Hayate vs Rachel

[ItasumiJinsei]

meh. Hayate is the weakest of the ninja's by far. (He's only in charge because Kasumi is a runaway and Ayane is an outcast). I still laugh my ass off at Raidou speedslapping Hayate into a coma. Rachel would wreck him with little effort.

Like Akashocka said,



Though I would tweak that to put Jann Lee on bottom, then Hayate, then Christie (Christie can go up against Ryu and fair well enough), then Bayman. Gen Fu and Leon I'm iffy on who would be higher tier, but then Rachel, then Kasumi and Ayane (Though without ninja tricks they plummet to around Christie/Hayate level, so I'm iffy on their placement as well since this is supposed to be a "Who's strongest), Then Ryu.


A better question would be "Leon vs Rachel". The strongest man or the strongest woman? Rachel may have fiend blood, but is that a match for the Strongest Man In The World?! (I think not.)

Dude are you crazy. First off that power scale you gave is a complete joke. Rachel vs Leon??? LMAO Hayate isn't the weakest Ninja btw. Hayate and Ryu fought Ayane and Alpha so he defeated one of them which is good battle feed. After Hayate and Ayane go up against Alpha in DOA5 both were out of breath but Hayate was still on his feet vs Ayane who was on her knees. Hayate had just been freed from that machine and already a little tiered from that.

 

[David Gregg]

I think the order would go Ryu>Hayate>Kasumi>Ayane>Momiji>Rachel>everyone else

 

[FatalxInnocence]

I really don't get why people are so against the idea that there are stronger characters than the ninja. ( and I'm not Anti-Ninja, I think Kasumi's story is one of the best in any fighting game. Heck, Ryu has a solid spin off series which is well deserved! )

Y'all are blinded by fanism. The only ninja that in reality would be unbeatable is Ryu.

I think the order would go Ryu>Hayate>Kasumi>Ayane>Momiji>Rachel>everyone else

Also I hope you're joking about Hayate's placement. He lost whilst fighting with Ayane against Raidou, yet Kasumi beat him by herself in DOA1. I "might" place him third in regards to the ninja, but that's a giant MIGHT.

If NGS2 is anything to go off, Rachel would be stronger than Ayane in an actual weapon to the death fight. Taking into consideration, Rachel has as much powers ( and by this I mean powers, like projectile powers. ) as any of the Ninjas- she may be slower but she has much more strength. Speed isn't everything, and everybody needs to realize this. In an actual fight, a defence is better than an offence. Using peoples attacks to your advantage + add Rachel's strength into the equation.... I don't think there is a definite outcome.

Also Momiji? really? I think she's the most in-experienced ninja. And that's no offence towards her character, she's a priestess before anything right? a healer. She's not exactly supposed to be the strongest in regards to combat. I would honestly place her below a fair amount of the characters if we were to include the entire cast. Her win quotes even show in-experience.

 

[ItasumiJinsei]

I really don't get why people are so against the idea that there are stronger characters than the ninja. ( and I'm not Anti-Ninja, I think Kasumi's story is one of the best in any fighting game. Heck, Ryu has a solid spin off series which is well deserved! )

Y'all are blinded by fanism. The only ninja that in reality would be unbeatable is Ryu.



Also I hope you're joking about Hayate's placement. He lost whilst fighting with Ayane against Raidou, yet Kasumi beat him by herself in DOA1. I "might" place him third in regards to the ninja, but that's a giant MIGHT.

If NGS2 is anything to go off, Rachel would be stronger than Ayane in an actual weapon to the death fight. Taking into consideration, Rachel has as much powers ( and by this I mean powers, like projectile powers. ) as any of the Ninjas- she may be slower but she has much more strength. Speed isn't everything, and everybody needs to realize this. In an actual fight, a defence is better than an offence. Using peoples attacks to your advantage + add Rachel's strength into the equation.... I don't think there is a definite outcome.

Also Momiji? really? I think she's the most in-experienced ninja. And that's no offence towards her character, she's a priestess before anything right? a healer. She's not exactly supposed to be the strongest in regards to combat. I would honestly place her below a fair amount of the characters if we were to include the entire cast. Her win quotes even show in-experience.

It's not really about fanism, it's that the story of DOA and NG revolve around the Ninja it's made by team NINJA after all. They never let the Ninja lose to non Ninja, they're purposely stronger than other characters. Now you say speed isn't everything. No it's not BUT the Ninja don't just attack faster, they move faster, are more flexible, and have better reflexes. Another big thing is Rachel can't fight like them in hand to hand combat. Defense? It's the Ninja who have better defense against Rachel not the other way around. Rachel is obviously at a huge disadvantage. The only Ninja I can see her beating is Momiji.

 

[FatalxInnocence]

It's not really about fanism, it's that the story of DOA and NG revolve around the Ninja it's made by team NINJA after all. They never let the Ninja lose to non Ninja, they're purposely stronger than other characters. Now you say speed isn't everything. No it's not BUT the Ninja don't just attack faster, they move faster, are more flexible, and have better reflexes. Another big thing is Rachel can't fight like them in hand to hand combat. Defense? It's the Ninja who have better defense against Rachel not the other way around. Rachel is obviously at a huge disadvantage. The only Ninja I can see her beating is Momiji.

You're basically stating that every ninja is invincible which is a load of bull-hockey. If that was the case, no ninja would die in any game. They ( according to you ) have everything. Speed, Defence, reflexes rendering people hitting them impossible on top of that an offence. Fiends are capable of killing ninjas, and Rachel has fiend blood in her. You're just undermining her a severe amount. Rachel works best as a counter-active character. So by defence, I would mean they would attack and she would react- because that is how slow based styles work. They use the opponents offensive as their own. Twirl Rachel, twirl~

Out of curiosity though, what is the point of asking the question if you're so sure of the answer? seems a little pointless if you ask me. You're answering your own question. o_o

 

[ItasumiJinsei]

You're basically stating that every ninja is invincible which is a load of bull-hockey. If that was the case, no ninja would die in any game. They ( according to you ) have everything. Speed, Defence, reflexes rendering people hitting them impossible on top of that an offence. Fiends are capable of killing ninjas, and Rachel has fiend blood in her. You're just undermining her a severe amount. Rachel works best as a counter-active character. So by defence, I would mean they would attack and she would react- because that is how slow based styles work. They use the opponents offensive as their own. Twirl Rachel, twirl~

Out of curiosity though, what is the point of asking the question if you're so sure of the answer? seems a little pointless if you ask me. You're answering your own question. o_o

I'm not talking about Ninja from other games, I'm talking about DOA/NG Ninja. Yeah fiends can beat Ninja but 9.9/10 they don't defeat experience Ninja. Fighting a full fiend on paper is worse than fighting a part fiend like Rachel. I know Rachel would react after they attack but what could she do? She'll never touch them with slow attacks and no high level martial art skills. It could easily go Ninja attacks, Rachel defends and reacts, Ninja counters Rachel's reaction and owes her. I asked this question because me and my friend where talking about it and I wanted to see what others thought. Seems no one can give me any real reason as to why Rachel can beat any Ninja besides Momiji. Btw you said everyone blindly picks Hayate...am I the only one who can see the poll? Rachel is winning in the poll.

 

[FatalxInnocence]

I'm not talking about Ninja from other games, I'm talking about DOA/NG Ninja. Yeah fiends can beat Ninja but 9.9/10 they don't defeat experience Ninja. Fighting a full fiend on paper is worse than fighting a part fiend like Rachel. I know Rachel would react after they attack but what could she do? She'll never touch them with slow attacks and no high level martial art skills. It could easily go Ninja attacks, Rachel defends and reacts, Ninja counters Rachel's reaction and owes her. I asked this question because me and my friend where talking about it and I wanted to see what others thought. Seems no one can give me any real reason as to why Rachel can beat any Ninja besides Momiji. Btw you said everyone blindly picks Hayate...am I the only one who can see the poll? Rachel is winning in the poll.

I was referring to the posts, not the poll. Everyone posting seems to be stating Hayate. You're not exactly providing legitimate reasons as to why he would win in my eyes either. All I'm seeing is you undermining Rachel. Your judgement of her is completely off. She's stronger than an average fiend. Heck, she's a fiend hunter. She beats on fiends for a living. So she's not a "lesser fiend" and she's probably stronger than what 90% of the ninjas would face in regards to fiends.

And I also don't think you're understanding what I'm meaning by react. For instance, if somebody throws a punch at you and you counter that by pushing them aside- or in DOAs case you would counter. You can't get out of a counter attack. They're unsuspecting. If you watch actual fights you'll understand what I'm talking about. In both NG & DOA- you can't just counter a counter attack. That's not how it works.

All we have to go off is what we've seen- and Rachel has pulled through more things than what we've seen Hayate pull through. I think that's reason enough to believe Rachel could beat Hayate. All we've seen Hayate fight is the standard humans with guns and a helicopter. We've seen Rachel fight greater fiends, amongst all the stuff Hayate has fought. You say Hayate is an experienced Ninja, Rachel is an experienced fiend hunter.

It is literally hard to make a full fledged judgement in this situation considering the base we have to go off. That base- suggests Rachel would win. She's fought and been through more.

 

[David Gregg]

It is literally hard to make a full fledged judgement in this situation considering the base we have to go off. That base- suggests Rachel would win. She's fought and been through more.

I agree it's impossible to make decisions especially since Rachel hasn't even been placed in DOA's story yet but I think you're underselling Hayate.

Last time I checked Rachel couldn't perform Sky Torn Blast.

 

[Argentus]

I agree it's impossible to make decisions especially since Rachel hasn't even been placed in DOA's story yet but I think you're underselling Hayate.

Last time I checked Rachel couldn't perform Sky Torn Blast.

Well to be fair, here's what we know about Hayate.

1) His practiced Torn Sky Blast was inferior to Raidou's version, which was just Raidou mimicking Hayate's, ON THE SPOT.
2) He got the crap beat out of him, pimpslapped into a brokeback coma.
3) He got brainwashed into Ein.
4) He was handed the reigns of the ninja clan, due to being the only eligible ninja (Kasumi being a runaway, Ayane being well, an outcast.)
5) He got captured AGAIN.
6) He has utterly failed to catch Kasumi (Whether this is due to kasumi being too good to catch, or Hayate purposefully not sending enough ninjas at a time, whatever)

Just...from everything shown in the story, Hayate comes across as the weakest of the 4 ninjas.

 

[FatalxInnocence]

I agree it's impossible to make decisions especially since Rachel hasn't even been placed in DOA's story yet but I think you're underselling Hayate.

Last time I checked Rachel couldn't perform Sky Torn Blast.

Oh, I'm not underselling him. I said I believe he is probably 3rd in line Ninja wise. Ryu > Kasumi > Hayate > Ayane > Momiji. So I'm not really completely writing him off. I would place Rachel after Kasumi however. But that's just me.

In the end, I don't think we'll ever have clarity in regards to this topic ;P I doubt it'll ever be addressed in DOA since it really isn't important. I'm just comparing Rachel's success and what we've seen her do in comparison to Hayate. I believe what we've seen her do proves she is the stronger of the two.

 

[ItasumiJinsei]

I was referring to the posts, not the poll. Everyone posting seems to be stating Hayate. You're not exactly providing legitimate reasons as to why he would win in my eyes either. All I'm seeing is you undermining Rachel. Your judgement of her is completely off. She's stronger than an average fiend. Heck, she's a fiend hunter. She beats on fiends for a living. So she's not a "lesser fiend" and she's probably stronger than what 90% of the ninjas would face in regards to fiends.

And I also don't think you're understanding what I'm meaning by react. For instance, if somebody throws a punch at you and you counter that by pushing them aside- or in DOAs case you would counter. You can't get out of a counter attack. They're unsuspecting. If you watch actual fights you'll understand what I'm talking about. In both NG & DOA- you can't just counter a counter attack. That's not how it works.

All we have to go off is what we've seen- and Rachel has pulled through more things than what we've seen Hayate pull through. I think that's reason enough to believe Rachel could beat Hayate. All we've seen Hayate fight is the standard humans with guns and a helicopter. We've seen Rachel fight greater fiends, amongst all the stuff Hayate has fought. You say Hayate is an experienced Ninja, Rachel is an experienced fiend hunter.

It is literally hard to make a full fledged judgement in this situation considering the base we have to go off. That base- suggests Rachel would win. She's fought and been through more.

I know what Rachel can do I'm not underestimating her. I was saying in terms of physical abilities a full fiend is stronger than Rachel not that Rachel is overall weaker. I have given reasons why Hayate can beat Rachel by breaking down all the advantages he has over her. Now on the reacting thing, I know what you mean but yet again Hayate's fighting skills are far superior to Rachel's (I have seen plenty of fights in real life as well I've been doing lots of research on martial arts). As far what Hayate has done vs what Rachel has done, all Rachel has done is kill lots of lesser fiends and one greater fiend Marbus. Hayate along side Ryu defeated Ayane and a Alpha clone. Other opponents Hayate had to face seem to be stronger than anyone Rachel has fought. Raidou, Genra (two master rank Ninja powered up by DOATEC) and Alpha in DOA5. Ryu is the #1 Ninja and he doesn't look tiered after defeating greater fiends in NGS2. This leads me to believe any master rank Ninja can defeat greater fiends. This is also backed up by Ayane (who has a decent gap in skill compared to Ryu) defeating Obaba with no serious trouble while Obaba had a power up from the Hayabusa clan's eye of the dragon. On that note I'd like to argue Hayate is stronger than Ayane because of the match I mentioned b4 and more importantly in DOA5 after Hayate who was already a little winded from coming out of that machine fought Alpha with Ayane. After the fight is finished we see Hayate and Ayane exhausted but Hayate is still on his feet vs Ayane who was on the ground holding herself up on one knee. Between training in Mugen Tenshin Ninjutsu most his life and being put up against foes stronger than Marbus or other greater fiends I'd say it's Hayate who is more experienced than Rachel. To rap this up lets not forget Hayate's Torn Sky Blast technique. It's a better technique than anything Rachel has.

 

[ItasumiJinsei]

Well to be fair, here's what we know about Hayate.

1) His practiced Torn Sky Blast was inferior to Raidou's version, which was just Raidou mimicking Hayate's, ON THE SPOT.
2) He got the crap beat out of him, pimpslapped into a brokeback coma.
3) He got brainwashed into Ein.
4) He was handed the reigns of the ninja clan, due to being the only eligible ninja (Kasumi being a runaway, Ayane being well, an outcast.)
5) He got captured AGAIN.
6) He has utterly failed to catch Kasumi (Whether this is due to kasumi being too good to catch, or Hayate purposefully not sending enough ninjas at a time, whatever)

Just...from everything shown in the story, Hayate comes across as the weakest of the 4 ninjas.

Wrong. Hayate and Raidou's Torn Sky Blast were on pair, the reason Hayate was put in a coma is because the explosion caused by their ninpo colliding knocked him into a tree. You definitely shouldn't put Hayate down for losing to Raidou, Raidou was a much older experienced fighter and Ayane got her ass handed to her by him twice. Hayate was always #1 in line for head of the clan because he's the first born child. Hayate, Kasumi, and Ayane all have been put in bad spots. Ayane was brainwashed and fought against Hayate and Ryu with Alpha. Hayate getting captured in DOA5 isn't a big deal because what could he have done to avoid that sudden trap? Ayane was gonna fight Rig but Hayate told her to stand back. If Ayane had fought Rig she would have been captured instead of Hayate. Hayate letting Kasumi get away? Kasumi is stronger than him and he really doesn't want to kill his sister, they love each other a lot. Before he lost his memory he was muttering Kasumi's name. Ryu>Kasumi>Hayate>Ayane

 

[Juihau]

Really, I find that Hayate's probably at the bottom of the ninja chain. At the very least, he's certainly weaker than Kasumi. Considering that, of the (admittedly very few) enemies they've both fought, Hayate has either been defeated (Raidou and Rig), or had help (Alpha-152), all of which Kasumi has defeated at some point on her own. Not to mention him needing Ayane's help against a clone that may or may not have been weaker than the real Kasumi. Though I'm not all that familiar with NG, so I don't really know much about Rachel. Just wanted to put this out there, because people seem to be vastly overestimating Hayate's canonical capabilities, putting him directly behind Ryu. Also,

4) He was handed the reigns of the ninja clan, due to being the only eligible ninja (Kasumi being a runaway, Ayane being well, an outcast.)

This is most certainly not true. Hayate became the leader because he was the eldest son, and the only reason Kasumi was set to become leader in the first place is because he was captured. It wouldn't matter whether or not Kasumi was considered a runaway, Hayate was first in line. Also, I believe it's implied that he's not actually trying to capture her, as doing so would result in her execution, just sending insufficient numbers so he doesn't get called on it.

 

[CFW]

It really goes Rachel > Rachel's left and right titty > Ryu > Rachel's ponytail > a hair pin > Ayane > Momiji > Rachel's butt slap throw > a paper bag > Hayate

I will fight u if u disagree.

 

[BajiPigua]

I can't say much about Rachel since I haven't played any NG games (since NES days), but I feel that Hayate is being undersold here a bit. The general ninja order for the 4 main ninjas to me are: Ryu > Kasumi > Hayate > Ayane, going by DOAD and DOA5 stories. Thoughts on why below.
(I'm also aware the following text shows I put way too much thought into this)

Ryu is the ultimate ninja. Obviously the top here.

Kasumi:
- Yes, she defeated Raidou, but that seemed to be more guts and heroic determination than a skill gap. Raidou easily defeated Ayane twice, even one-shotting her the second time. But Ayane still forces Kasumi to fight seriously, even winning in the third tournament. The still amnesiac Hayate/Ein managed to catch Kasumi off-guard and KO her - Kasumi obviously wasn't going all out, but getting KO'd like that still suggests a small skill gap, not a large one. The fact that Raidou won in short cutscenes may be more for story pacing and buildup. Still, Kasumi's win over Raidou shows off her raw potential.

- Kasumi's raw speed is amazing even for a ninja. In the Hayate and Ayane vs. Kasumi vid, we see Hayate and Ayane go into superspeed mode at the start. We then see the two in slow motion, and Kasumi's superspeed is so fast it looks like superspeed while the others are seen in slo-mo.
Still, the moment Hayate crossed blades with her, she's put on the defensive and apparently couldn't find the footing to go superspeed again. Her blade was shaking more in that deadlock, showing that a Hayate vs Kasumi fight is a power vs speed battle. (That was the fake Kasumi, but she did beat Alpha-152 earlier, and I'm assuming the clone is equal to the real Kasumi)


Hayate:
- On the oil rig, he fought the false Kasumi unarmed and was implied to be winning before the choppers interrupted. This Kasumi beat Alpha-152, so it's hardly a weak knock-off. In the 2v1 sword fight, he didn't get hit once (unlike Ayane) and was the one to force Kasumi on the defensive as well as getting in the first and final cuts on her. If Ayane wasn't there, it wouldn't be so easy obviously, but Hayate seems to like using his sword any chance he gets in cutscenes, unlike Kasumi. I don't think it'd be an easy win for Kasumi in a real duel.

- Aside from Torn Sky Blast, Hayate can also quickcast (in midair no less) a ninpo that can one-shot a helicopter gunship which he also used against false Kasumi.

- Any time he loses his cool, he does poorly, seen against Raidou, against Ryu in DOA5 (but not DOAD) and even Rig. It also indirectly led to his two captures; the first time he was in a coma from the ninpo duel. The second time had less to do with the fight w/ Rig, and more because he was in a lab that could reactivate Epsilon.


Ayane:
- I think she's the weakest, at least in close up combat, but as a branch member of Mugen Tenshin I'm not sure that's supposed to be her forte anyways.

- None of the cutscenes show her using fast ninpo like Ryu or Hayate. On the other hand, she did use the large scale ninpo that took out a good portion of one of the DOATEC towers. I'm pretty sure her role is support (demolitions/tracking/etc) rather than up-front fighting.

- She lost against Kasumi every time except once. In the 2-on-1 fight against false Kasumi, she didn't land a single blow until Hayate did, and Ayane was hit with a full combo before that. Even in DOAD, she was surprised that Hitomi held her own with her karate. Ayane was also the most exhausted in the fight against the final Alpha clone.


Again, I honestly don't know if Rachel would win or not since I haven't played NG, but Hayate's hardly a pushover even by ninja standards.

 

[Xernuht]

I favor Hayate. While he's nowhere near Ryu's level, he has at least proved himself to be quite dangerous on multiple accounts (defeated the Kasumi clone (assisted by Ayane, but only in the cutscene. Hayate is on the winning side of the gameplay portion.), leads the Mugen Tenshin in destroying the DOATEC tower, managed to hold his own against Ryu and Genra).

Rachel's accomplishments in Ninja Gaiden are fighting Gamov 1-on-1 (did not truly defeat), Ishtaros and Nicchae 2-on-1 (lost), and a weakened Marbus (defeated, but put down for good by Ryu).

Admittedly, it's difficult to say without a canonical fight between the 2 or the presence of Hayate in NG canon, but Donovan went after Hayate, not Rachel.

 

[Number 13]

Hayate getting beat up by a high level ninja like Raidou is nothing to be ashamed about lol

Even Kasumi couldn't beat Raidou completely without the help of Hayabusa.

In any case in this specific matchup where we have no record of them fighting each other I would say Hayate wins in the end after a prolonged fight. Brute power can only take you so far if your inferior to the opponent in the other combat catagories. Only scenario I can see Rachel beating Hayate would be if she got in his head and got a lucky vital blow in since he tends to be prone to get emotionally distraught according to Hayabusa.

 

[Pictured Mind]

Rachel will win because Rachel is amazing.

This is the most in-depth explanation you're gonna get.