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[Shinigamimatt]

Haha, yeah can never tell with SC. I think it's every game just kinda changes the tier list too much.

 

[Rikuto]

There were no updates to SF2 after his introduction... well unless you count HD Remix where they tried balancing him but he was still broken.



Just because a character is top tier, doesn't make them overpowered. However, an overpowered character suggest they have more power than the average character, meaning they would be top tier. That is, unless all the characters would be considered 'overpowered', in which case the system has made them all balanced.

Which is why, kids, the correct answer for balancing any kind of competitive video game is to make everyone overpowered. Apart from making the game shallow and boring as hell with no real sense of danger, when you nerf everyone down to pathetic levels there will always be at least one character you inevitably miss that ends up stomping everybody else... but if everyone is stupid overpowered in their own way, everyone still stands a chance.


Of course, I do exaggerate the term "overpowered" quite a bit, but you get the idea.

 

[d3v]

Apart from making the game shallow and boring as hell with no real sense of danger, when you nerf everyone down to pathetic levels there will always be at least one character you inevitably miss that ends up stomping everybody else...

Case in point, Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter where Capcom their best to make a non-broken Vs series game. The end result was something that most players considered boring since every character played just about the same. Then off course, there was that one character that slipped through the cracks, Woverine (where else) with his speed up super that allowed you to keep comboing crouching fierce into itself until your opponent got dizzied, which was just in time for you to do the super again (since the combo built enough meter) to restart.

 

[d3v]

By making every single character OP, don't you get a balanced but fucked up game in the end?

The american fighting game community in general tends to love these (the MvC games, Skullgirls, etc.)

 

[Matt Ponton]

Also, Turbo is more known for being a touch of death game.

Ah, fighting entertainment.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

Akuma's air fireball introduced setups that none of the regular cast were designed to deal with. As Wah said, they broke the system. The later games in which he appeared in didn't have this problem since their systems took this into account. That, and they turned him into a glass cannon with less health than most of the cast.

For an example from a 3D game, think Ogre in Tekken 3, thanks to his powerful 12 frame unbreakable Waning Moon throw with guaranteed follow ups and numerous unblockables. Then there's Tekken 5 Steve with a guaranteed easy infinite in a game not designed to handle them. That is on top of already being a top tier character.

On a related note, I'd consider giving some Soul Calibur examples, but their community is so ban happy it's hard to tell what's truly broken and what's simply the flavor of the month.
Of all the SF games, the 2 series is still the one that emphasizes space control and footsies more than flash and combos. It's also the one that the most demanding in terms of match up knowledge from a series that's already known to be very demanding in terms of match up knowledge.

Also, Turbo is more known for being a touch of death game.

Neat, but to be truthfully fair, that looked more skilled than watching a guy spam Haduken all match. I know that it's suppose to be a spacing tool, but with me being nothing but awful at those games I will never see it as anything more than cheap spam.

At least up to IV. My friend brought that over and I put it down after 8 Ryu matches from different people all doing the same thing.

 

[Rikuto]

By making every single character OP, don't you get a balanced but fucked up game in the end?

Well, define "fucked up".

My options are good. Your options are good. Both take skill to get going since we have to avoid each others options at the same time. High level players will consistently beat low level players because of the awareness of these options.

Sounds like a fundamentally solid, and entirely exceptional fighting game.

So where does the fucked up part come into play, really? The only time it might feel like that is when one player is good and one is not. Frankly, the one who is not probably has no business fighting the one who does unless he is trying to learn something.

And even if you throw out the entire concept behind "make everything OP" you will still have this problem because low level players are usually pretty derpy.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

Well, define "fucked up".

My options are good. Your options are good. Both take skill to get going since we have to avoid each others options at the same time. High level players will consistently beat low level players because of the awareness of these options.

Sounds like a fundamentally solid, and entirely exceptional fighting game.

So where does the fucked up part come into play, really? The only time it might feel like that is when one player is good and one is not. Frankly, the one who is not probably has no business fighting the one who does unless he is trying to learn something.

This is what Blazblue felt like when I wanted to learn it back some time ago. Possibly Guilty Gear too

 

[Rikuto]

Those games very good examples of that type of balance, as well.

They are a bit too fast for my preference, actually, but the fundamental balance of it is astounding.

 

[d3v]

Another thing, with that type of design, you're usually not fighting your own character's weakness, but rather against your opponents strengths.

 

[MasterHavik]

I know some Jann. He's good, but he's not op. That's dumb. It's almost as bad as saying the ninjas are cheap.

 

[Tenren]

im going to say no, mostly cuz i play Lee lol. I hated him in DOA4. All you had to do was hold mid kick or high punch. After you fig this out all i could do was turtle and punish. The whole point of my play would revolve around stuns and getting behind you. With 4s broken hold out of everything this was near impossible. Also on dragon kicks. 90% of the time they are ducked or I'm randomly hit out of them lmao

 

[Rikuto]

With fucked up I mean a game like MvC2 where every character is gifted with some easy infinite combo to do or similar broken stuff for a fighting game...

It's about presentation, really. People don't gripe about ringouts in soul calibur/VF because you have to set them up, and because its instant death you don't have to wait through for 20 seconds.

Sure, MVC2 is big on the endless combos of incredible stupidity... and a certain crowd likes that type of thing.

That's not really what I'm talking about though. You don't need to give every character an infinite to make them all insanely good. They just need one or two completely dominant factors about them that stand out above all other characters.

A contrast....

Bass had the ability to kill someone instantly in 3.1 if they countered once or did something unsafe and you had good technical skill. And if he knocked you down, you got put into the pick up loop from hell. This made him fucking amazing.

Jann Lee had frame advantage sweating from his body, and he could use that to push you to the wall and do horrible horrible things to you once he got you there. This made him fucking amazing.

Different types of fighting, both insanely good and arguably "overpowered" in the eyes of a lower level player, yet the only time something akin to a "death combo" would happen is when someone fucked up on a level of epic proportions and 100% deserved it. These things did not happen every round, or even every match.

When both players feel as though they are powerful as hell, they can play with confidence and get creative. That's something a good fighter demands.

 

[Rikuto]

Not to forget WUWUWUWUwuwuwuh...

 

[akhi216]

I'll say this, if a Jann Lee user beats me it wouldn't be because of Dragon Kick use. About 95% of the time someone tries it I step to the side with a high hold then run immediately behind them to punish with my strongest back throw (or a bouncing combo to follow up with more damage on DOAD/4). High level Jann Lee user remove the Dragon Kick from their repertoire against me after 2-3 times using it.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Not to mention that in DOA4 you can actually throw punish him after being hit by it in open space if you tech...

 

[Matt Ponton]

Yes.

 

[d3v]

With fucked up I mean a game like MvC2 where every character is gifted with some easy infinite combo to do or similar broken stuff for a fighting game...

Being top in MvC2 had nothing to do with infinites, that almost every character, including the bottom tier had. Most of the long combos you see in high level matches are actually resets where you drop and restart the combo to get past the 50 hit hard cap and damage scaling. What defined top tier in MvC2 was a combination of having the best space control (Cable) or the best mobility (Storm, Magneto, Sentinel).

However, the design principles that Rikuto mentioned still apply there (despite the bottom 40 or so characters being crap). The match ups between the top tier were so much more deep and interesting. Cable is one of the best zoning characters made in any game ever while Magnus is arguably the best rushdown character ever made in any game (with the ability to combo you almost immediately after the last one ends with the right assists). So it's then a battle of strength vs. strength. Same thing with Storm and Sent who, in addition to having rushdown almost on par with Mags, have the best mobility of any characters in any FG ever made. Sentinel has the better flight mode, but Storm can fly higher gaining a slight advantage, so when these two fight the game goes a hundred feet higher as both players try to get the advantage.

 

[ScattereDreams]

No

 

[LondonLust]

I had an irresistible urge to choose the fourth option, so I had to do it.

But seriously, he's not OP at all...