Dead or Alive 5: Remaining Issues
- Thread starter AKNova7
- Start date
I missed you. There was some imposter posting under your alias recently.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Which makes no difference at all in the grand scheme of things. Although that is why I call them instant now instead of i0.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Honestly? I just think people in general need to suffer for relying on such a system. If you fucked up you should pay for it. Getting stunned shouldn't be a small deal. If you think you deserve a way out, you should at the very least have to do something really intricate to escape the stun such as knowing the very specific move property of what it is you're attempting to read and counter.
Escaping by guessing wildly just seems like a solution for people who don't want to actually learn anything about the game they are playing. There are actually a lot of people out there who have trouble learning the 4 point system and frankly I have no real sympathy for these people. The only reason they are bewildered is because they picked up the controller without trying to learn anything. People like that who put in the bare minimum amount of effort deserve to lose, every single time.
Make counters harder and when they DO happen, its actually fairly impressive and cool to see.
A little bit of suffering is a good thing for people, really. Dark Souls certainly proved that.
Of course this is all a moot point really, the game is basically done. Nothing I say is going to happen, but the game is still better than DOA 4 and there's probably a lot of cool setups we don't know about yet that can make it fairly viable competitively.
BlackOrochi
Member
I used to be completely pro 3-pt Holds with lesser damage and slower recovery time. But eventually, it's all about compromise. I noticed there were many seasoned players (at least in this forum) who want more guaranteed combos, so we have to respect their ideas too. Some players found comfort in 4-pt Holds, but I find that fix kinda a cheap and illogic given the distinction between punches and kicks for only Mid attacks. 6-pt Holds may sound too complex at first, but at least it treats all levels of attacks (High-Mid-Low) equally and increases chances of guaranteed combos. Honestly, since 3-pt is no longer an option, I'd rather have a 6-pt system rather than a ridiculously watered down 4-pt system. The only problem with 6-pt is that it would require a longer learning curve for new comers. Apart from that, I do not see why DOA5 (or 6) shouldn't give 6pt Holds a decent shot.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
In development I think they did give it a shot.
Honestly it was probably fear that kept them from fully implementing it. NG3 tanked because they pissed off the core audience and they probably didn't want to risk doing the same with DOA 5 (which is made up of a lot of casuals).
It's an understandable dilemma for them and there is no reason for them to believe our word that it would work out in the end. Not when there is as much in-fighting in the community, it sends too many mixed signals.
BlackOrochi
Member
True. It must be like talking to a person with split-personalities...
I can't imagine how complex it is for TN to make an confident executive decision... Especially when the in-fighting occurs not only between pros and casuals, but also between pros themselves...
Dutch Samurai
Active Member
That's my main question for why 4 point holds exist. I understand that mid strikes are the bread and butter of this game and fighting games in general, but I still question the validity of having separate inputs for counters for mid punches versus counters for mid kicks. I have to side with grap3 that I would actually favor a 6 point system over a 4 point system, simply because I don't think mid strikes should be treated differently from high or low ones.
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
6 point holds would be too much for their casual fans. TN could just make holds have a longer recovery and the casuals would never notice the difference.
The only people that would notice that difference are the high level players and the in between people who probably weren't going to travel offline much. The game would still be fun and you could still mash holds but there would be a significant drawback for whiffing them.
As of now there is a little difference in whiffing them though I still think there are some set ups that aren't being explored with whiffing low holds that I have theory fightered in my mind lol.
AKNova7
Active Member
Nah, most, 4 point out of stun. But, personally, I'd like the ENTIRE stun system to be rehauled, not the hold system. The stun system is the problem, why would holds have to suffer themselves? Why do we have to keep holds in stuns ANYWAY? Why are we just improving the guessing instead of eliminating it altogether, at least in an attempt of what we WANT to do? 6 point holds are just unnecessary, guys. The hold system is in the middle between 3 point and 6 point.
Oh for the love of god. Where's a laughing smilie when you need one?
He's kidding, mostly.
Look, I've seen so many things about how things "make more sense" in a way that hampers gameplay. The reason 4 point holds have mids treated differently are because mids are so essential to a move list. 6 point holds are just not compromising at all. It's not about what's logical through common sense, it's all about what's best for gameplay and business, period. That's the only two things that matter to any Development Core that has any sense. A great game for fan satisfaction like PR, and good business practice.
Not only are 6 point holds BAD for gameplay, they're also BAD for business. They're bad in both ways, and there's no reason whatsoever to use them. Every attack in DOA isn't equal. The evasion system doesn't treat attacks equally (why can I duck a high instantly and jump a low almost instantly, but when I sidestep, I have to wait for the move duration until I can punish a linear mid attack? Why can some mid attacks not be avoided in this manner at all?) for instance. So why should counters do it either? It's not about neat looking solutions, it's about effective solutions.
6 point holds just LOOK good, how they perform, is dumb. Especially with the game balance the way it is. Why are we trying to create a DOA4 skewed game except where offense is now the dominant one?
And I'm sorry if it seems like I'm yelling at you, but this is going way, way too far. Even if I owned a business I wouldn't go that far. 4 points are fine.
But walking the line isn't hard, that's the part that bothers me. It's like they need to ask the fans, but they don't actually ask. Which is why I'm trying to do this list. I feel Team Ninja needs help, and I want to give it to them, but I can't do it without any feedback from any of you guys, because I'd be the exact same as Manny!
Then please, please address the problems you actually have, instead of trying to 1 up the scrub, lol. Look, as I've said multiple times, Virtua Fighter did it well, evolve it into a mechanic. i0 Holds, 4 point because DOA is all mids, 12 frame duration, 21 frames recovery. Disallow holding in stun. Add some NH properties on moves to allow non-throw punishment of these moves. Make Low Hold NOT tech duck, add pokes, and blow up the stun system, string delay, and free canceling for REAL combos so people don't do brainless dumb shit on offense and have to learn the game.
Seriously. That's all you need to do. Maybe add a little frame advantage, but it'd depend on the character. Guessing in the neutral game isn't a problem, because you have to do that. In fact, you really don't have to guess much because the game has backdash cancels. Done. What's wrong with this vision? It's how DOA is supposed to be, Holds are for BEFORE you hit confirm, not after. that's how it's supposed to be, and the game would be really cool with 4 holds, SOME frame advantage, and no holding in stun, as long as the movement is fluid and the controls feel good.
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
@AK Nova
You can't just remove holding out of stun and then band-aid some normal hit moves and BAM it's awesome.
Once holding is taken out of stun now only a few moves can stun or cause critical. Otherwise you have what you all seem to hate "one touch kill". They have to change the gravity of everything. Have to make certain moves give juggles while others don't.
This is what happens when you take holding out of stun and do what you are proposing.
A Tekkenish game except now when I touch you with w/e move that does cause a stun I just increase to end of threshold and launch you. I don't even have to launch you right away I can push you to the wall first because I know you can't hold. I then knock you into the wall and probably kill you or at least take a ton of your life.
You also are trying to turn it into a VFish type neutral game. However the reason it works with VF so well is because instead of the stun system they have evade. However strings are in that game and while they don't work as strong as in DoA they on the average level are just as strong as in DoA. At the end of DoA4's life span the strings and string delay wasn't what was super strong. It was the holding that was super strong and won games. You up or down on life, throw bare counters or go for throws because it was the strongest damage.
Only a few characters could fully utilize their strings, safe or unsafe. Tina was just as super safe as before but it didn't matter because the hold was so strong. The best characters were either really good at mid/mid > throw or slight disadvantage > crush because crushes were super strong.
String delay only got you SO far in DoA in general. Every player that was winning at ANY version of DoA had good footsies or was good at playing the mid/mid > throw game.
The real problem lied with counters doing 45% for no particular reason other than he just happened to throw it out. Counters were also used to completely negate mix up when you did stun someone. Hitomi would be at disadvantage after certain stuns because the hold recovered faster than the move she did. This is why I would like to see the hold be in the -20 range because that way there is NO WAY possible that you can instant hold and be okay.
Back to what I was saying though. . . .once holds are gone from stun then they have to completely kill the system. Stop asking for it because I'm fairly certain that is one thing they aren't compromising. The stun system isn't the biggest issue it's the hold which makes/breaks the game.
Drop the hold to -20 or more
Tone down delay on strings some
Moves that do happen to give advantage need to give significant advantage so an offense can be built
Damage from holds needs to be minor across the board (ala VF)
Make low holds not crouch tech (though making the hold recover in 25 also helps that problem)
Seeing as you can struggle a big portion of the moves in general now holding should be a last resort. If throws keep the big damage you can get then holding is scary assuming you get 10-15% but if you guess wrong on ANY level (launcher as well) you lose 40-50% it makes people say to themselves " It's probably best if I'm not just throwing out guesses for no reason"
The reason people hit buttons so much is because the hold could easily turn the match around. So getting hit wasn't a problem because you at the LEAST got 1 chance to hold the next attack for 30-45% damage and even IF they hit you with a launcher on the first hit they got 20-35% damage because the launcher was so low.
People liked DoA3 because if you guessed wrong on the hold you either got thrown for stupid damage, launched for stupid damage, or knocked back towards the wall. All three of those options out weighed getting countered so assuming you countered 6 times in a row all it took was 1 wrong guess to just lose you the round.
You can't just remove holding out of stun and then band-aid some normal hit moves and BAM it's awesome.
Once holding is taken out of stun now only a few moves can stun or cause critical. Otherwise you have what you all seem to hate "one touch kill". They have to change the gravity of everything. Have to make certain moves give juggles while others don't.
This is what happens when you take holding out of stun and do what you are proposing.
A Tekkenish game except now when I touch you with w/e move that does cause a stun I just increase to end of threshold and launch you. I don't even have to launch you right away I can push you to the wall first because I know you can't hold. I then knock you into the wall and probably kill you or at least take a ton of your life.
You also are trying to turn it into a VFish type neutral game. However the reason it works with VF so well is because instead of the stun system they have evade. However strings are in that game and while they don't work as strong as in DoA they on the average level are just as strong as in DoA. At the end of DoA4's life span the strings and string delay wasn't what was super strong. It was the holding that was super strong and won games. You up or down on life, throw bare counters or go for throws because it was the strongest damage.
Only a few characters could fully utilize their strings, safe or unsafe. Tina was just as super safe as before but it didn't matter because the hold was so strong. The best characters were either really good at mid/mid > throw or slight disadvantage > crush because crushes were super strong.
String delay only got you SO far in DoA in general. Every player that was winning at ANY version of DoA had good footsies or was good at playing the mid/mid > throw game.
The real problem lied with counters doing 45% for no particular reason other than he just happened to throw it out. Counters were also used to completely negate mix up when you did stun someone. Hitomi would be at disadvantage after certain stuns because the hold recovered faster than the move she did. This is why I would like to see the hold be in the -20 range because that way there is NO WAY possible that you can instant hold and be okay.
Back to what I was saying though. . . .once holds are gone from stun then they have to completely kill the system. Stop asking for it because I'm fairly certain that is one thing they aren't compromising. The stun system isn't the biggest issue it's the hold which makes/breaks the game.
Drop the hold to -20 or more
Tone down delay on strings some
Moves that do happen to give advantage need to give significant advantage so an offense can be built
Damage from holds needs to be minor across the board (ala VF)
Make low holds not crouch tech (though making the hold recover in 25 also helps that problem)
Seeing as you can struggle a big portion of the moves in general now holding should be a last resort. If throws keep the big damage you can get then holding is scary assuming you get 10-15% but if you guess wrong on ANY level (launcher as well) you lose 40-50% it makes people say to themselves " It's probably best if I'm not just throwing out guesses for no reason"
The reason people hit buttons so much is because the hold could easily turn the match around. So getting hit wasn't a problem because you at the LEAST got 1 chance to hold the next attack for 30-45% damage and even IF they hit you with a launcher on the first hit they got 20-35% damage because the launcher was so low.
People liked DoA3 because if you guessed wrong on the hold you either got thrown for stupid damage, launched for stupid damage, or knocked back towards the wall. All three of those options out weighed getting countered so assuming you countered 6 times in a row all it took was 1 wrong guess to just lose you the round.
AKNova7
Active Member
It'd be good that you posted this in reply, except you missed the part in the threat where I said blow up the stun system. No duh it's not happening at this point, but neither is 6 point holds. We got into talking about what we WANTED, not what's going to happen. That's what this is all about. My realistic list is the list that's actually in the thread.
But you guys really, really want to punish people way too hard for making mistakes, especially in a style of game where it's so easy to make mistakes due to stupid mechanics. 15% damage for holds vs 35% damage for high counter throws is just fine. It IS the stun system that makes the game dumb at this point, holds have been nerfed MORE than enough at this point, besides making them NOT be able to be used in stun anymore. NH launchers help the problem wonderfully. I don't know why you're talking about DOA4, because DOA5 doesn't do that kind of damage on the vast majority of holding. The game is different, and this is the DOA5 forum, what does DOA4 have to do with this?
It just seems like so many people here just want to do away with counter holds in general, almost like they want it to be very risky, have little reward, not be user friendly, and not be used to control the opponent's offense. This is Dead or Alive. I understand many people on here are scared to DEATH of overpowered holds, but jeez, guys. Stop beating them. They need to be removed from stun, and they need to have the recovery window expanded. That's about it. Come on now.
And actually, about VF and evade, you're missing the point. You say the only reason it works for VF is because they have sidestep, their universal evade that evades almost everything in the game. Calibur has a neutral game, and is a game that's a guaranteed combo game, but it doesn't have evades for everything, it has specific step killers. And it works just fine.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
In my defense regarding the newer evasive options in Doa, I haven't had any experience with the builds post alpha. It would be great if you can actually kbd your way out of trouble. In at least the Doa games I have played you couldn't really do that with frame advantage, much less being negative.
Does SS still get you counter or high counter thrown? Then you have getting hit out of a back dash being a high counter blow makes me feel like they are much larger risks. I remember talking about the movment buff, If those options are viable (and have healthy risk vs. reward) then awesome.
Part of what I was getting at with safe moves was mostly the fact that, If you want them safer, aim for -1_-2.**see edit** Maybe even lots of small traps. Hell, I would even like to see some useful LJT.(low jab traps.) It is kinda sick how limited Zack is from what has been said. Finding the balance between safe moves and string pressure seems like a hard one to me.
One argument I see on here from time to time is why do people attack out of disadvantage? (Since doing so in most other games will get you killed pretty fast, yet in doa it is a legit strat.)Usually I see the hold get blamed. To me it happens because almost every option has something that beats it regardless of advantage. Other then the true mixup of mid launcher/throw. As long as Attacks beat throws and you can crush anything other then a fast mid. (Very character and frame dependent.) I think we will continue to see it. Did Doa 3.1 get over this?
With guaranteed setups and frame advantage or? Is this actually veiwed as a problem even? If it is then Doa would really need to be a different game.
**Edit* After some thought on safety, I came to the conclusion that it should be character specific. Based on tools. Make what needs to be safe so. Making a blanket statement really doesn't do much good. Also, yay. Not a new member anymore.
To be honest I'm not sure what my point is. Just that Doa has lots of differences at play. I think even if the game would be standardized it would still be veiwed the way it is. Unless they want to turn most of the system upside down and start over maybe. It is possible I'm just afraid that through compromise we end up with a mutant game nobody still wants to play. From what I see so far the game looks great though.
Does SS still get you counter or high counter thrown? Then you have getting hit out of a back dash being a high counter blow makes me feel like they are much larger risks. I remember talking about the movment buff, If those options are viable (and have healthy risk vs. reward) then awesome.
Part of what I was getting at with safe moves was mostly the fact that, If you want them safer, aim for -1_-2.**see edit** Maybe even lots of small traps. Hell, I would even like to see some useful LJT.(low jab traps.) It is kinda sick how limited Zack is from what has been said. Finding the balance between safe moves and string pressure seems like a hard one to me.
One argument I see on here from time to time is why do people attack out of disadvantage? (Since doing so in most other games will get you killed pretty fast, yet in doa it is a legit strat.)Usually I see the hold get blamed. To me it happens because almost every option has something that beats it regardless of advantage. Other then the true mixup of mid launcher/throw. As long as Attacks beat throws and you can crush anything other then a fast mid. (Very character and frame dependent.) I think we will continue to see it. Did Doa 3.1 get over this?
With guaranteed setups and frame advantage or? Is this actually veiwed as a problem even? If it is then Doa would really need to be a different game.
**Edit* After some thought on safety, I came to the conclusion that it should be character specific. Based on tools. Make what needs to be safe so. Making a blanket statement really doesn't do much good. Also, yay. Not a new member anymore.
To be honest I'm not sure what my point is. Just that Doa has lots of differences at play. I think even if the game would be standardized it would still be veiwed the way it is. Unless they want to turn most of the system upside down and start over maybe. It is possible I'm just afraid that through compromise we end up with a mutant game nobody still wants to play. From what I see so far the game looks great though.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Three things. . . .
1. This:
Those list you are constructing, AkNova7, great. Though because TN feels this way, you are doing it just to be doing it. Dragging out a discussion to an eye that is blind to it. Helps no one.
2. This is a very late response. In regard to the latest balance test video. I have been away for a minute and I am catching up with a lot threads.
and
3. To the members that are doing it. Please stop changing the color of your post.
1. This:
Those list you are constructing, AkNova7, great. Though because TN feels this way, you are doing it just to be doing it. Dragging out a discussion to an eye that is blind to it. Helps no one.
2. This is a very late response. In regard to the latest balance test video. I have been away for a minute and I am catching up with a lot threads.
To correct this comment though, she could not have made that 11 hit juggle "12" with the moves you suggested. The opponent was too low to the ground for PP6Pk to connect. Also, an actual player would tech before the 2K would hit. Shimbori-san or whoever was doing that juggle did the most they could get out of it.
and
3. To the members that are doing it. Please stop changing the color of your post.
Shinigamimatt
Active Member
Are you sure? I've always been able to land the second 2K after that string from that height.
Edit: Oh, err yeah. They could tech out of that, you're right. He was only showing guaranteed damage then?
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Players are not tech'ing, that is why you able to get that off at that height.
This is correct.
Just emphasizing this. What Chris just said is why I believe a 4 point system would have been too much in DOA3 and why it's alright to have a 3 point system in that regard. You weren't worried about mix-ups on hit levels in DOA3, it was mix-ups on what type of attack it would be: Launcher, Knockback, Natural combo, or poke (low). If you threw in the 50-50 split of mid kick and mid punch I think the game would have literally turned out for the worst as no one would want to use the holds at all because launchers and knockbacks were so strong in the game that having to guess on which type of launcher was going to happen would have just killed it. Gen Fu is stupid enough where I don't want to have to guess between one of his mid kick launchers and his mid punch launchers.
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
Just wow, lol. Pandas all around the world are crying in sadness.