Expert holds?

Master_Thespian

Active Member
legit gripes
I see where you're coming from with this and am hard pressed to disagree with the majority of it. In regards to throws, your issue isn't the damage or the ability to escape, it's that it's the only viable option is many scenarios, correct? I know Virtua Fighter has made throws and the fastest jabs the same speed so you can go for either option.

I ask this in the most sincere way: Knowing that they will probably always have hold from stun, how would you tweak the game to make it more competitive and not unbalance the triangle?
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
I see where you're coming from with this and am hard pressed to disagree with the majority of it. In regards to throws, your issue isn't the damage or the ability to escape, it's that it's the only viable option is many scenarios, correct? I know Virtua Fighter has made throws and the fastest jabs the same speed so you can go for either option.

I ask this in the most sincere way: Knowing that they will probably always have hold from stun, how would you tweak the game to make it more competitive and not unbalance the triangle?

Off the top of my head...

Give me throws that do no damage/minimal damage, but lead to a stun that the opponent can't hold out of. Couple this with a decent number of natural combos and moderately fast, but unsafe, normal hit launchers.

With this, you have attacks buffed with the normal hit launchers and natural combos. You have throws buffed due to the fact that they're more versatile and lead to better, more varied damage, and counters remain the same outside of the stuns that can't be countered out of (which are essentially only there so you can punish better).
 

Dr Sexual

Member
The Expert holds do not seem to be anymore damaging than what regular holds used to do in past doa games. Infact, expert holds did 100pts of damage or more in past doa games...far more than what they are currently doing.

Expert holds in past doa games? What was an example of one in doa4 because im not sure i know what you mean. The way the website makes it sound is that "expert holds" in this game are just regular counters that give you a damage bonus just for one additional input (Instead of just 4H you would do 64H).

If this was true wouldnt it skew the risk reward on using mid attacks against characters with these more damaging holds.

Something sort of like facing a Busa on the bridge and getting hit with a counter off the bridge Izuna.
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
Expert holds in past doa games? What was an example of one in doa4 because im not sure i know what you mean.

One example is Lei Fang's :6::7::h: or :6::4::h:, etc. Bayman has a few of these as well. I guess you could call them advanced holds or double direction/input holds. But now it would seem TN decided to give them an actual label.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
The overall flow of a match, the general lack of deep strategy, and the skewed risk/reward ratio.

- The offensive player is rarely in control.
- Spacing doesn't mean much because even if you make an opponent whiff, they have a 0-frame counter to take care of any whiff punishment you attempt.
- The new sidestep is nice, but if you only get canned attacks from it, that drastically limits the potential.
- Punishment still seems to be throws (primarily), since they are the fastest attacks and unbreakable for the most part. Unless you have a throw that launch (in previous games, most characters don't), you get minimal damage, which means it's not that bad to use unsafe attacks (compared to other fighters).
- When you work hard to open up the opponent, it still seems as though they can counter as soon as you put them in stun. However, there are reports of oddities in this, so we'll have to see how far those oddities goes.
- General lack of movement. Look at pretty much every other 3D fighter and there's a good reason for constant movement of some sort. DOA has no need for this, other than to position yourself better within the stage. There's no advanced movement and due to a lack of spacing, no real need for it.
- Decently fast lows that stun on normal hit. Other 3D fighters have them here and there, but overall most lows that lead to damage are either slow or need to be CH to get the damage. Soul Calibur takes this one step farther by making almost all fast lows negative on hit.

I will say again that this is just the demo, and I still believe there's plenty of time to make this game great (if it isn't already). I'm merely pointing out the flaws that still exist as of the demo, which is at least 3-4 months old (in terms of code).

-Not true
-You can't hold during a whiff punishment. The entire point of whiff punishment is to hit someone during the recovery frames. It was one of the few guaranteed techniques in DoA4 and it still works in DoA5a.
-I agree, it needs some adjustments but it's still a good tool.
-Not true, between whiff punishment, the return of frame advantage, several stuns being unholdable and several unholdable situations and punishing with crushing attacks, there is more than just throw punishment.
-It's not that hard to put someone in a stun. I still disagree with removing holds from stuns completely but I do agree with making them less frequent and having more situations where they cannot be used.
-I wouldn't call proper spacing and proper placement in the environment as lack of movement. I hardly ever sit still when playing and there's no lack of spacing either.
-Other fighters don't have a universal hold either. I do agree though that lows should be slowed down and stun less though.

This demo is already a major improvement over doa4 and most of the flaws mentioned arnt really flaws.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
-Not true
-You can't hold during a whiff punishment. The entire point of whiff punishment is to hit someone during the recovery frames. It was one of the few guaranteed techniques in DoA4 and it still works in DoA5a.
-I agree, it needs some adjustments but it's still a good tool.
-Not true, between whiff punishment, the return of frame advantage, several stuns being unholdable and several unholdable situations and punishing with crushing attacks, there is more than just throw punishment.
-It's not that hard to put someone in a stun. I still disagree with removing holds from stuns completely but I do agree with making them less frequent and having more situations where they cannot be used.
-I wouldn't call proper spacing and proper placement in the environment as lack of movement. I hardly ever sit still when playing and there's no lack of spacing either.
-Other fighters don't have a universal hold either. I do agree though that lows should be slowed down and stun less though.

This demo is already a major improvement over doa4 and most of the flaws mentioned arnt really flaws.

You yourself have stated that you're not a competitive player. You're also only on day 2 of this demo playing against a handful of people. To me, these problems are still clearly present, and my viewpoint will be similar to someone coming from another fighting game community.

- By the time you see a whiff, and execute an attack that will reach the opponent, they've recovered and can counter. It's very difficult to properly time whiff punishment in DOA, and it's not worth the risk.

- When I say punishment, I mean on block... which means when you block an unsafe attack. Frame advantage, crushing, whiff punishment, holding out of stuns, etc. have nothing to do with that.

- You may not sit still, but what's the strategic value to your movement? Other than placement within the stage, there isn't any.

- Other fighters have some form of universal hold. Tekken has low parries, 3rd Strike had parries, SC has guard impacts and just guarding, SF4 has focus attacks.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
You yourself have stated that you're not a competitive player. You're also only on day 2 of this demo playing against a handful of people. To me, these problems are still clearly present, and my viewpoint will be similar to someone coming from another fighting game community.

- By the time you see a whiff, and execute an attack that will reach the opponent, they've recovered and can counter. It's very difficult to properly time whiff punishment in DOA, and it's not worth the risk.

- When I say punishment, I mean on block... which means when you block an unsafe attack. Frame advantage, crushing, whiff punishment, holding out of stuns, etc. have nothing to do with that.

- You may not sit still, but what's the strategic value to your movement? Other than placement within the stage, there isn't any.

- Other fighters have some form of universal hold. Tekken has low parries, 3rd Strike had parries, SC has guard impacts and just guarding, SF4 has focus attacks.

Just because I have come to terms with the fact that I will never be a top player does not mean that I am suddenly stupid and incapable of understanding how DoA plays. I still plan on supporting the game, I still plan on competing in tournaments, I am still planning on saving up to go up north this year for the tournaments that Hubbs hosts (if he brings DoA5 to them, I know he's been upset with the community lately.) I'm not super competitive anymore as I have lost interest in other fighters, but I still love both DoA, and if I was still in Japan I'd still be hitting up VF5FS.

As for the rest, I don't feel like getting into this stupid little spat right now. I want DoA to be like 3.1, you want DoA to not be DoA, whatever. Also, whiff punishment is super easy, I don't see how you seem to have an issue with it. Whiff punishment is guaranteed damage, I've never been held on whiff punishment unless I fumbled with the input or there was lag that messed with my timing.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Just because I have come to terms with the fact that I will never be a top player does not mean that I am suddenly stupid and incapable of understanding how DoA plays. I still plan on supporting the game, I still plan on competing in tournaments, I am still planning on saving up to go up north this year for the tournaments that Hubbs hosts (if he brings DoA5 to them, I know he's been upset with the community lately.) I'm not super competitive anymore as I have lost interest in other fighters, but I still love both DoA, and if I was still in Japan I'd still be hitting up VF5FS.

As for the rest, I don't feel like getting into this stupid little spat right now. I want DoA to be like 3.1, you want DoA to not be DoA, whatever. Also, whiff punishment is super easy, I don't see how you seem to have an issue with it. Whiff punishment is guaranteed damage, I've never been held on whiff punishment unless I fumbled with the input or there was lag that messed with my timing.

I wasn't trying to be insulting. You made it clear you don't feel you're a competitive player anymore. Those were your words. Also, even the best, most strategic players have only had a few days with the demo, with limited VS. play. It's simple facts.

And if what I want out of DOA5 is not considered DOA, then the game is in trouble from a competitive standpoint. I don't think I've requested anything that would make the game seem like anything other than DOA.
 
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