Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

[OSTCarmine]

But the difference is, with what master is talkin about... ok i'll get the stun, now i can pick whatever and do stupid damage. It doesn't matter what I do because I tell you right now I'll be getting 40-45% with absolutely no strategic element attached to it other than sheer luck. Everything will do big damage, so why use my brain for anything? There are no logical mindgames attached to it, and that is a very bad thing.


The other interesting situation is what happens if you leave the sitdown shakeable? I can shortbus the stun right there and take my damage guaranteed instead of going for the CB before it gets blocked. Or I can attempt a riskier, even higher payout maneuver by aggravating my opponent with an OH as he leaves the stun (but before he can counter), which eventually conditions him to throw me as he leaves the stun... at which point i go back to my CB, which turns the remainder of the combo into high-counter damage and more than likely would end the round or damn near end it. A high risk, high payoff gambit that I totally approve of.

Either way, you can see how the CB has different applications than a launcher would.

you dont need to convince me that master is wrong on this one lol.
The sitdown stun being shakeable is really not a big deal for me, cuz it means that combos cant truly devolve into Stun-Sitdown-CB-Juggle, since as you have said this could potentially end the game right there and the defender would only have one or two chances to do anything. that does not seem like SUCH a high risk for the attacker, granted the attacker obviously deserves better odds in this situation. i doubt DOA could ever go that far into crapsville, but i remember the Naruto fiasco where low-hp transformations could fuck up a perfectly won game in zero seconds flat

 

[Chris Harris]

If you can SE sit down stuns it will be dependent on that attack what you can or can't get. At the very least you get pressure which is sort of like a forced reset since they struggled.

Understand even IF you can struggle then hold you can't struggle and hold efficiently. So by struggling you are 90% going to be thrown unless you are hitting buttons. Most of the time if someone struggles out of something you will mix them up with mid/throw like in any game that have a struggle system.

If you hit someone with something they can struggle out of 90% of the time they will and you get a free mix up. Holding after struggling will be equivalent of someone doing a reversal in VF after struggling out of a stagger or struggling out of a stun in SC. . .they will probably block or fuzzy guard.

 

[OSTCarmine]

So like Rikuto also said, an OH is the most obvious choice in such a situation.
I wonder how TN went about changing strike properties... specifically those regarding CH on counter. Whenever i played Lee i would toss in random 6PP or 6K on the off chance of getting a counter CH. I do the same with Busa's 66P to get sitdowns. Can anybody confirm if Busa still gets this? it would give me hope for Lee

Also, im not 100% clear on this so can anybody tell me exactly when/how a limbo stun takes place. im trying to wrap my head around the stun game, as well as any other interesting strike properties. i know there are multiple sources to get some of this info, but if i ask directly i also get info on obscure things that may not be covered in those other sources... feel free to redirect me if you dont feel like answering my questions though

 

[Matt Ponton]

Jann Lee's F+K is an example of a limbo stun. The stun was removed in DOA4, but has returned in DOA5.

However, due to the slow escape turnaround animation when backturned, you no longer can fall down faster but instead will do a back-turned turnaround once you reach "back facing state".

 

[OSTCarmine]

ok lol, the stun where you're bent over backwards then. got it. i was confusing it for something else.
Can you tell me anything about the changes made to stuns on CH? specifically the Hayabusa 66P. Does it still get sitdown on CH? does it get any stun at all?

also rikuto, you and some other peeps did a few youtube vids a while back right. did you do any that explain a few of the more technical aspects of the game, explore flaws etc that you could refer me to? much obliged i would be, yes

 

[RikWeaN]

OH's are not true grabs...

But they are. How do you call an unblockable attack (that could be avoided by crouching or jumping) that gets priority on any other slower move ?
Well, that's what a grab is.

They are throws with a hold property

You just described a grab. Thanks for proving my point.
DOA4 had grabs for ALL characters, which was a definite step forward. The difference is grapplers had more, specific ones.

 

[Allan Paris]

But they are. How do you call an unblockable attack (that could be avoided by crouching or jumping) that gets priority on any other slower move ?
Well, that's what a grab is.

Where did you get this definition about a grab from? This certainly is not coming from DOA.

You just described a grab. Thanks for proving my point.
DOA4 had grabs for ALL characters, which was a definite step forward. The difference is grapplers had more, specific ones.

No, he described an Offensive Hold in Dead or Alive. You must don't know the difference between the two. That was a step backwards giving all of them an OH in DOA4. That was the only game where everyone had an OH. You see how that game is looked at competitively. All of the characters having an OH helped destroy it as well. DOA has had and still has grabs for all of the characters, what are you talking about?

Go play DOA2U or 3. Both better games competitively compared to DOA4. Not all of the characters had an OH in either game. So how is it a step backwards again?

Throw: A type of attack effective against guarding or evading opponents, but not against opponents beginning a striking attack. If the initial grabbing motion hits your opponent, the throw will begin.

Offensive Hold: Also known as the catch throw/catch grab. A Offensive Hold acts as a Throw with Offensive holds properties meaning it beats out attacks, and defensive holds, but its beaten by all Throws. AKA the catch throw/catch grab.

Learn your game better so you can know exactly what you're talking about; http://freestepdodge.com/wiki/dead-or-alive-terminology/

 

[DriftSlave]

But they are. How do you call an unblockable attack (that could be avoided by crouching or jumping) that gets priority on any other slower move ?
Well, that's what a grab is.

You just described a grab. Thanks for proving my point.
DOA4 had grabs for ALL characters, which was a definite step forward. The difference is grapplers had more, specific ones.

you don't get it....they don't work like traditional throws in FG's....because it sounds the same, does not mean it's the same....
a OH is a kind of HOLD that will still count(to my knowledge) as a HOLD and it will still lose to THROWS. The reason you think a OH is a throw is because you still get thrown if you just sit there, hence why it's an Offensive Hold. OH is something that was born out of the Triangle system and is not really present in any other fighter to my knowledge.

Grap3 has most of this covered in the glossary

Edit: I was ninja'ed by Allan again

 

[Matt Ponton]

DOA1 had OHs on every character.

 

[Allan Paris]

Ok, I stand corrected. 2 DOA games had them for all of the characters.

Still doesn't help RikWeaN in his arguments.

 

[RikWeaN]

Where did you get this definition about a grab from? This certainly is not coming from DOA.

That's the definition of a grab in any competitive FG, and that's what DOA4's OHs were.

No, he descried an Offensive Hold in Dead or Alive. You must don't know the difference between the two.

I know the difference very well ... how were DOA4's OHs any different than grabs in any FG ?
The difference may be that you could get thrown during an OH in DOA. Then again, since there are no throws in other FGs, that's obviously never going to happen.

That was a step backwards giving all of them an OH in DOA4. That was the only game where everyone had an OH. You see how that game is looked at competitively.

I think we might not understand each other on what an OH is ... I consider DOA4's regular OHs (the 16-17 frames ones) to be the equivalent to other fighters' grabs. So what you're saying is DOA4 was the only fighting game to have grabs for all characters ? I beg to differ. VF, Soulcalibur and even Tekken have grabs for all characters, and these are considered competitive.
DOA4 specific OHs (Tina's Giant Swing for instance) are closer to other fighters' catch grabs (better range, can evade some moves, etc).

All of the characters having an OH helped destroy it as well. DOA has had and still has grabs for all of the characters, what are you talking about?

Yes, DOA (except 4) always had THROWS for all characters, not grabs. Which is definitely specific to DOA. The only thing DOA4 did different (by giving grabs to everyone).

That's an interesting point though... You seem to think DOA4 giving OHs to all characters helped destroying it. How so?

 

[Chris Harris]

This is probably the first time I have watched someone say something and be 100% wrong but truly believe they are right lol. . . .too good

 

[Matt Ponton]

That's the definition of a grab in any competitive FG, and that's what DOA4's OHs were.

Except for Virtua Fighter, where attacks will beat P+G throws, a game that DOA derived from. Their Offensive Hold is called "Catch Grab".

 

[RikWeaN]

This is probably the first time I have watched someone say something and be 100% wrong but truly believe they are right lol. . . .too good

Please, do say. What do you believe is wrong in what I said ? Specifically.

 

[Chris Harris]

OH's are more of an attacking throw than a regular throw. They aren't used to open people up like in other games or used for mid/throw mix ups. OH's are there to beat slow attacks and actually net more damage when they are used in this situation. They do minimal damage if not catching an attack and they lose to regular throws. In no other game does a throw just lose to another throw (except SF in certain situations but that is character specific and versus command throws which all characters don't have).

In no other game is there a throw (that all characters have mind you) that beat attacks but lose to another type of throw (which all characters also have).

 

[Allan Paris]

That's the definition of a grab in any competitive FG, and that's what DOA4's OHs were.

I know the difference very well ... how were DOA4's OHs any different than grabs in any FG ?
The difference may be that you could get thrown during an OH in DOA. Then again, since there are no throws in other FGs, that's obviously never going to happen.

Well for one, a throw break would happen in another FG. You get thrown while doing an OH, you don't get a throw break (assuming someone didn't do neutral throw) and you eat a massive amount of damage for doing it. That's a pretty big difference compared to throws in any other FG. So, no, you do not know the difference "very well".

I think we might not understand each other on what an OH is ... I consider DOA4's regular OHs (the 16-17 frames ones) to be the equivalent to other fighters' grabs. So what you're saying is DOA4 was the only fighting game to have grabs for all characters ? I beg to differ. VF, Soulcalibur and even Tekken have grabs for all characters, and these are considered competitive.
DOA4 specific OHs (Tina's Giant Swing for instance) are closer to other fighters' catch grabs (better range, can evade some moves, etc).

Oh no, I understand just fine what an OH is. There, right there, I have found the problem. You are basing what an OH is based off of what "I (you) consider DOA4's regular OHs (the 16-17 frames ones) to be the equivalent to other fighters' grabs." Things don't work from what you consider, especially when there is a system or a set of rules set in order way before you. I gave you the pure definitions of both. If you choose to ignore them, then that's on you.

I never said that DOA4 was the only game to have grabs for all of the characters and I don't see how or where you read that I even implied that.

Yes, DOA (except 4) always had THROWS for all characters, not grabs. Which is definitely specific to DOA. The only thing DOA4 did different (by giving grabs to everyone).

You do know that a grab and a throw is the same thing in fighting games? It's a preference on what you would like to call them, but they are the exact same thing. If they are not, I sure as hell missed that memo.

You can't be serious right now.

 

[grap3fruitman]

So what you're saying is DOA4 was the only fighting game to have grabs for all characters ? I beg to differ. VF, Soulcalibur and even Tekken have grabs for all characters, and these are considered competitive.

Throws in DOA work just like throws in all the games you listed and are beaten by attacks... Contradicting yourself like this helps your argument how exactly?

Grap3 has most of this covered in the glossary

For the record, I've contributed nothing to the glossary. I'm pretty sure it's all Mr. Wah's doing.

This is probably the first time I have watched someone say something and be 100% wrong but truly believe they are right lol. . . .too good

There's this guy named "Master" or something that posts here from time to time.

 

[RikWeaN]

Now that's an interesting discussion, thanks for the input guys

Just something I'd like to check we all agree with.
As long as you got enough frame advantage,
DOA's throw vs Hit = Hit wins.
DOA's OH vs Hit = OH wins.
Any 3D FG's grab vs Hit = Grab wins.

... starting to see a pattern here ? Which DOA mecanic is closer to a regular grab in others FG ? The OH. I'm just stating a fact here.
Only in DOA a throw would get beaten by a hit (at least what DOA calls a "throw", which is different than what any other FG calls a "grab").

OH's are more of an attacking throw than a regular throw. They aren't used to open people up like in other games or used for mid/throw mix ups.

As far I'm concerned, sure the setups might vary, but the mid/OH mix up does exist.
A few examples :
Any sitdown stun (most CH 3k) : As this stun can be slow escaped, it will be slow escaped most of the time. There comes your mix up : mid or OH.
Any real sweep (the ones that stun) : (Ein or Hayate's NH 2k+f), after this kind of move, your frame advantage will go from +9 to +14. Regardless of your opponent slowescaping or not, you got a perfect mid/OH mixup setup.
Any 6k knee (NH or CH) : Depending on NH or CH, your frame advantage will vary from +9 to +15. Regardless of your opponent slowescaping or not, you got a perfect mid/OH mixup setup.
And if that's not enough to prove there ARE mid/OH mixups in DOA4, I still got more from where that came from. Did you actually play the game ?

OH's are there to beat slow attacks and actually net more damage when they are used in this situation. They do minimal damage if not catching an attack and they lose to regular throws.

I totally agree, that's another use to OHs. Great anti zoning strategy. It's a good tool to beat the recursion of some zoning moves with high priority. Damage scaling is secondary (You just wanna get up close).

In no other game does a throw just lose to another throw (except SF in certain situations but that is character specific and versus command throws which all characters don't have).
In no other game is there a throw (that all characters have mind you) that beat attacks but lose to another type of throw (which all characters also have).

So you're basically saying the mecanic of DOA's "throws" doesn't exist anywhere else. Well, that's what I've been saying all along. In DOA, OHs lose to throws... in any other FG, grabs won't lose to throws, as throws don't exist there (what DOA calls "throws").

Well for one, a throw break would happen in another FG. You get thrown while doing an OH, you don't get a throw break (assuming someone didn't do neutral throw) and you eat a massive amount of damage for doing it. That's a pretty big difference compared to throws in any other FG. So, no, you do not know the difference "very well".

I'm well aware of that, and I agree. There's no throw break in DOA except for neutral throws, that's how DOA is, and I do believe that a weak part of the games. I never said otherwise :-/
Doesn't change the fact DOA's OHs are closer to any other FG grabs than DOA throws, in the sense that you CAN have mid/OH mixups, but no mid/throw mixups.

Oh no, I understand just fine what an OH is. There, right there, I have found the problem. You are basing what an OH is based off of what "I (you) consider DOA4's regular OHs (the 16-17 frames ones) to be the equivalent to other fighters' grabs."

They are still closer to other fighters' grab than DOA throws. Any strategy involving grabs in a FG can be used with OHs in DOA. DOA's throws CANNOT be used as grabs.

Things don't work from what you consider, especially when there is a system or a set of rules set in order way before you. I gave you the pure definitions of both. If you choose to ignore them, then that's on you.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm well aware of them. That doesn't change any strategy or analogy I stated above... Really, I'm well aware of the rules of DOA.

I never said that DOA4 was the only game to have grabs for all of the characters and I don't see how or where you read that I even implied that.

Well then sorry, I must be mistaken.

You do know that a grab and a throw is the same thing in fighting games? It's a preference on what you would like to call them, but they are the exact same thing. If they are not, I sure as hell missed that memo.

A throw in DOA definitely doesn't have the same properties as a regular fighter's grab : DOA throws get beaten by strikes ! You can't find something like that anywhere else. This is specific to DOA.

Throws in DOA work just like throws in all the games you listed and are beaten by attacks...

Regular FG's throws get beaten by attacks ? I don't think they do... that's only in DOA.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Okay, let's define these things right here:

Throw - A move that beats a neutral, crouching or blocking opponent. Can be beaten in the initial start-up with an attack.
Catch Throw - A throw that can catch an opponent during the initial frames of an attack but will lose to an attack's active frames.

Offensive Hold - A move similar to a "catch throw" but differing in that it can catch during both initial and active frames. Can be beaten with a throw.
Defensive Hold - A move that will catch an opponents attack during active frames. Can be beaten with a throw.

See the difference?

Regular FG's throws get beaten by attacks ? I don't think they do... that's only in DOA.

No it's not. Throws work differently in 2D and 3D fighters but all of your examples were 3D fighters, in which throws work fairly similarly.

 

[Allan Paris]

Now that's an interesting discussion, thanks for the input guys

Just something I'd like to check we all agree with.
As long as you got enough frame advantage,
DOA's throw vs Hit = Hit wins.
DOA's OH vs Hit = OH wins.
Any 3D FG's grab vs Hit = Grab wins.

No, yes, and no. You do not need frame advantage to beat out a throw in DOA with an attack. Attacks beat them out, period. Yes, OH wins against attacks, though it is possible to beat an OH with an attack in its start up frames. You have to be close and quick to do it. In VF if you try to throw me and I attack, you will lose 10 times out of 10, unless it's a catch throw that is being performed.

I have only heard that throws beat attacks in 2D fighters, specifically with SF. I also use to play the game and that's pretty much true.

... starting to see a pattern here ? Which DOA mecanic is closer to a regular grab in others FG ? The OH. I'm just stating a fact here.
Only in DOA a throw would get beaten by a hit (at least what DOA calls a "throw", which is different than what any other FG calls a "grab").

Why do you think a grab and a throw are different in fighting games? They are not, it's literally a preference on which word you'd like to use to describe the same exact action they cause. Why are you separating the words as if they are different?

Technically speaking, you do a grab and the animation is your opponent being thrown, in most cases. But you are not even saying or even implying that much. For the most part when the word grab or throw is used in FGs, it's the same thing. You're just flatout separating the two.

Doesn't change the fact DOA's OHs are closer to any other FG grabs than DOA throws, in the sense that you CAN have mid/OH mixups, but no mid/throw mixups.

Apparently you are comparing the OH in DOA to how throws work in a 2D game. Why?

They are still closer to other fighters' grab than DOA throws. Any strategy involving grabs in a FG can be used with OHs in DOA. DOA's throws CANNOT be used as grabs.

No, the strategy cannot be used the same. In SF throws are i3 faster than l.jabs i4, OH in DOA are i18 one the slowest moves in everyone's arsenal. That is a very big difference in numbers, as you can see. Something as slow as i18 cannot be applied in no way as to something that damn fast. The games you have play using an OH is different, and cannot be relied on heavily when playing someone who knows how to deal with them. SF you can tech and get away, DOA you get thrown and get hurt badly for it.

I am only speaking on SF because I believe that you are talking about how throws are in a 2D fighter. It is not the same in DOA.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm well aware of them. That doesn't change any strategy or analogy I stated above... Really, I'm well aware of the rules of DOA.

I cannot tell that you are aware. But ok.

A throw in DOA definitely doesn't have the same properties as a regular fighter's grab : DOA throws get beaten by strikes ! You can't find something like that anywhere else. This is specific to DOA.

It is like that in VF. That was just told to you several posts ago.

Regular FG's throws get beaten by attacks ? I don't think they do... that's only in DOA.

So you don't "think" they do and, that gives you the ground to say that they only work like that in DOA? That doesn't even make nonsense. There is no intelligent logic to that at all. You don't "think" they do, so they don't. lmao.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Sigh. I already said that vf has their throws lose outright to attacks. Guess which 3d fighter is built off of vf.