DOA5 E3 Version Q&A

[Rikuto]

Attacking out of disadvantage is a valid strategy in something like VF. It even gets it's own name. It's mostly when someone is at a disadvantage that they could be put in a throw/mid mixup, but they read the throw and want big damage off it so they go for a launch after being at -5 or so. Nevertheless, it's still attacking at disadvantage.

Is it different in DOA at the moment?

You risk less in DOA because the counter system is always there to bail you out. (which is stupid)

And, because every string can be delayed, you can never tell when someone has actually stopped attacking. (which is also stupid) You are literally forced to attack at disadvantaged in order to break any exchange unless your opponent is a complete fool and finishes all of his strings.

 

[daman077c]

Pretty much everything Cow said is ridiculous to me, so I'll just let Rikuto's answer stand. But this is a question I would find myself asking CONSTANTLY while playing DOA5 at E3. Everyone kept attacking out of disadvantage, it was so frustrating.

What made it even worse is that they would beat me out to my next attack because I was trying to play smart and use frame traps while they were "just mashing". Now to be fair, they obviously weren't just mashing (at least the better players weren't), but my point is that disadvantage didn't matter to them. The basic DOA system mechanics allow them to attack whenever they want with little to no consequences.

Attack out of disadvantage in any other competitive fighting game and you're going to pay a hefty price in almost every situation. I've said many times that when you transition from another competitive fighting game to DOA, you have to flush out everything that makes sense about how to play at high levels because DOA doesn't work that way. When I'm doing well at DOA, I feel as though I'm playing like a scrub because those are the tactics that work in a game that forces guessing at every exchange.

If you guys want DOA to have a solid competitive scene, that has to change.

That means one thing definitely needs to be fixed - tighten the amount of time you have between each link in a combo, or remove it entirely. I'll admit, there was/is WAY too much time for players to input their strings, and combine that with holding in stun, and you're either getting thrown or Hi-Counter hit.

I don't agree with taking hold-in-stun out entirely, however. Look at what the game's "Fighting Entertainment" label. I've always thought of DOA as a kung fu fight scene; frantic, back and forth, and nine times out of ten, Jackie Chan/Jet Li/Donnie Wen is going to do something while getting the crap kicked out of him that turns the tide of the fight, and often times it's a counter of some sort while his opponent is in the middle of swinging for the fences.

That said, the amount of time and situations where you CAN hold-in-stun needs to drop drastically, along with the amount of time you have for inputs. With DOA 4, all you have to do is get your opening string in, and then delay every input thereafter as your opponent holds out at every opportunity, until you either launch them or get a Hi-Counter Throw.

 

[DrDogg]

Attacking out of disadvantage is a valid strategy in something like VF. It even gets it's own name. It's mostly when someone is at a disadvantage that they could be put in a throw/mid mixup, but they read the throw and want big damage off it so they go for a launch after being at -5 or so. Nevertheless, it's still attacking at disadvantage.

Is it different in DOA at the moment?

In specific and limited situations it can be a valid strategy, but it is not something that happens frequently with positive results. In that respect it seems as though DOA takes specific situations from other fighters and turns them into a universal play style.

- Guessing is limited and an option in most fighters. In DOA it's a standard, forced by design.
- Attacking out of disadvantage is limited in most fighters and generally looked down upon at higher levels of play. In DOA it's how you play the game and succeed in many cases.
- You can only get out of a few stuns in most fighters. In DOA you can escape virtually every stun as a near universal system mechanic.
- Throw punishment is almost always the weakest punishment option in most fighters. In DOA it's the main, and usually only option.
- Frame advantage plays an important role in most fighting games. In DOA it barely exists, and even with it does, the opponent still has a good chance at attacking from disadvantage and having success.

That means one thing definitely needs to be fixed - tighten the amount of time you have between each link in a combo, or remove it entirely. I'll admit, there was/is WAY too much time for players to input their strings, and combine that with holding in stun, and you're either getting thrown or Hi-Counter hit.

I was talking with Silent Legend yesterday about the fact that it's extremely hard to get a normal hit in DOA. Bayman's P+K gives him a close sit down stun, but only on normal hit. Rikuto and I had a conversation at E3 about how you're never going to hit that move on normal hit. It's either going to be blocked, connect as a counter-hit, or connect during a stun (which is essentially counter-hit).

I don't feel that should be the case, and I really think if the system were adjusted to the point where normal hits were more common, we'd have a much better game on our hands. Although to be fair, the game is progressing well as of the E3 build.

I don't agree with taking hold-in-stun out entirely, however.

This hasn't really been discussed in awhile. We've come to a compromise that there are other very good ways to fix the problem without completely removing holds in stun. Critical Burst is a great start to fix the problem, along with the new sit down stun mechanics (although I don't think you should be able to slow escape from a sit down stun).

 

[daman077c]

I was talking with Silent Legend yesterday about the fact that it's extremely hard to get a normal hit in DOA. Bayman's P+K gives him a close sit down stun, but only on normal hit. Rikuto and I had a conversation at E3 about how you're never going to hit that move on normal hit. It's either going to be blocked, connect as a counter-hit, or connect during a stun (which is essentially counter-hit).

I don't feel that should be the case, and I really think if the system were adjusted to the point where normal hits were more common, we'd have a much better game on our hands. Although to be fair, the game is progressing well as of the E3 build.

That's something I agree with entirely.

This hasn't really been discussed in awhile. We've come to a compromise that there are other very good ways to fix the problem without completely removing holds in stun. Critical Burst is a great start to fix the problem, along with the new sit down stun mechanics (although I don't think you should be able to slow escape from a sit down stun).

I only brought up hold-in-stun because earlier in the thread there was a discussion over guaranteed damage, IIRC that was brought up, i.e removing hold-in-stun entirely to give guaranteed damage (which would make the game WAY too much like Tekken). How long is the slow escape for the sit-down stun? If it's the same crumple/knockdown animation from DOA 4 that I'm thinking of, then it's a relatively fast slow escape, and the only way to rectify that problem is to lengthen the animation frames, thus making the stun time longer.

As it is, I'm loving the direction the game is going, and am pre-ordering it tomorrow afternoon.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Pretty much everything Cow said is ridiculous to me, so I'll just let Rikuto's answer stand. But this is a question I would find myself asking CONSTANTLY while playing DOA5 at E3. Everyone kept attacking out of disadvantage, it was so frustrating.

What made it even worse is that they would beat me out to my next attack because I was trying to play smart and use frame traps while they were "just mashing". Now to be fair, they obviously weren't just mashing (at least the better players weren't), but my point is that disadvantage didn't matter to them. The basic DOA system mechanics allow them to attack whenever they want with little to no consequences.

-We have to look at the fact that everyone is getting off of the Doa4 train, where reckless behavior was promoted. There is no mindset for solid doa play, and expected that now will only get you upset. Once players start to use proper punishment, and properly utilize the tools in the game, will we see an advancement in the gameplay and play styles.

-Out prioritizing your opponents attack is dependent on the attack that you are following up with and the character you are fighting. If you are +2, using a 10 frame Jab will beat out any of your opponents fastest attacks(in particular Kasumi and Christie's 9 frame Jab). Against another 10 frame jabber, using an attack that 12i will beat out your opponents attack due more to damage than speed. This is what you would need to look out for when trying to apply frame traps. Frame advantage do not mean anything if you are not going to properly set it up.

 

[Allan Paris]

-Out prioritizing your opponents attack is dependent on the attack that you are following up with and the character you are fighting. If you are +2, using a 10 frame Jab will beat out any of your opponents fastest attacks(in particular Kasumi and Christie's 9 frame Jab). Against another 10 frame jabber, using an attack that 12i will beat out your opponents attack due more to damage than speed. This is what you would need to look out for when trying to apply frame traps. Frame advantage do not mean anything if you are not going to properly set it up.

Being at frame advantage really means nothing if I can be held at 0i, right after I do the move that gives me the advantage. If the moves or at least some of them that gave frame advantage disallowed holding immediately and forced my opponent to actually think and play defense. Then frame traps, out prioritizing, and slightly slower more damaging attacks can be applied correctly, by the offender.

I am not really sure with the E3 Build, is it still possible to hold after blocking a frame advantageous move?

 

[virtuaPAI]

Being at frame advantage really means nothing if I can be held at 0i, right after I do the move that gives me the advantage. If the moves or at least some of them that gave frame advantage disallowed holding immediately and forced my opponent to actually think and play defense. Then frame traps, out prioritizing, and slightly slower more damaging attacks can be applied correctly, by the offender.

I am not really sure with the E3 Build, is it still possible to hold after blocking a frame advantageous move?

-Your opponent will not hold unless that is the only option available to him. It is far safer to block than it is to hold and potentially lose 1/3rd of your life for a misread hold. Blocking will always be the preferred choice of defense. Remember the whole Bass frame trap mixup in Doa3.1? You the defender was able to hold out of the situation, but it was not beneficial because bass would take a whole shit load of damage if you misread. Im not saying it will be to that extreme, but there will be enough punishment to make you respect the frame advantage scenario.

 

[Skilletor]

-Your opponent will not hold unless that is the only option available to him. It is far safer to block than it is to hold and potentially lose 1/3rd of your life for a misread hold. Blocking will always be the preferred choice of defense. Remember the whole Bass frame trap mixup in Doa3.1? You the defender was able to hold out of the situation, but it was not beneficial because bass would take a whole shit load of damage if you misread. Im not saying it will be to that extreme, but there will be enough punishment to make you respect the frame advantage scenario.

In what situation would a misread hold at frame disadvantage result in 1/3 of your life? The very few normal hit launchers (attacks which are probably so slow, you wouldn't use them to pressure when you're at advantage)?

Or do you mean throws? Which, again, sigh @ them being so strong a force in this game.

 

[virtuaPAI]

In what situation would a misread hold at frame disadvantage result in 1/3 of your life? The very few normal hit launchers (attacks which are probably so slow, you wouldn't use them to pressure when you're at advantage)?

Or do you mean throws? Which, again, sigh @ them being so strong a force in this game.

-Yes throws. If you wanted to use a normal launcher, you could cause most of them are not slow, and added with environmental damage can also do good amount of damage.

-I am really not understanding some of the hate towards throws. The frequency of attacks far outweigh that of throws, even for punishment with the use of counter blow knockdown, knockback, lauchers+Juggles, wake up punishment, wall punishment. Throws simply reinforce the use of attacks.

 

[DrDogg]

-We have to look at the fact that everyone is getting off of the Doa4 train, where reckless behavior was promoted. There is no mindset for solid doa play, and expected that now will only get you upset. Once players start to use proper punishment, and properly utilize the tools in the game, will we see an advancement in the gameplay and play styles.

They were not at serious risk by attacking from disadvantage. If that continues, it doesn't matter how high the level of play goes, people will still attack from disadvantage.

They were playing DOA4, while I was using normal fighting game logic. I lost. Use that same scenario in Tekken, VF or SC and I win every single time.

-Out prioritizing your opponents attack is dependent on the attack that you are following up with and the character you are fighting. If you are +2, using a 10 frame Jab will beat out any of your opponents fastest attacks(in particular Kasumi and Christie's 9 frame Jab). Against another 10 frame jabber, using an attack that 12i will beat out your opponents attack due more to damage than speed. This is what you would need to look out for when trying to apply frame traps. Frame advantage do not mean anything if you are not going to properly set it up.

I don't need a lesson in frame data.

They weren't attacking with a quick poke in hopes of beating out my slower attack. Aside from Rikuto, they had no recollection of the fact that they were attacking from disadvantage. They attacked because that's how they play. They ignore frame data for the most part and just attack when they want to.

For instance, I was fighting as Akira against Chosen1's Hayate. I used Akira's 6P+K which is +12 on block, but has slight push back so I can't get a jab unless I'm close to a wall. So instead I'd dash in for a mix-up. He ignored my +12 and just attacked. Even if he doesn't know the frame data, he should see the guard break animation and think, "I probably shouldn't attack here" but that didn't happen.

-Your opponent will not hold unless that is the only option available to him.

Hello and welcome to Free Step Dodge. You must be new to Dead or Alive.

I am not really sure with the E3 Build, is it still possible to hold after blocking a frame advantageous move?

You can't hold until you're at zero unless you're in a stun. So when I use a guard break that leaves me at +12, you can't hold until the 13th frame. However, if the attack hits and puts you in a critical stun, you can hold immediately.

-I am really not understanding some of the hate towards throws. The frequency of attacks far outweigh that of throws, even for punishment with the use of counter blow knockdown, knockback, lauchers+Juggles, wake up punishment, wall punishment. Throws simply reinforce the use of attacks.

Unbreakable throws that execute in as few as 7 frames are a huge detriment toward solid defense. Even a 5-frame breakable throw makes it hard to play real defense. It's not as bad as defense in MK9 where you're losing if you're blocking, but it isn't much better.

 

[Berzerk!]

Pretty much everything Cow said is ridiculous to me, so I'll just let Rikuto's answer stand. But this is a question I would find myself asking CONSTANTLY while playing DOA5 at E3. Everyone kept attacking out of disadvantage, it was so frustrating.

What made it even worse is that they would beat me out to my next attack because I was trying to play smart and use frame traps while they were "just mashing". Now to be fair, they obviously weren't just mashing (at least the better players weren't), but my point is that disadvantage didn't matter to them. The basic DOA system mechanics allow them to attack whenever they want with little to no consequences.

Attack out of disadvantage in any other competitive fighting game and you're going to pay a hefty price in almost every situation. I've said many times that when you transition from another competitive fighting game to DOA, you have to flush out everything that makes sense about how to play at high levels because DOA doesn't work that way. When I'm doing well at DOA, I feel as though I'm playing like a scrub because those are the tactics that work in a game that forces guessing at every exchange.

If you guys want DOA to have a solid competitive scene, that has to change.

Yeah, its a valid strategy in VF. Look at how VF's greatest player, Chibita, plays. Always attack. He is the definition of abare.

And its tough to deal with for most cases in VF as well. So it should be - defense should be something you work at, and everyone complained it was so strong in DOA4.

Delayable strings wouldn't be the issue with mashing players because they aren't watching their timing - its more useful for smart players who are working around a blocking opponent.

If TN are smart with the sidestep mechanic and trackable moves, a sidestep against a linear delayed move will mean they're stuck between string animations and pointing the wrong way. Then they'd have to free cancel and return to neutral, possibly already at disadvantage or being hit.

You risk less in DOA because the counter system is always there to bail you out. (which is stupid)

And, because every string can be delayed, you can never tell when someone has actually stopped attacking. (which is also stupid) You are literally forced to attack at disadvantaged in order to break any exchange unless your opponent is a complete fool and finishes all of his strings.

This seems disingenuous. The counter system has changed and is no longer a bailout, its a risk. The above statement seems to refer to the way things were in "get out of jail free DOA4"

But as has been discussed in DOA5, things have changed. Counter incorrectly, not just wrong height, but too soon, and you're in recovery and will be counter-hit. Delays and cancels are also there to give attackers a viable tool to continue the correct move against a countering opponent.

 

[Allan Paris]

-Your opponent will not hold unless that is the only option available to him. It is far safer to block than it is to hold and potentially lose 1/3rd of your life for a misread hold. Blocking will always be the preferred choice of defense. Remember the whole Bass frame trap mixup in Doa3.1? You the defender was able to hold out of the situation, but it was not beneficial because bass would take a whole shit load of damage if you misread. Im not saying it will be to that extreme, but there will be enough punishment to make you respect the frame advantage scenario.

This is a valid point. However, the option is still there whether it is used or not. I have seen it used enough to not want it there. I would rather the option to hold immediately after frame advantage to be disallowed. If punishment is like what Bass had in 3.1 then ok, I can live with that.

You can't hold until you're at zero unless you're in a stun. So when I use a guard break that leaves me at +12, you can't hold until the 13th frame. However, if the attack hits and puts you in a critical stun, you can hold immediately.

Ok, that's good. If the attacks hits doesn't it cause a knockdown? I was referring to moves that are not guard breaks that give frame advantage.

 

[virtuaPAI]

They were not at serious risk by attacking from disadvantage. If that continues, it doesn't matter how high the level of play goes, people will still attack from disadvantage.

They were playing DOA4, while I was using normal fighting game logic. I lost. Use that same scenario in Tekken, VF or SC and I win every single time.

-If your opponent is beating you out of your frame advantage(as you mentioned earlier), than you are not properly applying the frame data. There is no room for you to lose out just because your opponent is playing "doa4 style". Every single time your opponent attack out of disadvantage should always result in a counter blow in your favor, no exceptions.

I don't need a lesson in frame data.

They weren't attacking with a quick poke in hopes of beating out my slower attack. Aside from Rikuto, they had no recollection of the fact that they were attacking from disadvantage. They attacked because that's how they play. They ignore frame data for the most part and just attack when they want to.

For instance, I was fighting as Akira against Chosen1's Hayate. I used Akira's 6P+K which is +12 on block, but has slight push back so I can't get a jab unless I'm close to a wall. So instead I'd dash in for a mix-up. He ignored my +12 and just attacked. Even if he doesn't know the frame data, he should see the guard break animation and think, "I probably shouldn't attack here" but that didn't happen.

-How does this show that you was properly applying the frame advantage that you had? All you are saying is "they played like it was doa4 and you lost". If you are dashing in(which takes no more than 5 frames) and attacked with any of your fastest attacks...even a launcher, you would have enough frames to beat out his attack. No amount of him "playing like Doa4" would ever stop your attack from winning.

Unbreakable throws that execute in as few as 7 frames are a huge detriment toward solid defense. Even a 5-frame breakable throw makes it hard to play real defense. It's not as bad as defense in MK9 where you're losing if you're blocking, but it isn't much better.

-The game has plenty of attacks that can be considered safe that are in the -7 frame range. Defense techniques such as buffering a throw escape while in recovery + (fuzzy) guarding will allow you to put up a solid defense.

This is a valid point. However, the option is still there whether it is used or not. I have seen it used enough to not want it there. I would rather the option to hold immediately after frame advantage to be disallowed. If punishment is like what Bass had in 3.1 then ok, I can live with that.

-Nothing will be like the Bass situation, but lets use Kokoro as an example. Her strongest throw does 65pts of damage(if it didnt change). With the High Counter throw revision it will do 97pts. That is a good chunk of your life gone for doing a hold, in comparison to the 20 or so pts you get with a successful hold. Do 3 and your opponent is dead. Its simply not worth holding when you can block.

 

[DrDogg]

Yeah, its a valid strategy in VF. Look at how VF's greatest player, Chibita, plays. Always attack. He is the definition of abare.

He's not constantly attacking out of disadvantage. He uses it strategically to gain the advantage, and even then it doesn't always work. In the situations I've experienced, there's no thought behind it. The opponent may as well have been mashing.

If TN are smart with the sidestep mechanic and trackable moves, a sidestep against a linear delayed move will mean they're stuck between string animations and pointing the wrong way. Then they'd have to free cancel and return to neutral, possibly already at disadvantage or being hit.

The new sidestep system could solve the problem, but right now the recover at the end of a sidestep and the length at which you can delay an attack don't allow this to fix the issue at hand.

This seems disingenuous. The counter system has changed and is no longer a bailout, its a risk. The above statement seems to refer to the way things were in "get out of jail free DOA4"

When I was playing at E3, counters were just as useful as they were in DOA4 when it comes to escaping situations that provide guaranteed damage in other fighting games. It was extremely frustrating.

*stuff*

I'm not going to debate this further with you if all you're going to do is defend DOA as if there's nothing wrong with the game. You were not at E3. You did not experience what I experienced. No level of theory fighter from you is going to convince me that I was not playing right and the game is fine how it is (under the confines of the discussion topic).

I do not have any of these issues with Tekken, VF, SC or any other fighting game that I play competitively. It's not like the frame data in those game is any different than the frame data in DOA5. It's the system mechanics that cause the issue, not my lack of understanding of frame data.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I'm not going to debate this further with you if all you're going to do is defend DOA as if there's nothing wrong with the game. You were not at E3. You did not experience what I experienced. No level of theory fighter from you is going to convince me that I was not playing right and the game is fine how it is (under the confines of the discussion topic).

I do not have any of these issues with Tekken, VF, SC or any other fighting game that I play competitively. It's not like the frame data in those game is any different than the frame data in DOA5. It's the system mechanics that cause the issue, not my lack of understanding of frame data.

-Where is this theory fighter that you are speaking of? Where am I saying that further improvements cannot be made? Your exact statement was:

What made it even worse is that they would beat me out to my next attack because I was trying to play smart and use frame traps while they were "just mashing"

-There is no shenanigans going on, nor were there any misinterpretation. If you know how to apply the frame data as you said you did, than what you have written above will not happen, ever. The only conclusion that could be made from this is that you are not applying it properly. Unless these attacks are just magically beating yours, with no such rhyme or reason to it.But this cannot be the case because you have also stated:

They weren't attacking with a quick poke in hopes of beating out my slower attack. Aside from Rikuto

-This shows that it is not a random encounter and you are incorrectly applying it. It simply doesn't work for one and not the other. So let me make this clear, I am not defending doa, I am putting to question the statement that you have made that do not fall into the norm of the game.

 

[Rikuto]

Being at frame advantage really means nothing if I can be held at 0i, right after I do the move that gives me the advantage. If the moves or at least some of them that gave frame advantage disallowed holding immediately and forced my opponent to actually think and play defense. Then frame traps, out prioritizing, and slightly slower more damaging attacks can be applied correctly, by the offender.

I am not really sure with the E3 Build, is it still possible to hold after blocking a frame advantageous move?

The purpose of frame advantage is to limit some options, not all options... most of the time. Guard Breaks/Guard Crushes you cannot hold out of however, so they serve that purpose well.

And I'm honestly not sure what it is, but certain attacks now... both on hit, and on guard, make the hold feel.... sticky. Like its possible for it to come out instantaneously, but it simply doesn't want to for some reason... strict timing, or something. The buffering system vomits all over the hold after a lot of strings.

 

[Allan Paris]

And I'm honestly not sure what it is, but certain attacks now... both on hit, and on guard, make the hold feel.... sticky. Like its possible for it to come out instantaneously, but it simply doesn't want to for some reason... strict timing, or something. The buffering system vomits all over the hold after a lot of strings.

If this is happening, ok, fair enough.

 

[DrDogg]

*more stuff*

Cow liked your post.

I rest my case.

 

[Chris Harris]

If they added attacks that cause a stun that can't be countered on CH that would help the situation more. And I mean attacks other than the special moves that already cause that stun.

For example I will use Hitomi,

6k - It doesn't cause the stun that can't be countered if the opponent is already stunned. However if the opponent is attacking out of disadvantage and you go to interrupt and it connects on COUNTER HIT then they can't counter out of that stun > game continues.

More standard attacks that launch on CH that are single quick attacks(and even some on NH) that launched would also help the game a lot as well. Make punishment become more than using certain throws for punishing an attack because in reality all throw punishment does is reset the situation for the defender. In other games either you get a mild punish that leaves you at slight/medium advantage or they were so far in the negative that you got a normal hit launcher for big damage.

That really goes for throwing out low attacks that are blocked. In other fighters unless the character literally has crap punishment they either get a knockdown, free launcher, or damage PLUS frame advantage from the attack. There has to be better punishment for being unsafe especially considering that there is a counter hold in the game for many other situations.

I haven't fully thought something like it through but I think it would help the situation that Dr. Dogg (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong lol) is referring to.

It can become highly frustrating when most of the game revolves around string manipulation, all strings/attacks being negative, and high delay on said strings.

 

[DrDogg]

If they added attacks that cause a stun that can't be countered on CH that would help the situation more. And I mean attacks other than the special moves that already cause that stun.

For example I will use Hitomi,

6k - It doesn't cause the stun that can't be countered if the opponent is already stunned. However if the opponent is attacking out of disadvantage and you go to interrupt and it connects on COUNTER HIT then they can't counter out of that stun > game continues.

More standard attacks that launch on CH that are single quick attacks(and even some on NH) that launched would also help the game a lot as well. Make punishment become more than using certain throws for punishing an attack because in reality all throw punishment does is reset the situation for the defender. In other games either you get a mild punish that leaves you at slight/medium advantage or they were so far in the negative that you got a normal hit launcher for big damage.

That really goes for throwing out low attacks that are blocked. In other fighters unless the character literally has crap punishment they either get a knockdown, free launcher, or damage PLUS frame advantage from the attack. There has to be better punishment for being unsafe especially considering that there is a counter hold in the game for many other situations.

I haven't fully thought something like it through but I think it would help the situation that Dr. Dogg (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong lol) is referring to.

It can become highly frustrating when most of the game revolves around string manipulation, all strings/attacks being negative, and high delay on said strings.

Pretty much all of this. Getting CH would actually mean something, and you'd have proper punishment in the game.

In a similar but somewhat unrelated line of thought, I was looking at Akira's frame data yesterday. His JF Knee is -13, which I believe is the same as it is in VF5FS (don't recall off the top of my head). In VF5FS, this makes it jab punishable. The opponent will only get small damage and frame advantage, so it's okay if the attack is blocked.

In DOA5, being at -13 means a character can pull off a 12-frame throw punishment, which is going to inflict way more damage than jab punishment. It makes the JF Knee almost useless in DOA5 because the risk outweighs the reward (normal hit launcher).

The problem is that there's no way to really dish out anything similar to jab punishment in DOA. In almost every situation, a command throw (i7 on average) is going to inflict way more damage than PP, especially if there's a wall or danger zone nearby. So you get attacks that are either safe or punishable. There are no variations in-between like you have in other fighting games.

Yes, there are attacks that are -20 in which you can get a free NH launcher... but in high-level play most people aren't going to toss out an attack that's -20 unless the opponent is stunned and can't block.