Eliot nerf or not?

[Mesharey]

Ayane is my main in most DOA's (in ultimate was Hitomi she's the 2nd) but in the alpha demo she wasn't as good as Ayane in DOA4, in the latest videos she has new move/s, hopefully in the final build she's good, she has new moves but lost many good ones

 

[Chris Harris]

Ayane has a lot of good tools. She didn't really lose anything. . .she will just take a lot of GREAT defense and patience to be good with this time around.

 

[Rikuto]

one kick, one third lifebar.

 

[Chris Harris]

one kick, one third lifebar.

Yea that is hilarious, almost enough to make me pick up the difficult patience character x_x

So many characters I want to try out this time around

 

[Rikuto]

That's a very good sign of a healthy game.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

So many characters I want to try out this time around

Yeah, same here. It's going to take a long time for me to settle on someone.

 

[UncleKitchener]

one kick, one third lifebar.

I remember back when one grab meant losing more than half your lifebar.

It's still technically possible, even if it's one graaaaaaaaabbbbb-HNNNNNG.

 

[DrDogg]

one safe, tracking kick, one third lifebar.

Fixed!

 

[CyberEvil]

Hayabusa's 3H+K should cause a limbo stun instead of hard knockdown. It should still retain its guard break properties, though.

 

[AKNova7]

Ayane is actually pretty decent, she is just particularly hard to be good with. She has some pretty good tools and I like her a lot as well, just I never put in the time with her on any level but she will probably be a problem once Ayane players figure out how to play her.

In this era of games people want the derpy shit with their characters. In DoA 4 Helena was pretty derpy as was Gen Fu which is why many went to Gen Fu. They both did the same thing and the only way to really beat it was to flat out just guess better than they did. So far there is nothing that is that derpy in this game that I have noticed anyway but only time will tell.

@Bryan - Eliot's 2f+k is a good poke but although you can't struggle the follow up you can see it because there is only one follow up. That makes it easier to hold when you see it, not 100% of the time but it makes it easier than most.

I can't wait to see how he turns out later in the life of the game because I think he will end up either at the bottom of top tier or mid tier but that's just me though.

I don't believe she's bad per say, she's probably just mid and upper mid tier, and a little more difficult, when there's better and easier characters to play with right now. I wonder, though, because, I personally just wanted her, even if they nerfed her damage, to give her some very safe moves (single hits, not strings) that went into BT. Somewhere around -2, -3ish. If she has that, she's going to be my main character from that alone, because that way I don't go into back stance and get punished just because. She doesn't have a BT parry, and can't hold from BT, and her BT grab isn't an OH (which I don't think it should be, honestly..) so a little safety from BT turns would be nice. I don't know if she got it, but personally that was all I wanted, even if they nerfed her damage. A tiny bit of safety on her BT's would go a long way.

I don't really like both the female Ninja's being so unsafe, makes them seem just a bit too similar in their speed-type ness, one just has a teleports, the other has spins.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

I don't really like both the female Ninja's being so unsafe, makes them seem just a bit too similar in their speed-type ness, one just has a teleports, the other has spins.

I still find it kinda weird how the only teleports Ayane gets are from dodging tigers/car/etc.. and in her PB. Imagine if she has a teleport parry within her spinning and rolling and bt? That would so hot.

 

[AKNova7]

Here is some typical game design balance to help you understand why its a problem.

Insert completely true stements about game balance, that actually helped me understand the perspective a little more

This is correct. Believe it or not, I played SC for quite a long time, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Yet, while this is true, sort of, there's two problems I have with that game philosophy which bother me. I actually played one of the characters affected by the hilariously stupid implementation of nerfing fixes certain companies have attempted. You see, eventually, I want to be involved somewhat eventually in game design (Business guy, then going back for a few certificates), including for a fighting game. So, I look at your list, and while true, I think the reason why I saw/see it in a different light, is because I never planned to implement it as these developers do things.

As a fighting game balancer, I would take the opinion that no matter what you do, someone is going to dislike what you do. So, I would try to balance the game accordingly, because, let's be completely honest, if a fighting game balancer's job is to balance the game, they can't be concerned with doing what the fanbase wants. Because there are always those people in the fanbase that have a severe lack of knowledge that are heard far more than necessary, or outright people that don't actually want the game to balanced at all because they like winning more than they like the game.

In my opinion, a fan saying Character A is too weak and Character B is too stong or vice versa can be said simply because the bad player you mentioned doesn't have any derpy clue at all what a match-up is, much less how to study it.

So, to sum this all up, the reason why I think you're reason is right for most current development teams, but not necessarily all the time, is simply because I think the development teams these days are taking the wrong perspective when they try to nerf things. Nerfing in my eyes is alright, as long as you keep in mind...

A) Do NOT try to nerf anything into oblivion, consider the fact that as a balancer, you might find a character overly powerful, but being too strong isn't good enough. You'd have to go into why they're too strong, don't just randomly nerf things of the character for no reason, every tool isn't the problem.

B) Try to make as few moves as possible. Figure out your plan and get it there. Don't buff one character and nerf another one, when they are in adjoining tiers, like one is "Metaknight tier" and the other one is top tier. Trying to achieve balance that way is far too risky, because you will never get it completely right.

and C) Keep community advice in perspective. You're the professional balancing employee, they're not, even though they have probably gotten to play the game more than you have after the game is released. As a person who balances games, community feedback is only so deep, because most people in most communities are biased in some way shape or form. The job description for balancing games is like the job description for being a good judge. Being impartial is in he job description, whether one does it or not.

Keep in mind though, since I'm not in the business yet, I could just be a slight bit of a control freak. While a bunch of ridiculous tools balancing each other out is exciting, this becomes quite a problem when the developer wants a game to be a certain way, instead of just a good game in general.

I still find it kinda weird how the only teleports Ayane gets are from dodging tigers/car/etc.. and in her PB. Imagine if she has a teleport parry within her spinning and rolling and bt? That would so hot.

It'd be even more cool if her teleport parry was more like she just spun and kinda had the teleport shadow thing going on, and spun through your attack. Would have been awesome. Rolling parry might be a bit too good, but yeah, spinning one would be cool too.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I'd like to post one on day 1. It would have to be HEAVILY disclaimered as I don't want anyone thinking it's anywhere near a solid, final tier list... but I'd be up for doing one with proper explanations.

You'd have to ask Sorwah though. He made it pretty clear he doesn't want any tier lists posted within the first month or so.

It's fine as long as it's not being posted as the definitive tier list and instead the topic is about discussing the placement each character and if they should be better or worse than another character matchup.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

It's fine as long as it's not being posted as the definitive tier list and instead the topic is about discussing the placement each character and if they should be better or worse than another character matchup.

That sounds like tier list discussion though, which would in time, if everyone contributes and it keeps changing, become the definitive tier list. Either way, I'd like to see it.

 

[Raansu]

That sounds like tier list discussion though, which would in time, if everyone contributes and it keeps changing, become the definitive tier list. Either way, I'd like to see it.

That's how tier lists are built. All Sorwah is saying he doesn't want a thread like "this is the tier list, enjoy." within like the first week the game is out or something.

 

[Taffertier]

I disagree with this. You can step his strings, but he can also free cancel and throw you at any point. Throws track.

Also, his low is really good. It's moderately difficult to react to, and you can't really counter the follow-up on reaction. You have to anticipate the follow-up and counter early to get it. This allows him to free cancel and throw you. You also can't slow escape fast enough to avoid the follow-up.

His strings are slow, but that actually makes it easier for him to free cancel and throw you.

I think he's top tier not counting the VF characters. Below Jann Lee and maybe a couple others, but still top tier.

If he's outclassed by a handful of characters, like 6 or 7, wouldnt it make more sense to say he's just high tier? Unless Top tier has a ton of room, i dont think 6-7th place counts as top.