Member
I agree, force techs deserve their own category. Probably the only out of DOA4 which I think is useful to the game competitively. since it does encourage aggressive playstyles.
If I had to comment on Ein getting an Offensive Hold...the main question would be if he actually needs it. Ein is primarily a striker who just hits really hard. His throws are average and this does suggest that OHs are universal. (Don't quote me on this, I never played DOA4).
Saber
Well-Known Member
Yeah. He's nowhere near hybrid status like Mila, Hayabusa and Leifang, so why would he get one in the first place? The tools he has currently are sufficient for the time being.
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
My question is how do we know more character haven't received OH's since Kasumi's been shown to have one as well.
Kronin
Well-Known Member
Tweeted Team Ninja about your first post, please RT for major relevance: https://twitter.com/Kronin1/status/349833818515058688
Saber
Well-Known Member
Any source regarding this? Ein's is confirmed, but I haven't seen Kasumi's yet.
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
Sorry Saber just going off of what other ppl in this thread said no proof.
But going back to the point Ein is the 1st character who isn't a grapple or a "special case" (i.e. actually needs it) character and he's getting an OH. That could be a very good indication that more characters have one now.
The most frustrating thing about the E3 videos was that it gave us absolutely NOTHING to go off of. If only they could have showcased the changes each character now has that would have been great.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
So far I haven't seen an indication they are removing them but they may be adjusting system - agree we should put something in to clarify the desire to have a pressure tool on wake up and that it should be done without recursive vortex and other inconsistency (maybe the new animation is about clear ground attacks)
Also the #doa5u hash tag is full of junk about costumes and hairstyles - lets replicate that with items from this list
Here's a general one to get started and please rt but pick your key issue that has clear player backing from the list and tweet them
https://twitter.com/BerzerkDC/status/349883953823494144
I'm going to raise the issues we have about the changes with the Japanese players on stream tomorrow .. and see if I can get them to back us up.
I'll update you all with what happens
I'll update you all with what happens
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Zack can keep you guessing...but man my sitdown stuns are ass tier. Btw...the stagger made Zack a monster but you know what TN did to that Julius. Anyways Zack can keep you guessing, but a lot of his best shit is mid, so it' not as strong as one would thing.
Another thing I wanted to bring about this is that I feel CB need to become faster to get to. This four hit bs is dumb and is just telling my opponent to hold me.