Characters Hayate Unholdable Setups

[HoodsXx]

Since there's no topic for this as of yet, I thought I'd make a thread about it. Don't know if anybody saw Master's stream yesterday explaining how unholdables work in DoA but if not, I'll re-cap what he had said.


This information applies to Hayabusa but the formula and the way of finding unholdable setups apply the same way for everyone else. (Remember this DOES NOT apply to roll back techrolls)

(In Dojo,Tatami)
Pick Hayabusa and go ahead and set the computer to tech roll and second action to hold. After doing that do the following set up and make sure to HOLD after the combo to see the hidden data and read the explanation below.

Normal hit Hayabusa QCF+Punch, then 8P,3PPP = +26 Frames on techroll and plus the cpu holding.

When you hold during an opponents recovery to find out the hidden frame data, You must take into consideration the initial frame of the hold. Normally the example above would have been -5 if the CPU did NOT hold which would mean you would only be +25 after doing the subtraction of your initial hold but, again, the game is also taking into account the initial frame of the hold. When both you and cpu hold then you cancel out the initial frame since both of you are doing the same move to find the same information and the game takes into account the CPU’s initial frame for the hold and yours. The end result is that the +26 is the correct amount of frame advantage.

Also +26 is the amount of frames your opponent cannot move. Theoretically speaking and assuming that your opponent decides to hold after the tech roll then the hold wouldn’t actually become active until the next following frame of you actually being able to move. +26 is your +advantage but the 27th frame means you can now move, block, attack or do something and the 28th frame would be the hold becoming active.

This theory make sense currently because the move that is currently unholdable is hayabusa's QCF+Punch after the techroll to the side, which according to the games Frame data is 25Frames but we all know it doesn't become active until the 27th frame.

I just showed you that you are allowed to move, block or do something on the 27th frame but the hold WILL NOT come out until the 28th frame. I know this to be true because if you set the CPU to attack instead of hold then the game will register the fact that he attacked on the 27th frame and will show a counter hit on the screen. This also applies to Sidestepping by the way.

The Sidestep doesn't become active until the 1st frame so if your opponent were to sidestep in this situation it would be considered NORMAL hit instead of counter hit because the set up didn't allow for the sidestep to have enough time to activate.

Apply this same formula from Hayabusa to your character and you will see that this applies to everyone in the cast and it will probably be the most consistent way to test unholdable set ups.

Hope this helps for those that didn't make it or didn't understand the stream last night. Post questions if you need help and feel free to share.

-MASTER

I'm sure others have already either read, or seen the stream but this is just there to reiterate what was talked about yesterday, and for any new comers that join the Hayate Wind Clan. ;o

Anyways! So setups guys, let's talk about those now, feel free to contribute any that you find so we can develop this guy to be even more awesome, than he already is.

So here's some setups I have found so far. (BTW, these work with stun-launch as well)
CH 4K6K PPKK - 7P (19i)
CH 8P PPKK - 236K (20i)
CH 8K 8P PPKK - 9P (19i)
CH 33KK - 66P+K(Charged) (34i) / 6P+K P+K (34i)
33T - 6P+KK (37i)
4T - 236K (20i NEEDS TO BE DELAYED SLIGHTLY)

(Level 1 Stun) 33K/9K PPKK - Lightwieghts; 7P (19i) - Middleweights; 7P (19i)/4P (18i)/H+K (18i)/ [3]P (18i)
(Level 2 Stun/CH) 9KKK - 214K (32i)
Credited by Madian

So far those are the setups I've found, feel free to explore from there guys! Lab it up! ^^

 

[Shade]

236K can still be ducked on wakeup regardless. I'd say that's the case for all highs in these unholdable situations but i'm not 100% sure for all characters yet. If anyones found otherwise let me know.

 

[Matt Ponton]

No, highs are duckable on the first frame, same for any attack that crushes high on the 0 frame such as 1P or 2P.

 

[Madian]

Be warned that the game does not buffer normal standing wake ups. That means there's a good chance that someone will wake up a frame or two late if you try to use it as an unholdable set up. 33T is an untechable knockdown.

Here's what I got so far:

(Level 1 Stun) → 33K or 9K → PPKK...

• Light: 7P is unholdable
  
  
• Middle: 7P, 4P, H+K, [3]P and P+K are unholdable

(Level 2 Stun or CH) 9KKK (TR) → 214K

(Level 1 Stun) 4K6K -> PPKK -> 7P

(Level 1 Stun) 8P -> PPKK -> 236K

EDIT - Remove one for being too inconsistent

Also after a wall splat on a low fence (using 6PK or PP6PK) you can follow up with Zenei (4P+K) on a tech roller. This doesn't work 100% of the time granted.

 

[Madian]

236K can still be ducked on wakeup regardless. I'd say that's the case for all highs in these unholdable situations but i'm not 100% sure for all characters yet. If anyones found otherwise let me know.

Keep in mind that if 236K will hit then so too probably will 8K which is a launching mid. That sounds like a pretty good mix up to me.

 

[TakedaZX]

33t and 4t's situations have no reason to be respected. They don't allow instant techs and cannot be buffered therefore they cannot be compared to Ryu's 6t, 33p.

See the only reason 6t works out for Ryu is because of the nature of the set up.

1. The players will always tech in the same direction regardless of the direction pressed and it cannot be delayed. Test this yourself.

2. 33P has the absolute perfect range and speed to allow the situation to even be unholdable.

3. 33p has many mixups meaning that on guard you still have to deal with the fact that he cannot be throw punished.

4. In the case that the opponent doesn't tech, he can still play his wake up game with ninpo. In addition, most of these options will tech up the opponent and kill wake ups at these same time.

You can't compare any of Hayate's grabs because they simply don't have the same properties and in the case that they do tech... generally he's too far away to act on the situations.

33t and 4t are untechable but only gives a free hit (2p/1p/2k) but in the end it just gives him space and with correct timing they can wake up kick through those... But it's hard unless you practice it. These other grab situations rely too hard on if the opponent wakes up immediately and doesn't wake up late.

Instead of that... Let's create unholdables and anti wake up tech off of the designated down punch. This will probably help his wake up game in those situations. That's the best option for probably but it's still a guessing game of unfortunately.

 

[Madian]

I feel like Hayate doesn't gain a whole lot from abusing the unholdable bug. Not because he doesn't have viable options but because his other okizemi options are just that good. Why potentially risk losing momentum in the event the opponent doesn't tech when we have options that simultaneously give us a mix up if the opponent tech rolls and punishes them for doing wake up kicks or staying on the ground.

 

[TakedaZX]

I feel like Hayate doesn't gain a whole lot from abusing the unholdable bug. Not because he doesn't have viable options but because his other okizemi options are just that good. Why potentially risk losing momentum in the event the opponent doesn't tech when we have options that simultaneously give us a mix up if the opponent tech rolls and punishes them for doing wake up kicks or staying on the ground.

I mean both should be utilized imo but utilizing something like 7p in wake up is almost pointless. The opponent only need block and they'll be fine... then on top of that they can punish it guaranteed because of the lack of a mix up on guard.

To solely use that and only that is suicide. We gave to continue to use his other mix up tools and throws to train players to hit buttons and then we will be able to create situations with that.

Something like 4p is different situation since it has actual mixups... but isn't always available.

 

[Madian]

So far it seems level 2 stun (counterhit) is where the magic is for Hayate. I think the unholdable setups are most useful on heavies which we don't get much damage on to begin with.

The best tool here is probably (level 2) 8P → PPKK → 236K.

The set up for 33KK works on most tech rolls but not all of them so it's best to just go for a proper mix up versus force teching with 2H+K.

There are unholdable set ups for level 3 stuns but not without sacrificing significant damage.

 

[TakedaZX]

TN may have purposely done this because of Hayate's wake up game.

 

[Jin Masters]

Ive figure out a simple unholdable power blow setup on a full wall... But for the life of me I dont understand but when someone techs behind you it shortens the moves active frames by 1 throwing of the timing.

Any wall hit or non wall hit to
pp6pk to full 3p+k

But when the tech goes behind your character they can hold it. O_O

 

[TakedaZX]

Here's some wall tech for you guys. Off of a 6pk combo, obviously pp2k works and if they tech you get the non delayed 50/50 on the follow ups and the wind dash mix up and if they don't tech you must delay the follow ups except for the wind dash mixups. Now if they like to tech and hit buttons or hold here's an unholdable.

6pk, Izuna, 4p. Excluding back tech, this a forced block situation with a 50/50 on the follow ups. The downside is if they lay out, you don't get a tech up and you're BT. Use it wisely.

 

[Madian]

Ive figure out a simple unholdable power blow setup on a full wall... But for the life of me I dont understand but when someone techs behind you it shortens the moves active frames by 1 throwing of the timing.

Any wall hit or non wall hit to
pp6pk to full 3p+k

But when the tech goes behind your character they can hold it. O_O

Here's some wall tech for you guys. Off of a 6pk combo, obviously pp2k works and if they tech you get the non delayed 50/50 on the follow ups and the wind dash mix up and if they don't tech you must delay the follow ups except for the wind dash mixups. Now if they like to tech and hit buttons or hold here's an unholdable.

6pk, Izuna, 4p. Excluding back tech, this a forced block situation with a 50/50 on the follow ups. The downside is if they lay out, you don't get a tech up and you're BT. Use it wisely.

That's extremely specific but it does work. Nice find Takeda.

After PP6PK W! you have a lot of options so you don't need to sacrifice your damage. Try PP2K if your opponent isn't tech rolling the wall splat. If they are then just do the PP part to threaten.

 

[TakedaZX]

Pp6pk works but the issue is it's more prone to falling off axis. Also 6pk by itself looks cooler but that's just me.

Currently I'm working on 33kk on a wall combo. I'm looking for safe tech ups.

 

[Madian]

Pp6pk works but the issue is it's more prone to falling off axis. Also 6pk by itself looks cooler but that's just me.

Currently I'm working on 33kk on a wall combo. I'm looking for safe tech ups.

Safe tech ups are a reality.

On tall walls PP6K is a safe force tech that is really hard to avoid without tech rolling. If they tech up manually, they tech into your pressure. You can also do PP to telegraph the force tech and then let them tech roll into a mix up.

On short walls use Tenbu (214P). Same principles apply to this string though its not as good as PP2K.

I'll have more details when I finish my guide.