Does anyone understand ranked online?

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
I understand that they're trying to make ranked matches so frustrating that they want to get in everyone's head that rank doesn't matter.

However, I do enjoy the thrill of not knowing who I'll fight next. It's like an elaborate roleplay from a dominatrix when she randomly kidnaps you from the street, blindfolds you, and treats you to who-knows-what when the blindfold comes off... it's exhilarating.

You clearly are having some really interesting matches in ranked! I tend to play it a lot because I'm still meeting people and it's all new and cool to me.

I intuitively understand parts of the ranking system. It is intentionally not a zero-sum game, so of course you wouldn't lose as many points as the person who beat you on your loss. And I believe the lower sums lost to lower ranked players as opposed to equal ranked players has to do with how DOA4's system made it so that high ranked players could be very adverse to fighting a lower ranked player; an A could beat a C 5-1 and still make a net loss, and rewarding even a 9-1 player-to-player match-up is insane but often happened.
 

Renarism

Active Member
Since this is relating to ranking points I'll post this here: Any reason why you lose to a person with the same rank as you you lose more points than if you lost to someone who is ranked lower?
I noticed this also yesterday. It's odd, and quite frankly doesn't make much sense :/
 

Stikku

Active Member
This isn't particularly on-topic, however:
Where DOA5 messed up the ranking system is starting everyone at F, much like it was done in DOA:D.
The ranking system in DOA had been kinda weird for DOA2U and DOA4, but in retrospect was a lot better than DOA5's.

I don't know how school grades work in japan, but "F" everywhere else usually means "failure." If they wanted to adopt a more logical ranking system like Tekken or Virtua Fighter, they should have changed the ranks to not be named after grades.

Of course they didn't think of that though. Maybe it's just their way of thinking of their fans, "All failures until proven otherwise."

Also, the use of "S" as a grade above "A" in japanese games doesn't even make sense. "S" is a kindergarten grade for "Satisfactory", opposed to "O" which is "Outstanding."

Maybe they don't even actually have education in Japan.
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Where DOA5 messed up the ranking system is starting everyone at F, much like it was done in DOA:D.
The ranking system in DOA had been kinda weird for DOA2U and DOA4, but in retrospect was a lot better than DOA5's.

I don't know how school grades work in japan, but F everywhere else usually means "failure." If they wanted to adopt a more logical ranking system like Tekken or Virtua Fighter, they should have changed the ranks to not be named after grades.

Of course they didn't think of that though. Maybe it's just their way of thinking of their fans, "All failures until proven otherwise."

I will say this; it is a lot less punishing than 4's. If it was like 4's point system combined with individual point selection, the result would probably be tons and tons of early match quits and people constraining their allowed rank match-ups such that finding matches would get a lot harder. So I'm glad it looks nothing like that. Could do worse than pure quantity, I guess.
 

Stikku

Active Member
I will say this; it is a lot less punishing than 4's. If it was like 4's point system combined with individual point selection, the result would probably be tons and tons of early match quits and people constraining their allowed rank match-ups such that finding matches would get a lot harder. So I'm glad it looks nothing like that. Could do worse than pure quantity, I guess.
There were good things and bad things about 4's system, which I assume must be discussed considering 5 didn't do better.
Getting 1000 points for beating a higher-ranked opponent? Cool
Losing 1000 points against a lower-ranked opponent? not cool.

The online ranked system was obviously built around some kind of weird "point-economy" where everyone started off at C with a certain amount of points, and could either gain points all the way up to SS, or lose points all the way down to F-. It was very give-and-take, and it's too bad the Tournament mode didn't allow for buying-in to a jackpot pool for the winner.

What I would have done for DOA5 is start everyone at the lowest rank (like all other fighters), but have the ranks not be named after grades. Then, when you win a ranked-match, you'd get a "minimum-win" point jackpot {let's say, 100 points minimum}, plus "technical-points" for how much life you had left in the rounds you won / how much time was left / how well you performed holds / how well you took advantage of counter and hi-counter hit status / Maximum amount of damage done in a combo / etc. Which would amount to at least a couple hundred points, and at most one-thousand points. Both players would receive "technical-points", but obviously the winner of the match would receive more, even if only simply based on "how much life you had left," and only the Winner would receive the "minimum-win" point jackpot.

The "minimum-win" point jackpot would be based on the rank of your opponent (either being the same rank, or lower), which would dynamically increase against an opponent of higher rank, depending on how far they were into their rank.

100pts = same rank or lower
101-200pts = 1 rank higher
201-300pts = 2 ranks higher
301-400pts = 3 ranks higher
usw etc.

Basically, no one truly "loses" points for losing, but rather just miss out on the opportunity of getting "even more" for winning.

And that would be the very least that DOA5's rank system could have benefit from, as well as true online ranked lobbies. I think VF and Tekken have more rewards for rank ups and stuff than just simple points, like costume accessories or something, but DOA5 doesn't even have costume editing so whatever ya know. No skin off anyone's knee besides Team Ninja's.

Edit:
After reading another post in another thread about ranks not being a true representation of skill, there should also be a "relative skill rank" on top of the universal-points rank. A rank that dynamically represents the average "technical-points" of your last 20 or so games. For example, first time playing the game online would obviously have you sitting at 0 points at the lowest rank, but say you're very familiar with the game and play extremely well, netting you a high ranking in the technical-points category. You'd still have a global "low rank", but your skill-rank would immediately be bumped up to (for example) "A+" or "S" so other players know just how solid your game is. Honestly, that's what the Grade system should be used for.
 

ILYA✰

Active Member
i like the system as is.. only problem is that i dont really know that are the penalties of losing high enough..
how much do you lose when on a losing streak?
i beat some guy like 10 times in ranked (he had better rank than me) and he didnt go any lower in rank.
so i guess u dont lose so many points when u are defeated?

the other side, winning and rewerds is kind of balanced in my mind. wheb i kick noobies asses. iget minor points that cumulate when in a winning streak. and when i beat people higher than me i get gold and diamonds ^_−☆
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
There were good things and bad things about 4's system, which I assume must be discussed considering 5 didn't do better.
Getting 1000 points for beating a higher-ranked opponent? Cool
Losing 1000 points against a lower-ranked opponent? not cool.

Yeah. I only brought up 4 because I can see much of 5's design as a reaction to 4's flaws, and it does not have those admitted flaws. The massive losses to major players didn't reflect the reality of the system, or that an inferior player could squeak out a win against a superior one and if you tossed a train of them at a veteran player it would usually result in a net loss.

After reading another post in another thread about ranks not being a true representation of skill, there should also be a "relative skill rank" on top of the universal-points rank. A rank that dynamically represents the average "technical-points" of your last 20 or so games. For example, first time playing the game online would obviously have you sitting at 0 points at the lowest rank, but say you're very familiar with the game and play extremely well, netting you a high ranking in the technical-points category. You'd still have a global "low rank", but your skill-rank would immediately be bumped up to (for example) "A+" or "S" so other players know just how solid your game is. Honestly, that's what the Grade system should be used for.

It would be interesting to see. The only system I can think of that immediately graded a player was SF: TS, and I have no idea how useful that system was. Notably, P4A had dueling systems; one was a flat out number with experience levels with a general trend towards an effectively no loss increase, and the grade system was part ratio and part experience. DOA5's own system actually seems to be most like the former P4A system, despite the grades.

I do think your theoretical grade system actually would have something of a prayer in random matches that make up ranked, but you really would have to lose any ability to cherry pick based off of rank or else you could quickly skew the numbers to get an inflated grade.
 

Stikku

Active Member
Well, keeping a "previous 20 games" average that represents the Skill grade would allow players to mark where they stand, as well as proactively allow their rank to get better or worse, being unaffected by the "total wins/losses" percentage. I was pretty rubbish when I first started playing DOA4, but got much much better over the years. I had accumulated quite a high amount of "total losses" in my early time with the game, giving me a very poor "average win rate" that was almost permanently in contrast to my actual Online grade, cause no matter how much I won, the losses never disappeared.
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Well, keeping a "previous 20 games" average that represents the Skill grade would allow players to mark where they stand, as well as proactively allow their rank to get better or worse, being unaffected by the "total wins/losses" percentage. I was pretty rubbish when I first started playing DOA4, but got much much better over the years. I had accumulated quite a high amount of "total losses" in my early time with the game, giving me a very poor "average win rate" that was almost permanently in contrast to my actual Online grade, cause no matter how much I won, the losses never disappeared.

I do like having a cap that makes it so that you can get better playing online and not have to live with the ghosts of times past, so to speak.
 

synce

Well-Known Member
I win/lose 150 against other A+... Maybe the value increases with rank? What they should've done is increase the minimum value against ALL opponents when you level up. I'm at 40k points now and still getting 37 points after someone breaks my win streak, that's just insulting. It should be like 50 if you're F, 60 if you're E, etc.
 

Stikku

Active Member
I've created a document to further improve and explain upon my original idea for ranks. Although it's pretty much entirely off topic, I may as well just post it in this thread.
NewDOA5RankSystem.PNG
 
ALL DOA6 DOA5 DOA4 DOA3 DOA2U DOAD
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