x Sypher x
Active Member
Lmao that is great XD It's even funnier because I love oatmeal cookies lol.
Do you think Team Ninja Has the balls to bring this game to events for testing 'in the wild"?
- Thread starter ShinMaruku
- Start date
Lmao that is great XD It's even funnier because I love oatmeal cookies lol.
Ubersuntzu
New Member
I don't think any publicly traded corporation would have the balls to expose their games to criticism prior to release if their brand names didn't at least guarantee they'd get a fair shot.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
DOA sells just as well as any other current fighting game. I don't think Tecmo would be risking overall sales to show the game off at a tournament. At most, they'd be risking the tournament life of the game... but if the game ends up being good, it will have tournament life.
DriftSlave
Active Member
If this game wants to be in the competitive light then they should be trying to Demo the game at every big major that's on the road to Evo..because waiting for E3 is just far too late in my honest opinion. There are too many good fighters out there in the wild now that have communities playing them, DOA5 doesn't really have a chance if KT don't get behind their game. EVEN SEGA has stepped up their game and had VF5FS at Super NCR( I got to play the hell out of that game there) and Sega is going to have a cabinet at SouthTown Arcade soon to help sell the game and re-establish a community for VF. I don't see DOA doing any of this...instead they make fan spend $100 USD on a damn alpha demo(because 90% of you guys mite not give a damn about NG) so this is already rather bad.
Sure now they are giving out a feedback page on their official site(so you guys don't blow up their Twitter) but the fact is, you have to get on their shit because without it...nothing is going to get done. I want to see DOA at EVO, I want to be apart of the scene(I was around for 3.1) but that can't happen if KT don't get the game out and playable to the people that it matters to...it's community. That is generally the whole point of this topic...is to speculate on this. Is team ninja going to do the right thing and demo and beta test the game to it's community and actually use user feedback....
I read alot of stuff you guys were talking about in the other threads....and after playing hours of the alpha...I know it needs to change...the question is how and why. anyways...that ends this rant.
Sure now they are giving out a feedback page on their official site(so you guys don't blow up their Twitter) but the fact is, you have to get on their shit because without it...nothing is going to get done. I want to see DOA at EVO, I want to be apart of the scene(I was around for 3.1) but that can't happen if KT don't get the game out and playable to the people that it matters to...it's community. That is generally the whole point of this topic...is to speculate on this. Is team ninja going to do the right thing and demo and beta test the game to it's community and actually use user feedback....
I read alot of stuff you guys were talking about in the other threads....and after playing hours of the alpha...I know it needs to change...the question is how and why. anyways...that ends this rant.
x Sypher x
Active Member
^^^ YES. You are absolutely right about that.
This is the same build that was available to the press over three months ago. Team Ninja specifically knowledgeable DOA players not show up to said event because they didn't want people breaking down the game. We could've given them the the feedback they're getting now three months ago and we'd have a better game already, instead, they held off on it and pushed the game's progress back at least three months.
x Sypher x
Active Member
Oh wow I just realized that too now haha. It is rather odd how they are handling things.
Ubersuntzu
New Member
I dunno about that. I don't have much to back me up, but I feel like the gaming market, internet buzz and especially the economy have changed a lot since the last time a DOA game was released on consoles. There are a lot more casuals and a lot more effort being put into grabbing casual sales. Hardcore communities on the internet (not specifically competitive fighting gamers who probably appreciate more variety in the genre, but just gaming enthusiasts) seem a lot more likely to generate as much blow back as they possibly can early on at the first sign of being slighted.
They might be more willing to take out their frustration on a "titty fighter" than anybody else, especially after the reception to NG 3.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
The difference between Sega showing VF5:FS and Tecmo showing DOA5 is that Final Showdown has been a finished product for nearly two years. Also, VF5 doesn't really need to be "fixed" and already has a competitive scene (in Japan). DOA needs to be fixed before it has any chance at a competitive scene.
I wouldn't mind DOA5 showing up at a tournament, but not until it's ready. For instance, if Tecmo brought the demo to Final Round, it would just get thrashed and people would assume DOA hasn't changed. Very few people at Final Round would have treated the game like they treated TTT2 or VF5:FS.
Trust me when I say that people have been in touch with Tecmo and they seem very open to getting the game in the right hands and getting feedback from the right people.
DriftSlave
Active Member
I'm very aware of VF5FS being in the arcade for awhile since the last US release(VF5ver.D, R ,FS ver.A), and to be honest....DOA desperately needs to go back to the arcade for the very reason. But since we know that is not going to happen...what we can do to help change the progress of its console release is to get KT out there and beta test the game. SCV was a direct console release and they had a stream(Tokyo game night I believe) where they had players test play the game, and SCV had decent world wide exposure to it's community( essentially everyone got to play it before it was release). Now SCV was far from perfect(2 month later balance patch) but it's alive and kicking.
This is largely due to Project Soul Overhauling Soul Calibur in general...If DOA was to get a serious revisions like SCV did then maybe I can see something happening. The big thing is....what do they need to do? people have been throwing around the ideas of meter and stuff but i don't think that would fix the problem(I do like the idea of holds or expert holds costing meter >_>) however another good idea was brought up...Holds doing grey damage like if it was a focus attack in SFIV. however that doesn't too much either because a jab or even the stage would kill the grey health....so it leaves me to think...how should they approach holds now. Holds are what make DOA unique...the 3 way system is DOA's core...so how can we make it work without being a game of rock paper scissors?
If we look back at past iterations holds worked differently in say DOA1 and ++ but would going back to that really fix anything? not really...actually it seems like they tried to do away with offensive holds all together...with Hayabusa and Ayane only retaining their Offensive Holds(Ayane's is now full run F+P). Why did they do this? and what should we take from that? There are alot of questions that do need answers and KT doesn't have the best PR in the world....so things can be annoying in this phase of development....
This is largely due to Project Soul Overhauling Soul Calibur in general...If DOA was to get a serious revisions like SCV did then maybe I can see something happening. The big thing is....what do they need to do? people have been throwing around the ideas of meter and stuff but i don't think that would fix the problem(I do like the idea of holds or expert holds costing meter >_>) however another good idea was brought up...Holds doing grey damage like if it was a focus attack in SFIV. however that doesn't too much either because a jab or even the stage would kill the grey health....so it leaves me to think...how should they approach holds now. Holds are what make DOA unique...the 3 way system is DOA's core...so how can we make it work without being a game of rock paper scissors?
If we look back at past iterations holds worked differently in say DOA1 and ++ but would going back to that really fix anything? not really...actually it seems like they tried to do away with offensive holds all together...with Hayabusa and Ayane only retaining their Offensive Holds(Ayane's is now full run F+P). Why did they do this? and what should we take from that? There are alot of questions that do need answers and KT doesn't have the best PR in the world....so things can be annoying in this phase of development....
x Sypher x
Active Member
^^^ Which is why we literally need to get on TN's ass with our feedback and get our best players out there to test the game when the opportunity arises.
matsu
Member
I have the feeling that doa needs a total rework at this point and not only minor tweaks.
-movement
-attacks
-throws
-holds
-counter
-stun
--mixups everywhere
-no natural combos.
-cancel and delay in almost every string
-frame advantage disadvantage
-triangle system
- no interesting pushback /holdable guard break
-where are the reads and the mind game?only guessing everywhere every time.
-you attack you get held.
-you attack and get blocked you take a throw and you can't break it.7frames for a throw any string blocked -10 or more except a jab and and one or two other moves.
-You block you get mixed up because 80% of lows are almost unreadable.(screen shaking in doa5 won't help it)
-wake up game almost inexistant
-three different phantom wake up kicks (one more guess)etc...
Why would you fix the wheel of your car if the engine is dead?But the question is,is it really dead?
You could make a thread for any point of gameplay with 100 post of brainstorming.I am pessimistic for doa5 even though i'd like it to be a solid competiive game.And if Team ninja doesn't listen to the competent community or let the game being properly tested in "the wild" we are doomed.
They simply might be afraid of bringing their game at events because of the bad feedback it could receive from experienced player , considering the reputation of doa has now.And the fail of NG3
-movement
-attacks
-throws
-holds
-counter
-stun
--mixups everywhere
-no natural combos.
-cancel and delay in almost every string
-frame advantage disadvantage
-triangle system
- no interesting pushback /holdable guard break
-where are the reads and the mind game?only guessing everywhere every time.
-you attack you get held.
-you attack and get blocked you take a throw and you can't break it.7frames for a throw any string blocked -10 or more except a jab and and one or two other moves.
-You block you get mixed up because 80% of lows are almost unreadable.(screen shaking in doa5 won't help it)
-wake up game almost inexistant
-three different phantom wake up kicks (one more guess)etc...
Why would you fix the wheel of your car if the engine is dead?But the question is,is it really dead?
You could make a thread for any point of gameplay with 100 post of brainstorming.I am pessimistic for doa5 even though i'd like it to be a solid competiive game.And if Team ninja doesn't listen to the competent community or let the game being properly tested in "the wild" we are doomed.
They simply might be afraid of bringing their game at events because of the bad feedback it could receive from experienced player , considering the reputation of doa has now.And the fail of NG3
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I don't know any SC players (aside from a few Ivy players) who think SC5 is better post-patch.
To this I remind you of...
Early reports indicate that NG3 actually sold quite well. Also, I've heard nothing but positive things from the casual crowd when it comes to DOA.
DriftSlave
Active Member
NG3 is the worse in the series...by most peoples standards only casuals who's first experience to NG was NG3 would say its great. it seems without Itagaki..they can't do NG right (Simga 2 was good tho). Also high sells =/= good game....as far as Post-Patch SCV, I didn't say it was better, I said people are still playing~ however since I know the guys from 8-way rather well...i know they like it..so idk.
back to DOA tho...I'm just worried that they are focusing on things that don't really matter...like not on the core gameplay...maybe its that we haven't seen enough of it yet...maybe they have a few aces up their sleeve...who knows...
back to DOA tho...I'm just worried that they are focusing on things that don't really matter...like not on the core gameplay...maybe its that we haven't seen enough of it yet...maybe they have a few aces up their sleeve...who knows...
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
There was no mention of how good/bad NG3 is. You simply said NG3 failed. Most companies view success and failure primarily by sales figures. In that regard, based on early reports, NG3 is far from a failure.
You implied that SC5 was far from perfect which is why there was balance patch. That made me think you meant that the game is better post-patch, which is what I disagree with.
Also, who at 8WR likes the game better post-patch? The backdash nerf alone has turned a lot of people off. They still play, but most agree that things were better before the patch.
Well, until the next trailer and/or we get our hands on the E3 build, we don't know what they're focusing on. I've stated many, many times that the demo is basically DOA 4.5 due to how old the code is. I only chime in concerning the demo when other people say that it's competitive. I don't want Team Ninja thinking that the demo is good (from a competitive standpoint -- casually it's great).
Having played DOA4 quite a bit before it released, I know that BIG changes can be made within the final 30-60 days of development. Even if the E3 build is very close to the demo, I still believe that the final product can be competitive if Team Ninja accepts our feedback and makes the proper changes. So... we'll see.
DriftSlave
Active Member
As for SCV stuff, Mitsurugi, and Viola players would vouch for me. Hell, Soakrates, KrayzieCD and other known Nor Cal players would...there are a good % of characters who didn't get nerfs at all or it didnt make a difference in the end...so I'm not seeing the problem(tho Xiba[Alex J] was nerfed he just won a Major....nuff said). I brought up the patch because it was rather sudden, usually games go awhile before a balance patch...apparently that wasn't the case for SCV....
This is the problem for me...Why should TN wait this long for the next build? E3 is in the summer...Why do we need to wait that long?(aside from the fact that E3 isnt truly open to the public anymore) before long...the game will be closer to completion and lessens the chance for drastic changes they may or may not need to happen. Instead they should hold events all through the time of pre-release instead of holding out for big events....its not a RPG or a action game...its a fighting game that it's success hinges on it's community/fan base...Initial sales will only get them so far....with NG3 leaving a bad taste in peoples mouths..not everyone is lining up for DOA5 per say...I mean...its under the radar still while Tag 2 is still hyped.
Team Ninja will make a profit off the sales of DOA5 however they should know that Capcom and Namco are making a killing from being involved with the FGC...something they are not attempting to do it seems. Capcom Puts out alot of money for Tournaments and Events for their games showing that they have a strong community....Team Ninja needs to see where their Community is and reel them in and have them build upon it. If not...they will never catch up to Capcom or Namco in that regard and DOA will stay a casual fighter to the FGC.
This is the problem for me...Why should TN wait this long for the next build? E3 is in the summer...Why do we need to wait that long?(aside from the fact that E3 isnt truly open to the public anymore) before long...the game will be closer to completion and lessens the chance for drastic changes they may or may not need to happen. Instead they should hold events all through the time of pre-release instead of holding out for big events....its not a RPG or a action game...its a fighting game that it's success hinges on it's community/fan base...Initial sales will only get them so far....with NG3 leaving a bad taste in peoples mouths..not everyone is lining up for DOA5 per say...I mean...its under the radar still while Tag 2 is still hyped.
Team Ninja will make a profit off the sales of DOA5 however they should know that Capcom and Namco are making a killing from being involved with the FGC...something they are not attempting to do it seems. Capcom Puts out alot of money for Tournaments and Events for their games showing that they have a strong community....Team Ninja needs to see where their Community is and reel them in and have them build upon it. If not...they will never catch up to Capcom or Namco in that regard and DOA will stay a casual fighter to the FGC.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, SC5 was more balanced before the patch than it is now. What major did Alex win? He got second at NCR, losing to NoFace. My main issue with the patch is that Namco listened to the wrong people. Why was backdash nerfed? Why is ZWEI still the worst in the game? Why was Viola buffed when she was already very solid? Why was Xiba nerfed when there are ways around some of his best stuff? Why are Yoshi's Tekken moves still random (you may as well just remove them from the game)?
Out of the 240 changes made, only a handful were necessary and most didn't make sense.
Let's look at the DOA5 timeline that we know of:
- Announced at TGS with trailers in Sept/Oct 2011.
- Media day in SF in Dec 2011 with new footage and an updated build.
- Demo announced to be included with NG3 in Dec 2011.
- US and UK press tour for NG3 with DOA demo on hand in February 2012.
- Akira trailer in March 2012.
- Demo videos released throughout March 2012, building up to the release of the demo in late March 2012.
- More reveals planned before E3 2012.
- Playable build at E3 2012 in June.
The only months in which we didn't get much from Tecmo were November and January. What more would you like to see? You want a build at Final Round? That wouldn't work well because it would be more updated than the demo, and even if you put the demo at Final Round, it's competing with all of those tournaments, Cross Assault, VF5:FS and TTT2. How much exposure would it really have gotten there?
What other tournaments are there between now and E3? E3 is only two months away. You've got a couple of Evo season events, but none that I would say are big tournaments. We don't yet know what Tecmo's plans are after E3, so the game may show up at Evo or another big event after E3 (SDCC comes to mind).
Out of the 240 changes made, only a handful were necessary and most didn't make sense.
Let's look at the DOA5 timeline that we know of:
- Announced at TGS with trailers in Sept/Oct 2011.
- Media day in SF in Dec 2011 with new footage and an updated build.
- Demo announced to be included with NG3 in Dec 2011.
- US and UK press tour for NG3 with DOA demo on hand in February 2012.
- Akira trailer in March 2012.
- Demo videos released throughout March 2012, building up to the release of the demo in late March 2012.
- More reveals planned before E3 2012.
- Playable build at E3 2012 in June.
The only months in which we didn't get much from Tecmo were November and January. What more would you like to see? You want a build at Final Round? That wouldn't work well because it would be more updated than the demo, and even if you put the demo at Final Round, it's competing with all of those tournaments, Cross Assault, VF5:FS and TTT2. How much exposure would it really have gotten there?
What other tournaments are there between now and E3? E3 is only two months away. You've got a couple of Evo season events, but none that I would say are big tournaments. We don't yet know what Tecmo's plans are after E3, so the game may show up at Evo or another big event after E3 (SDCC comes to mind).
DriftSlave
Active Member
I didn't finish watching top 8 so my mistake >_> *alex why you lie to me? ;-;* but still, the changes the made apparently were for a reason, and people have said the game is more competitive now because people having to work harder for wins(except for maybe Mitsu players >_>)
It's not that I would have wanted a final round specific build, it's that they should have had the game there...period old build or not. If VF5 was there why shouldn't they be there? Im not saying TN needs to be like capcom and have a CrossAssult ripoff(they would just Kill top players moral), Im saying the need to act like they care about the FGC and be apart of it then just saying...uhh we are making DOA5 you should be happy.
Compared to it's competition, DOA5 has the least amount of exposure. You can say 2 min long trailers are all the exposure you need but...when you have Sega who doesn't normally support shit outside of Sonic getting to events like Final Round, NCR, Etc. for people to play the game, you know that means something clicked over there. Maybe I'm just hyped for VF5FS, knowing I'll be able to play it in my local arcade soon(southtown arcade), knowing I have a scene for KOFXIII(southtown rambats) and VF5 in my area as well as SCV(nor cal is big on SC) and other fighting games.
I honestly don't remember tecmo ever doing anything for Comic Con...so that seems like a dead idea(though Capcom and Namco do, Hell Sega was at PAX with VF5FS). I honestly believe that Koei-Tecmo should be whoring the game out to all events to get exposure saying we are trying to get everyone to play it, you want more people playing the game...not just people who bought NG3 but EVERYONE, thats why you go to events, thats why you hold play test events...the SF event is a terrible example...hardly anyone knew about that event outside of people in the DOA community...Capcom hosting a fightclub thats news everywhere. Im not saying they need deep pockets like Capcom, but they just need to go...and be there...like Sega...set up a booth and just Go. It's better then not going at all...
It's not that I would have wanted a final round specific build, it's that they should have had the game there...period old build or not. If VF5 was there why shouldn't they be there? Im not saying TN needs to be like capcom and have a CrossAssult ripoff(they would just Kill top players moral), Im saying the need to act like they care about the FGC and be apart of it then just saying...uhh we are making DOA5 you should be happy.
Compared to it's competition, DOA5 has the least amount of exposure. You can say 2 min long trailers are all the exposure you need but...when you have Sega who doesn't normally support shit outside of Sonic getting to events like Final Round, NCR, Etc. for people to play the game, you know that means something clicked over there. Maybe I'm just hyped for VF5FS, knowing I'll be able to play it in my local arcade soon(southtown arcade), knowing I have a scene for KOFXIII(southtown rambats) and VF5 in my area as well as SCV(nor cal is big on SC) and other fighting games.
I honestly don't remember tecmo ever doing anything for Comic Con...so that seems like a dead idea(though Capcom and Namco do, Hell Sega was at PAX with VF5FS). I honestly believe that Koei-Tecmo should be whoring the game out to all events to get exposure saying we are trying to get everyone to play it, you want more people playing the game...not just people who bought NG3 but EVERYONE, thats why you go to events, thats why you hold play test events...the SF event is a terrible example...hardly anyone knew about that event outside of people in the DOA community...Capcom hosting a fightclub thats news everywhere. Im not saying they need deep pockets like Capcom, but they just need to go...and be there...like Sega...set up a booth and just Go. It's better then not going at all...
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I definitely understand what you're saying, but you also have to understand where DOA5 is at in terms of development and where Tecmo is heading with the game.
As I said, having it at Final Round would not have done much. There were so many other games, it would've been a waste of money from my point of view.
It's great to see Sega supporting VF, but look at what they're doing. It was at two events and will be at one of the few remaining arcades in the US for a small group of people to play. I guarantee the DOA5 demo is being played by more people than VF5:FS (if you combine FR, NCR, Southtown and PAX). I'd much rather have a demo of VF5:FS than have an arcade cab all those events (even though I was at FR).
If the choice is between a demo, and going to every major between now and release, I'd choose the demo every time.
As I said, having it at Final Round would not have done much. There were so many other games, it would've been a waste of money from my point of view.
It's great to see Sega supporting VF, but look at what they're doing. It was at two events and will be at one of the few remaining arcades in the US for a small group of people to play. I guarantee the DOA5 demo is being played by more people than VF5:FS (if you combine FR, NCR, Southtown and PAX). I'd much rather have a demo of VF5:FS than have an arcade cab all those events (even though I was at FR).
If the choice is between a demo, and going to every major between now and release, I'd choose the demo every time.