DOA5 Demo: Consolidated Feedback

[DrDogg]

More guard breaks and frame advantage. No holding out of GB and deep stuns. More evasive sidestep, more evasive quickstep.

I'd like it if grappler characters(NOT HAYABUSA) had the option of a powerblow that turns into a throw, or a powerblow that cancels into an counter throw.

Frame advantage won't matter in the current system, but I do agree with no holding out of GB or deep stuns.

I'm not sure about canceling a PB into a throw. As long as you can step it, or it doesn't lead to big damage I'm okay with it.

 

[Dr. Teeth]

To be honest, I've always wanted the hold inputs to go back to the way they were in arcade DOA2 (4 point holds with two directions). I have no idea how that would work in conjunction with advanced holds though, as there would be no reason why you would ever not go for the advanced hold as it would be just as easy to do as a normal hold input wise.

 

[MrMoon360]

i think team ninja has done a great job so far and I think its a very viable fighter. it is just different and you need to be a little more open minded about that.

I hope Rikuto can respect a post like that.
I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[MrMoon360]

When you have a game that relies on guessing right every time you do something, no one will want to play it competitively. People don't want to put time into a game where people can beat you by guessing.

This demo is still: Guess for stun, then guess again for next stun or launch. And because launchers are generally mid, 3 point holds kill them.

Whether the game is viable or not is still a matter of personal opinion, regardless. I will play this competitively, as well as Tekken Tag 2 when it comes out.
I've played the DOA5a demo many times "competitively" with my rival already. I've seen this "guessing" the competitive junkie speaks of. Yes it can happen, but it can also be punished given the recovery time after a counter. I learned to wait for a counter instead of go for a launcher in some situations where an ability to counter is given.
Its a satisfying mix-up.

I think its better than: Stun-- wait til enormous combo is done. MvC3, SFxT, and SCV have this. (SCV even more so than its predecessor)
I prefer MK9 over all 3.

If its what's "popular" is what is viable in your book, then I guess you listen to public radio and find that is "music" what they play nowadays.

 

[Jefffcore]

Whether the game is viable or not is still a matter of personal opinion, regardless. I will play this competitively, as well as Tekken Tag 2 when it comes out.
I've played the DOA5a demo many times "competitively" with my rival already. I've seen this "guessing" the competitive junkie speaks of. Yes it can happen, but it can also be punished given the recovery time after a counter. I learned to wait for a counter instead of go for a launcher in some situations where an ability to counter is given.
Its a satisfying mix-up.

I think its better than: Stun-- wait til enormous combo is done. MvC3, SFxT, and SCV have this. (SCV even more so than its predecessor)
I prefer MK9 over all 3.

If its what's "popular" is what is viable in your book, then I guess you listen to public radio and find that is "music" what they play nowadays.

I'd like something new. I don't want to have to get a stun and have to guess if you're going to hold or not every single time, as does most the community. 'Nuff said.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I'd like it if grappler characters(NOT HAYABUSA) had the option of a powerblow that turns into a throw, or a powerblow that cancels into an counter throw.

What if the grapplers got... Power Throws? See what I did there?

 

[Allan Paris]

What if the grapplers got... Power Throws? See what I did there?

This would be a nice twist. I'd like to see Leon or Bayman get a guaranteed combo throw from it, with the last throw tossing you clean across the map, or into shit head first.

 

[Rikuto]

See you have this issue Rikuto of pretending to know what you are talking about and really 9 times out of 10 you are kind of full of shit.

I'm the kind of personality that looks for the answers to questions nobody asks. That's the reason I'm successful where so many other people fail.

See Raansu, you have this issue of whining about shit endlessly and making up excuses so you don't have to push yourself to find a solution. 9 times out of 10, you just end up psyching yourself out instead of taking the extra step to actually become good at something and enjoying it. That's why I'll always be better than you in anything competitive, and that's why I can always talk down to you as though I know everything. Because compared to you, I do.

I do not harbor any resentment towards SCV...Never have I once called it a bad game and I certainly don't refuse to play it for some made up reason you throw onto people.

Yea you do. You got downright pissed off the last time this was brought up and I mentioned astaroth damage as a very fair comparison to full stun-threshold damage in DOA. You're still bitter over it and resent the very mention of the game.

I don't have the patience to learn new fighters anymore, nor do I care, I lost interest in fighters long after DoA4 came out and only picked up VF5 because I enjoyed going to the arcades.

I did not find SCV fun, simple as that, I did not like it. I never once said it was a bad game.

No, you just insinuate that it's bad with comments about how taking half life in DOA would be broken, when it is commonplace in SCV and virtually every other fighter. I wouldn't find anything fun either if all I did was get my ass kicked over and over again and whine about it instead of actively search for solutions.

These were not excuses for anything, just simple facts that you like to turn into some philosophical BS and act like you know what you are saying.

You're salty because it hits pretty close to home and there is nothing you can do about it. Your mentality won't let you improve and show me that I'm wrong.

BTW, no you would not beat me in VF5FS.

Yes, I would. I have the mentality for improvement and you have the mentality for running away and making excuses. You will never overcome that. Then again, you aren't going to compete in that game either, so that's the excuse you need to stay out of the harsh reality I would put upon you. Stick to star wars.

I'm tired of these stupid arguments. You hate DoA now, good for you. If DoA5 sucks, so be it, I wont play it. Bickering on a forum about what could happen is pointless right now as we really have no control on the outcome of the title.

If DOA 5 sucks, itl be because people like you wanted it to turn out this way so team ninja steered it in that direction. Of course, people won't take responsibility for that. Most of you guys probably won't even play the game past a month. The ones that try to will be stuck with the pile of shit that YOU asked for.

Regardless of all this I still consider you a good friend Rikuto and hope you do well in SCV.

I really don't consider you that much of a friend these days. To be blunt, I hold no respect for cowards and i'm tired of listening to weak minded individuals who do nothing but make excuses instead of working towards self improvement. I have even further distaste when you would go so far as to sink someone elses ship so you can leave in your own illusionary world. We share nothing in common.

But don't worry, I'm doing just fine in soul calibur. And because I work towards things instead of complain, I'll only keep getting better.

I hope Rikuto can respect a post like that.
I agree wholeheartedly.

I can respect the part that is true. It IS a different fighter. It's bad.

But why should I be open minded about something I've put hundreds more hours into than basically anybody here? I don't have to be open minded. I already know everything based the amount of time I've spent and tournament placements I've made.

I understand the truth, fully, because I have seen everything from every angle that there is. Emporer Cow has not, but is still willing to make blind proclaimations. This is the part I cannot respect.

 

[x Sypher x]

The moral of the story: Self-improvement. I actually find it kind of fitting in DOA's current state. Although technically the game cannot improve itself, that's the dev's job lol.

 

[Darrell]

I want to be able to do 1:21 with sidestep

 

[Master_Thespian]

If DOA was just VF's system + ground hits + environment interaction + universal DOA1 counters I'd be thrilled.

 

[Vyse]

It's kind of hard to only imagine how a hold-free stun game would play out. Compelling points are made in favor of it, but I want a hands-on evaluation, so it can "prove" itself as a clear superior choice.

That's why I think they should first try adding an option to TOGGLE what "stun system" is used. Make the current setup the default, but allow offline setting to be configured so that:

- No holds could occur in stun
- Stun threshold is lower (2-3 hits)
- Deep stuns maximize the threshold, or push it to the limit (next hit causes knockdown, launch, reset)

It lets people test the effect removing holds in stun will have on DOA, while still allowing no-holds-barred (*rimshot*) play as the alternative.

- Maybe give the option to customize online searches so players can use either system and will only be matched up with others who search for the same conditions.

 

[x Sypher x]

If DOA was just VF's system + ground hits + environment interaction + universal DOA1 counters I'd be thrilled.

That probably wouldn't be bad at all lol. Last time I checked you could not counter in stun or in the middle of a string while being hit, in that game...i think.

 

[x Sypher x]

I want to be able to do 1:21 with sidestep

Dam that sidestepping was dope lol.

 

[DR2K]

Frame advantage won't matter in the current system, but I do agree with no holding out of GB or deep stuns.

I'm not sure about canceling a PB into a throw. As long as you can step it, or it doesn't lead to big damage I'm okay with it.

Just asking, why wouldn't it matter and what would need to change for it to matter?

 

[Raansu]

I'm the kind of personality that looks for the answers to questions nobody asks. That's the reason I'm successful where so many other people fail.

See Raansu, you have this issue of whining about shit endlessly and making up excuses so you don't have to push yourself to find a solution. 9 times out of 10, you just end up psyching yourself out instead of taking the extra step to actually become good at something and enjoying it. That's why I'll always be better than you in anything competitive, and that's why I can always talk down to you as though I know everything. Because compared to you, I do.



Yea you do. You got downright pissed off the last time this was brought up and I mentioned astaroth damage as a very fair comparison to full stun-threshold damage in DOA. You're still bitter over it and resent the very mention of the game.



No, you just insinuate that it's bad with comments about how taking half life in DOA would be broken, when it is commonplace in SCV and virtually every other fighter. I wouldn't find anything fun either if all I did was get my ass kicked over and over again and whine about it instead of actively search for solutions.



You're salty because it hits pretty close to home and there is nothing you can do about it. Your mentality won't let you improve and show me that I'm wrong.



Yes, I would. I have the mentality for improvement and you have the mentality for running away and making excuses. You will never overcome that. Then again, you aren't going to compete in that game either, so that's the excuse you need to stay out of the harsh reality I would put upon you. Stick to star wars.



If DOA 5 sucks, itl be because people like you wanted it to turn out this way so team ninja steered it in that direction. Of course, people won't take responsibility for that. Most of you guys probably won't even play the game past a month. The ones that try to will be stuck with the pile of shit that YOU asked for.



I really don't consider you that much of a friend these days. To be blunt, I hold no respect for cowards and i'm tired of listening to weak minded individuals who do nothing but make excuses instead of working towards self improvement. I have even further distaste when you would go so far as to sink someone elses ship so you can leave in your own illusionary world. We share nothing in common.

But don't worry, I'm doing just fine in soul calibur. And because I work towards things instead of complain, I'll only keep getting better.





I can respect the part that is true. It IS a different fighter. It's bad.

But why should I be open minded about something I've put hundreds more hours into than basically anybody here? I don't have to be open minded. I already know everything based the amount of time I've spent and tournament placements I've made.

I understand the truth, fully, because I have seen everything from every angle that there is. Emporer Cow has not, but is still willing to make blind proclaimations. This is the part I cannot respect.

You're wrong in every situation, but *shrugs* that's how you are. You think everything is black and white when its not and you make up some illusionary explanation for something as simple as people simply having different tastes and that they should force themselves to play something they don't like and it must be wrong because you don't agree and call someone a coward because they dislike a game. By that logic I could call you a coward for not playing Tekken or SF even though you have given the same response about those games as I have to you about SCV.

If you don't want to consider me a friend anymore simply because I dislike a game that you like or hold a different opinion...well I'd say that's pretty weak minded and pathetic but whatever. I hold no grudge against you and despite all that I would still consider you a friend because I still consider you a good guy, you just have a bad habit of trying to pretend like you understand people and that there is some deeper reasoning for things just like I have a bad habit and tend to be an asshole...whatever.

 

[DrDogg]

Just asking, why wouldn't it matter and what would need to change for it to matter?

For the same reason you don't want to allow people to hold out of GB, counters execute in 0-frames (or 1-frame... same thing). If I'm at +5, it doesn't mean anything because my fasted attack is 9 frames and you can counter before my 9-frame jab connects. Frame advantage would only be useful if the opponent tries to attack, but more often than not, they'll just counterhold... especially if they know an attack would get beat out.

 

[Matt Ponton]

For the same reason you don't want to allow people to hold out of GB, counters execute in 0-frames (or 1-frame... same thing). If I'm at +5, it doesn't mean anything because my fasted attack is 9 frames and you can counter before my 9-frame jab connects. Frame advantage would only be useful if the opponent tries to attack, but more often than not, they'll just counterhold... especially if they know an attack would get beat out.

What you describe is interesting on paper, but never played out when in the actual match. In my experience, the hold was only used in such situations when the attack was obvious due to the punishment that would occur if the one holding was wrong (Natural Combo or Hi-counter Throw for example). Of course, that's just my experience playing numerous "high-level" Dead or Alive players in Dead or Alive 3. You also have the other type of player in said situation who stays guarding when unsure which level to hold, attempts to throw when expecting the attacker to 'wait and see' or just not knowing that the attack was not punishable on guard.

I'm not saying that you're wrong in your suggestion, but that it appears you are claiming only one option would happen in a frame advantage situation: The attacker continues with an attack and the guarding player knows which attack the attacker will use.

What's interesting about frame advantage is that (and I'm going to play paper-fighter here just as a warning) say an attack is +5 on guard as you suggested previously in that post. In such a situation, the throw would be an optimal choice because (1) should the guarding player attempt a hold, they would be normal hit thrown due to the one frame of initiation in a Defensive Hold and (2) the opponent would have to punish with an attack to avoid said throw situation as throws are instantly broken by an attack regardless of the attack's animation frames.

 

[DrDogg]

What you describe is interesting on paper, but never played out when in the actual match. In my experience, the hold was only used in such situations when the attack was obvious due to the punishment that would occur if the one holding was wrong (Natural Combo or Hi-counter Throw for example). Of course, that's just my experience playing numerous "high-level" Dead or Alive players in Dead or Alive 3. You also have the other type of player in said situation who stays guarding when unsure which level to hold, attempts to throw when expecting the attacker to 'wait and see' or just not knowing that the attack was not punishable on guard.

I'm not saying that you're wrong in your suggestion, but that it appears you are claiming only one option would happen in a frame advantage situation: The attacker continues with an attack and the guarding player knows which attack the attacker will use.

What's interesting about frame advantage is that (and I'm going to play paper-fighter here just as a warning) say an attack is +5 on guard as you suggested previously in that post. In such a situation, the throw would be an optimal choice because (1) should the guarding player attempt a hold, they would be normal hit thrown due to the one frame of initiation in a Defensive Hold and (2) the opponent would have to punish with an attack to avoid said throw situation as throws are instantly broken by an attack regardless of the attack's animation frames.

I agree with your logic, but then it's just another guessing game, and the overall problem remains.

When I have frame advantage I want to know I have a pretty much guaranteed safe option.
- If I attack and the opponent counters, I take damage.
- If I throw, the opponent can break it (or interrupt with an attack if I have less advantage).

At the very least, I want to know for certain that if I attack with a fast enough move, that's safe on block, I will not be left in a bad situation.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I agree with your logic, but then it's just another guessing game, and the overall problem remains.

When I have frame advantage I want to know I have a pretty much guaranteed safe option.
- If I attack and the opponent counters, I take damage.
- If I throw, the opponent can break it (or interrupt with an attack if I have less advantage).

At the very least, I want to know for certain that if I attack with a fast enough move, that's safe on block, I will not be left in a bad situation.

In the situation I described, your "pretty much guaranteed safe option" is to throw. In such a situation, the only option the guarding opponent has is to attack. If you have the feeling your opponent will attack then your frame advantage will meet first. Yes, no one can say with 100% certainty what another person is thinking at any given moment. Just like when I play Street Fighter as Makoto and do her "blockakusa" the opponent has only one option if they know of the 'trap' and that's to do a jump. Incase you don't know, the blockakusa is a trap where connecting with standing short pushes her forward so that she can do her karakusa right as the opponent comes out of block or hit stun. It's considered a viable setup, but it's not a "win" tactic. Of course, I'm just giving one example here from Street Fighter, but many option selects in the game don't remove all options and typically will have at least one option still viable.

I personally believe that if you were to say make that a guarantee after guarding then you're starting to push the envelope of the system. What's to stop someone from just throwing the move out there repeatedly?

Keep this in mind, and think this is really the heart of your argument: A guess in a competitive game is inherent and not having one in makes it a zero sum game where first hit wins and you are merely playing out the motions. Now, it is my belief that guessing is not what is wrong with Dead or Alive (or any Fighting Game for that matter), but what's wrong in the case of Dead or Alive's game system is the amount you are forced to just guess within a certain period of time. Most fighting games will have the 'reward' of a combo or significant life damage to compensate an player who is experienced with the game from someone who's not as a way to balance the options of 'is he going to wake-up SRK or guard or throw?' situations. The core issue I had with Dead or Alive 4 was due to this gambling game mix-up game it forces on you every second of the match. You could feel that there was no reward unless you trudged through hell and back to get that sweet launch or force-tech with unholdable. That is why I'm on the side that guessing isn't what should be 'removed' (because you can't remove it), but to tone down the amount of times the player is forced to guess in a certain time frame. Much like I have to guess about doing the blockakusa or to finish her natural combo of standing short standing forward to knock them out of the air (where they will be reset and I can 'mix-up' by dashing under into another kusa or guard a wake-up SRK), but if I guess right then I'm rewarded some life damage.