Doa5 Stage Particulars!

[virtuaPAI]

-Since we were off topic in the other thread, here is a brand new begging of another.

Back to the subject at hand, I really do not believe there will be any of the randomness that we found in Doa4 with the likes of moving danger zones. With DoaD, we seen that they took that "feature" out and went with more traditional doa style stages. If the trailer is an indication of what we are going to get, than I see no randomness dealing with the stages themselves.

I would like to know how many times can these specials be used within these stages as well as will they be adding any more special stage interactions that players can take advantage of?

 

[Rikuto]

Back to the subject at hand, I really do not believe there will be any of the randomness that we found in Doa4 with the likes of moving danger zones. With DoaD, we seen that they took that "feature" out and went with more traditional doa style stages. If the trailer is an indication of what we are going to get, than I see no randomness dealing with the stages themselves.

I would like to know how many times can these specials be used within these stages as well as will they be adding any more special stage interactions that players can take advantage of?

If we are talking about power blows, and we are operating under the assumption that they are not unblockable, I would say it would be reasonable for them to used as often as a player can land it. We don't exactly go around landing fully charged moves in DOA 4 every match, now do we?

If we are talking about other dangerzones, such as exploding walls and what have you, then I believe that is going to be purely situational. Obviously hitting an opponent into the generator is still going to hurt the second time. For other dangerzones, like the car hayate was knocked into that had the beam fall down and trigger an explosion, its more obviously a one time thing.

 

[virtuaPAI]

If we are talking about power blows, and we are operating under the assumption that they are not unblockable, I would say it would be reasonable for them to used as often as a player can land it. We don't exactly go around landing fully charged moves in DOA 4 every match, now do we?

If we are talking about other dangerzones, such as exploding walls and what have you, then I believe that is going to be purely situational. Obviously hitting an opponent into the generator is still going to hurt the second time. For other dangerzones, like the car hayate was knocked into that had the beam fall down and trigger an explosion, its more obviously a one time thing.

-What you state so far makes perfect sense except that Doa4 was a poorly designed game that provided no tools to properly utilize such mechanics(any mechanic that deviated from the triangle system truthfully). I am not worried about the power blows in themselves....they would be akin to getting hit by a dragon kick. Lets say (for the progression of this discussion) Doa5 utilizes setups that were similar to those pre-Doa4. Let me give you an example...Jann Lee's Dragon Gunner setup + wall game was a deadly combination in Doa3...lets say he was capable of doing the dragon gunner mixup into power blow~dangerzone mix in Doa5, would you think such a mechanic would break the system? LMAO(just the thought of this makes me so damn happy)...Damage wise I think it is kinda extreme, but not broken. It will weed out the weak and favor the strong.

 

[Rikuto]

I am in hopes that it can be combo'd into consistently, of course. Even "supers" of 2d fighters are largely useless if you can't combo into it.

The best possible way to balance them out would be to make them blockable with heavy disadvantage, but unholdable at full charge.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I am in hopes that it can be combo'd into consistently, of course. Even "supers" of 2d fighters are largely useless if you can't combo into it.

The best possible way to balance them out would be to make them blockable with heavy disadvantage, but unholdable at full charge.

-I concur. We think alike....must have something to do with what we see as competitive worthy contributes. They should take the stage interactivity further by giving the cast a plethora of environmental interacting moves and tactics. The 5 or so per character seems very weak for a series that base many of its gameplay on its environments. Bayman and Leon both had a special water throw, with Lisa having some maneuvers with the ropes. Giving character specific specialization with different aspects of the environment can add a tremendous amount of depth(on top of character differentiation). Lets say all the grappling characters are better equipped to take advantage of half walls by using wrestling techniques. A list of "environmental special Arts" become available, doing more damage than their typical move set.

 

[Rikuto]

Think we just know what works and what doesn't. . . years of playing this game at high level does that.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The best possible way to balance them out would be to make them blockable with heavy disadvantage, but unholdable at full charge.

I disagree. Then the primary strategy would to only guard them as once its charge initiated it can't be canceled out of charge. So the only strategy becomes to stagger escape and block. Holding would be pointless for too much risk and connecting at final charge would lead to being hit instead.

 

[virtuaPAI]

More environmental use Addendum:

-A list of "environmental special Arts" become available, doing slightly more damage along with providing more available setups/strats than what their typical move set provides. Bayman, Christie and Leon being mercenaries can maybe use obstacles (like trees/pillars) to evade and cover behind(with your back against the wall), and force the opponent to FS to get to you. Bayman, Christie and Leon could also be able to shimmy to each side of the wall to continue the cat and mouse scenario. From cover, they can use a special “reach around” catch throw that only works from that position. And/or they could be able to cover under partitions in wait of a jumping opponent, or be able to grab an opponent from the other side of the partition. These are just some ideas thrown out to give an idea of implementation.

I disagree. Then the primary strategy would to only guard them as once its charge initiated it can't be canceled out of charge. So the only strategy becomes to stagger escape and block. Holding would be pointless for too much risk and connecting at final charge would lead to being hit instead.

-I agree with Rikuto's assessment. If we were playing Doa4/DoaD, than you would be absolutely correct. However this discussion of the mechanic is lending itself towards what I stated prior:

Lets say (for the progression of this discussion) Doa5 utilizes setups that were similar to those pre-Doa4. Let me give you an example...Jann Lee's Dragon Gunner setup + wall game was a deadly combination in Doa3...lets say he was capable of doing the dragon gunner mixup into power blow~dangerzone mix in Doa5, would you think such a mechanic would break the system?

-If the setup was similar to that of the "Dragon gunner's", the defensive player will have to make a crucial definitive choice. If the defensive player SE, he has to commit to it because all of the (controlled) mashing fills up the buffer system, impeding one from doing any other action until it clears. In other words,* If the defending player do not SE(immediately) or delay SE in the alloted time*, he will get hit with the power blow. Meaning you must SE immediately. Also, If the opponent knows you are SE(Jerky stagger animation gives it away), he can opt for a no charge version of the Blow, a 1-2 level charge, or the 2nd portion of the mixup that punish SE.

-Lol, this is all speculation, however based on my knowledge of SE in Doa2-4, in a situation like a "dragon gunner mixup", it will be very difficult to escape with just SE. If the game falls into the Doa4 category, than it would be quite the opposite


*Note*-It is technically possible to SE and recover even when delayed. Or When SE meter is at max. One must be prepared for said situations. Being one of the best Strugglers, I must say that it is difficult when you have players like Rikuto and yourself(Sorwah)who will be all on top of you.

 

[Berzerk!]

I think an interesting wrinkle to add to the above would be the ability to Cancel any Charge moves or Power blows. There may be a need for an animation "cool down" of the move or for there to be a cancellable threshhold, but as it is, its too strategically flat; once you start the move, you're flagging for the opponent that they can block/sidestep/defensive hold. If you happen to start this move anticipating counter-hit, but the opponent is neutral, you're open to a big disadvantage as they currently exist. Even though you get to vary your release timing, the ability to cancel would give players much more interesting options.

 

[Rikuto]

I disagree. Then the primary strategy would to only guard them as once its charge initiated it can't be canceled out of charge. So the only strategy becomes to stagger escape and block. Holding would be pointless for too much risk and connecting at final charge would lead to being hit instead.

And that's exactly why it's a good thing.

You basically would have to initiate a deep stun to pull it off consistently, and the mechanic doesn't punish the attacker for setting it up intelligently since its unholdable. This literally is the only way to do it and make the mechanic fair.

Why?

Because if you make the move unblockable and unholdable, nobody will ever use any other kind of attack. You would have created something completely overpowered and broken, and given noobs the most powerful option in the game to spam.

If you make it frame advantage and unholdable, you get the same outcome.

If you make it unblockable and holdable, everyone will simply hold it, because you can see every chargeup in the game coming from a mile away (and because they have no choice!)

If you make it frame advantage and holdable, you will have the same situation you have in DOA 4 with chargeups like kasumi's. They will still be held 99% of the time offline, and online it creates an invalid tactic that only works in lag.

If you make it DISADVANTAGE and UNHOLDABLE, you create actual legitimate setups for it to be used safely, and as anyone who slow escapes will tell you, you absolutely must dedicate yourself to blocking afterwards. This forces the defenders options and gives the attacker a stronger mixup than the person on defense. If they try to confirm its coming, they risk SE'ing too late and getting hit by it. If they SE too soon and a chargeup was never the attackers intention, they will get thrown/OH'd.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I think it's time we stop guessing on how the current functionality and properties of the move, the stun system, and the sidestepping system will be/are implemented. It's no more than going down a paper fighter trail and can easily get lost in as it's unclear how the current system functions per the discussion topic. Besides the simple fact that we're no longer talking about the "Randomness in stage design". If you wish to discuss other hypothetical game systems such as these power attacks or charge attack feints please do so in a new topic.

@Berserk
I've always felt a cancel option on charge-up attacks would be beneficial. Feinting in general I would like to see more in the game.

 

[Berzerk!]

If you make it unblockable and holdable, everyone will simply hold it, because you can see every chargeup in the game coming from a mile away (and because they have no choice!)

The other option here as I mentioned is to make these types of moves free cancellable. Its especially good for mixup/setup if you can generate forward movement and then cancel, like in VF5 Pai has a 66++P+K is a jumping forward low punch, that can lead to a stance and a set of stance based attacks. I often use it, then use it with a cancel to get in for a throw etc.

These kind of flowing bait and switch options are available in DOA to a limited extent via its normal moves which are delayable and cancellable, but it is a little harder to show an opponent something, then do something else, because the slower animations of the charge moves are not cancellable.

Big fan of the fact that in DOA you have to commit to your moves but this adds a layer of strategy to that.

Edit: Sorwah, yeah feinting is exactly the right term and it's something that would be great in doa

 

[Rikuto]

DOA already has too much fakeout nonsense, though. The fact that 99% of strings are delayable already keeps the defender in the same mindset as someone guarding against a possible fakeout, because every move inside a string possibly IS.

Attack properties need to be more solid and rely less on paranoia.

 

[Raansu]

DOA already has too much fakeout nonsense, though. The fact that 99% of strings are delayable already keeps the defender in the same mindset as someone guarding against a possible fakeout, because every move inside a string possibly IS.

Attack properties need to be more solid and rely less on paranoia.

This.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I think it's time we stop guessing on how the current functionality and properties of the move, the stun system, and the sidestepping system will be/are implemented. It's no more than going down a paper fighter trail and can easily get lost in as it's unclear how the current system functions per the discussion topic. Besides the simple fact that we're no longer talking about the "Randomness in stage design". If you wish to discuss other hypothetical game systems such as these power attacks or charge attack feints please do so in a new topic.

-It is fun. As many know I was given the title "Doa Scientist", and It brings me great joy to break the game down. If I can't even speculate(or put the thoughts out in the universe), It saddens me....need to grasp on to some hope that is left

DOA already has too much fakeout nonsense, though. The fact that 99% of strings are delayable already keeps the defender in the same mindset as someone guarding against a possible fakeout, because every move inside a string possibly IS.

-We need fake-outs(feints) for charged blows. For strings we don't because they can be delayed( to varying degrees) and have more mixup potential than any other fighter. Not only are charged blows so obvious, but in a game like Doa, a defensive opponent do not need strict timing to defensive hold the blows. They can DH early and still win. A feint will make those who attempt to DH hold exactly when the blow is executed, or face getting Hi counter held.

Attack properties need to be more solid and rely less on paranoia.

-Totally agree. Team Ninja should reintroduce Doa2/Doa3's mid blow priority system. Doa4 was mainly based on speed alone (with wakeup kicks being the exceptions). Yes in Doa2/Doa3 high blows beat Mid blows, with mid blows beating Low blows and Low blows beating those that were high.....But the meat and potatoes was the meta game of high prioritized Mid blow usage. Doa2/Doa3 allowed a small selection of Mid blows to have priority over both High/low blows as well as other mid blows that were not in its class. The only other blows that would trade(not even outright defeat) were rising attacks(blows). This broke up the monotony of the "attack(blows) triangle system"(most used defensive/offensive system in fighting games). This not only provided a layer of depth, but it was a solid tool that was respected and warranted a well thought out defense-strat.

 

[Berzerk!]

Feinting does not equal paranoia in the case of cancelling charge moves because you still have that startup before cancelling, or execution, of the move. The other guy could just back off. It has uses in resetting situations to neutral as much as you can use it to show your hand and press the advantage when the opponent reacts incorrectly.

On topic of stages, the gamekult info further informs the "triggerability" of the danger zones, meaning spacing, environment knowledge, attack selection are important; its not going to be random. Good news so far.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Feinting does not equal paranoia in the case of cancelling charge moves because you still have that startup before cancelling, or execution, of the move. The other guy could just back off. It has uses in resetting situations to neutral as much as you can use it to show your hand and press the advantage when the opponent reacts incorrectly.

-Well, If I really do know what Rikuto was thinking(I Know the guy longer than anyone else in the community), he was referring to how this tactic will result into another one of those "Triangle-esque" trade-offs where players will be doing more guessing based tactics instead of using refined strategies that will provide solid competitive interactions. Like you, I made clear the actual use of feinting (specific to Charging attacks). Otherwise he would be correct in his assessment of the general use of feinting in the Doa series.

On topic of stages, the gamekult info further informs the "triggerability" of the danger zones, meaning spacing, environment knowledge, attack selection are important; its not going to be random. Good news so far.

-This is great news. I said earlier the "New danger zones" wouldn't be random in the way we would think random would be. I see the use of "random" as there being no set in stone result in the way "New danger zones" are interacted. In past doa games, there are set danger zones that are activated the same way all the time.From what I am getting in Doa5, depending on which danger zone you interact with first will effect the stage accordingly.

 

[Rikuto]

All I see out of a feint is yet another way to fake a threat which baits a hold out of stun.

Different delivery same outcome.

I would simply prefer a new mechanic to be given a different use then the triangle garbage.

Yes, I do realize that this particular idea does make the guessing game a bit safer for the attacker... but it still feels too damn familiar.

In the case of 3.1 it worked because in when Bass would pick you up, getting thrown was CLEARLY going to be more painful then anything else he could do to you. You had to be getting seriously fed up with his other nonsense to toss a hold out and risk that shit.

Getting high counter-thrown is never a good fucking thing as the defender, you want to avoid that shit.

Here we have power blows, which are going to be equally painful as getting high counter thrown.

So where is the fear? How can I fear one option more then the other? Both are likely round-enders, so the attacker himself can't easily condition me to fear one over the other, and as a defender I can't be smart and run damage control. It will become a straight coin flip.

We don't need that.

 

[virtuaPAI]

All I see out of a feint is yet another way to fake a threat which baits a hold out of stun.

Different delivery same outcome.

I would simply prefer a new mechanic to be given a different use then the triangle garbage.

Yes, I do realize that this particular idea does make the guessing game a bit safer for the attacker... but it still feels too damn familiar.

In the case of 3.1 it worked because in when Bass would pick you up, getting thrown was CLEARLY going to be more painful then anything else he could do to you. You had to be getting seriously fed up with his other nonsense to toss a hold out and risk that shit.

Getting high counter-thrown is never a good fucking thing as the defender, you want to avoid that shit.

Here we have power blows, which are going to be equally painful as getting high counter thrown.

So where is the fear? How can I fear one option more then the other? Both are likely round-enders, so the attacker himself can't easily condition me to fear one over the other, and as a defender I can't be smart and run damage control. It will become a straight coin flip.

We don't need that.

-LMAO, I know you very well sir!

 

[Berzerk!]

I'm saying only moves with BIG startup should be cancellable and the the "cancel" frames would be noticable, like a cool-down. This is only in reference to "power" or Charge moves. Given the counter hold system, moves like this are of limited use without it.

Elsewhere in the game, we already have delay strings and cancels so there's no need to expand further.

Another way to approach charge moves in answer to the "fear" question is to indeed make them uncounterable, but side-steppable.