Dead or Alive competitive commentary

[Relius Starkiller]

. . . . . . . . . .online.

Go back and read what I wrote. Its practice and more than that, its entertainment. As long as they are developing their chemistry I don't care if they are calling the DOA online equivalent to Chris Christy ice skating up a muddy hill with a pork chop in his mouth - its about how it sounds. Calling what you see isn't difficult, calling what you see with another person sitting next to you isn't difficult but being good at it is.

And I went back and read what you said. . .Eh, I think Chosen1 is a good interviewer, he'd be a guy I'd want to have on stage but not calling matches.

Ninja CW I have never once heard him speak, so I'd have to look into that.

In every other competitive sport the commentators are expected to have some education or experience, I don't think I'm in the wrong by suggesting that gaming follow suit.

 

[DrDogg]

Do things go wrong online? Yes but the point is to find the matches that create at least a reasonable facsimile of an offline match.
If we get a final in DOAT. . .whatever- 76 - that both players admit is shit, we're still doing a pay out, we're still announcing a winner and we'll still throw up footage but will that footage be used as practice material - nope.

You don't have experience with competitive fighting games do you?

I say that because online play in fighting game is not the least bit accepted at a competitive level. Fighting games are far more sensitive to latency than any other genre of gaming. Some fighting games play better than others online, but even the best online experience in a fighting game is NEVER considered anything close to competitive offline matches.

I 100% agree that any commentating team needs practice, but online is not a good avenue for that practice. Perhaps you should go with people who already have commentating experience? Myself and Brady have both done commentary in the past, and even worked together for a short time at Evo (for MK). Alternatively, wait until DOA5 is out, then have people practice at small tournaments before pairing them up at majors.

This is what happens when guys don't have practice.

That is not acceptable for a major tournament final, not at all. If these guys had more time to work with each other, maybe it could have been better but lets be real here.

Neither of them really have the voice for it and thats an important consideration - how you sound.

Um... that's MarkMan and FilthyRich. They have been commentating Tekken matches for quite some time. You may have issues with their commentary, but you can't fault them for lack of practice.

And as far as breaks in Boxing, MMA and even basketball. . .there negligible. You usually have 3 to 4 solid minutes of action between breaks in Basketball. A free throw set of two shots lasts. . .20 seconds? An average set of street fighter lasts 2 to 3? Whats a fireball war in street fighter last. . .5 or 10? See what I'm getting at?

It's not just about the breaks. The speed of a fighting game match is SIGNIFICANTLY faster than any other competitive game or professional sport. So much so that you don't call a play-by-play. That is not what fighting game commentary is about. You do a little of that, but that's not why you're there. You talk about the strategy, you hype up the match and give background on the players. There's a little bit of education in there, but that's really only at the beginning.

I guess a person's voice is important, but I think that's being a little picky. The DOA community is already very small. You need to find someone who can travel, is knowledgeable about the game, is available during top 8, knows how to commentate well and has good chemistry with his partner. On top of all that, you also want someone with a really good voice? I can only think of 2-3 people in the entire FGC that have a really good commentary voice. It's just not a big concern at this point.

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I'll take all of that into consideration but I think it would be best to give guys something to practice with.

Again, you're not calling the match play-by-play the whole time - conceeded dogg - so why is it impossible for them to call the match and talk about strategy. Maybe you can mention latency issues every once in a while to be fair to the competitiors but once the cats out of the bag it becomes a non issue. Once you're at an offline event all you have to do is talk the match, less the connection issue.

MarkMan and FilthyRich wouldn't be acceptable as commentators for any big time MLG sponsored title.

Its like. . .I think people buy too much into the hype stuff.

During a Halo match if guys kept saying "Aww man, that takedown was so hype." Or "Kyle Webber, that guys so raw with the snipe." and on and on and on people would get tired of it. Tell me something about whats happening on the screen. Give me some back story on the players, who are they, how did they got here - tell a story.

Expecting mediocrity is a far stretch from accepting it.

Training three guys to do the work is beneficial for the very reason you're stating. If one or two DO get in the top 8, you've got one guy whos a professional and who can possibly run the booth with one or two other random players who were in the tournament.

And. . .maybe, if these guys are good enough and an opportunity presents itself, they may be compensated more for this work than playing.

But thats kind of like old folks pissing - it all depends.

Good discussion though and I'll get in touch will all of the people mentioned in the thread (Rabies, Chosen1, Tom Brady and Master of course) and you, Dr. Dogg to touch base in the future. I think everybody is smarter than they were back in the day so, maybe, we'll all be able to play a part in this - the community.

 

[DrDogg]

I know you didn't just mention MLG... *sigh* I didn't say I liked the Mark/Rich commentary, just that your accusation of them not having practiced was incorrect. Also, Rich was employed by MLG while Tekken 6 was in the league. He wasn't there for commentary, but I know he hopped on the mic from time to time. That said, MLG does not really know what they're doing when it comes to talent for fighting games. This includes writers, certain staff, etc., although I did enjoy the Seb and Rip on T6 commentary.

Also, for the last time, please stop comparing fighting games to any other genre of gaming. The communities are night and day, and the games are like apples and oranges. I don't like most fighting game commentary, but it's at least entertaining. I get bored watching Halo commentary.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Honestly, I'd rather have Rip on the commentary and Rich as a hype man. He always seems more like a hype man than a commentator. Rip on the other hand can be purely informative which is pretty much what you expect from commentators.

 

[Game Over]

Rip and QDogg are probably the best Tekken commentators I've heard. Then there's Aris who is HILARIOUS on anything he commentates on (Tekken, MK, SC, etc).

 

[Berzerk!]

DrDogg if you want new DOA offline matches with commentary I may be able to start building something in my local scene as a way to generate interest leading to DOA5. I've done commentary on SSF4, SC4/5 and VF5 in particular (in the "professional" or analytical style if you will, like yourself - what/why the players are doing what they're doing, speculate on the thought process and decision making, couple with a play by play/energy guy to play off of).

My local scene streams all its events and there should be opportunity to try some things.

Send me a msg if you're interested in something that might be useful simply as a test bed thing.

If you're looking at building personalities within the US scene then obviously I live outside of that.

 

[DrDogg]

DrDogg if you want new DOA offline matches with commentary I may be able to start building something in my local scene as a way to generate interest leading to DOA5. I've done commentary on SSF4, SC4/5 and VF5 in particular (in the "professional" or analytical style if you will, like yourself - what/why the players are doing what they're doing, speculate on the thought process and decision making, couple with a play by play/energy guy to play off of).

My local scene streams all its events and there should be opportunity to try some things.

Send me a msg if you're interested in something that might be useful simply as a test bed thing.

If you're looking at building personalities within the US scene then obviously I live outside of that.

I heard you at Shadowloo. Your commentary is solid. However, I'm not looking for anyone to do commentary for DOA4. It's the OP who's looking for that. I'm perfectly fine waiting for DOA5, then trying out commentators. I've talked to enough people in the community to know who has a chance at being good and who doesn't.

Also, I'd need people in the US for obvious reasons. ^_^

 

[UncleKitchener]

Berzerk, where are you right now, dude?

 

[The HuBBs]

australia

 

[Relius Starkiller]

I get bored watching Halo commentary.

I get bored watching fighting game commentary.

 

[UncleKitchener]

australia

Whoa, that's actually a long way from here (UK).

 

[d3v]

The best fighting game commentary I've heard is always with a two man team. I think three people would just clutter it up.

Two man team is enough. Great commentary teams are like great classic comedy acts. One guys acts as the straight man and does a blow-by-blow account, the other does colour and provides the background info and the hype.

The second is more important though, as I've always maintained, the purpose of commentary, especially in a genre as fast as fighting games, isn't to provide an emotional context for what's happening on screen. Just about everything the color commentator is saying, is there to provide a backdrop that helps the viewer get emotionally engaged in what they're watching.

If anyone's read my stuff in SRK, you know my example for this is as always, EVO Moment 37.

...you don't need to know why Daigo parrying Justin's SA2 in 3S is good since can clearly see the momentum shift - Daigo's Ken takes no damage and then does a shit ton of damage to Justin's Chun after that. Seth's job at that point in time was to provide context for that - explaining that Justin was about to put Daigo down, pointing out how Daigo was getting frustrated at Justin's defensive style (the whole "rare footage of Daigo actually getting angry" bit). Seth didn't need to go into technical details like explain how Daigo's parries totally negated the damage from Justin's SA2 because it was self evident (Daigo's life bar not shrinking). The icing on the cake was Seth giving in to the hype of the moment! This is important, since all the technical details in the world are useless if there isn't any emotional involvement. In this case, Seth hype (in addition to the crowd) helps involve the viewer emotionally. At that point in time, they're probably already feeling pretty hype about what Daigo did, Seth and the crowd's hype confirms that hype and helps bring it to another level - confirming the viewers feeling that yes, this is something amazing that you just saw.

As stated, alot of the important details in fighting games are pretty much on the screen already; life bars, etc. In fact, e-sports folks have been pointing out that fighters are more suited to broadcast than the other genres.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Why are we arguing about competitive commentary for a game with no competition?

 

[Awesmic]

Why are we arguing about competitive commentary for a game with no competition?

Because it isn't just about DOA4.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a guy showing sympathy for a "lapdog" of someone you're not too fond of...

 

[NinjaCW]

If I had to pick people to commentate on DoA matches (pref for DoA5) I would say DrDogg, Bill, and Manny are the best. I have never actually commentated on a DoA match . . .out loud anyway lol

 

[LivingShadow]

I'm attempting to learn how to commentate, and I agree with most of what DrDogg is saying. However, let me throw my own 2 pence in.

1: Fighters are too fast to do a literal play by play, you can't speak fast enough. The closest you can do is commentate on changes on match state (offensive shift, specific choices a player makes (especially uncommon ones like ending combos early), sudden reversals and why those reversals work) or on the current match state (spacing, fireball wars, corner pressure).
2: Hype is also important in keeping the audience interested. You want your audience on the edge of their seats. There are various ways of doing this, each person has their own method and those methods have varying degrees of success, depending on the audience of course.
3: In terms of teams, I think it's best with two people at most. If there are two people commentating they need some sort of dynamic where they bounce concepts off of each other. (For example, if one of them plays the character defending from a blockstring the other commentator could ask that person what viable ways that character has to get out.)
4: A one person team is doable and sometimes I think preferable for fighting games. With two people the matches go by so quickly that the subject that they were discussing one moment will be outdated within a few seconds. This is more true for games that have a faster pace.

In terms of "hype" commentary, as I call it, it has it's place. Primarily, when all the people involved are just goofing off and the match is semi-serious (or serious but not as serious as tournament matches). I like this kind of thing now and again but having all commentary like this would end up getting annoying rather fast.

As for online, it isn't impossible to commentate online matches, but the content of the matches would be questionable due to the input lag. The players would make decisions that they would not necessarily make against offline opponents and it changes way the game is played. As long as you are willing to deal with that, online matches are fine. But if you want something that would be comparable to tournament footage then you need offline matches because they lack several variables that online matches have.

 

[d3v]

1: Fighters are too fast to do a literal play by play, you can't speak fast enough. The closest you can do is commentate on changes on match state (offensive shift, specific choices a player makes (especially uncommon ones like ending combos early), sudden reversals and why those reversals work) or on the current match state (spacing, fireball wars, corner pressure).

At the same time though, fighters don't really hide alot of things from the viewer, let alone both players.

 

[LivingShadow]

At the same time though, fighters don't really hide alot of things from the viewer, let alone both players.

Very true, as you said, life bars and such are already on screen. But it doesn't hurt for the commentators to call attention to it to create suspense.

Also, to perform a true play by play on a fighting game match a lot of pausing is required.

And this is what it would look/sound like (this was streamed before it was put up to youtube so he's talking to the guys on the chat).

 

[grap3fruitman]

Because it isn't just about DOA4.

As much as I love the DOA games, none of them are being played competitively.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a guy showing sympathy for a "lapdog" of someone you're not too fond of...

The hell are you talking about? You've been acting really weird lately.