DR2K
Well-Known Member
Does she have anything that would make her "technical"?
Helena's needed improvements
- Thread starter TRI Mike
- Start date
Does she have anything that would make her "technical"?
A ridiculously impractical moveset, apparently.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
No more technical than any other stance-based character. Let me give you an example.
Her only sit-down stun that guarantees more than a 3P is the last hit of 44PPP. The string has one alternating path which is 44PP2PPK, which only leads to a stun. Now, if you're familiar with 44PPP you'll know that you have never hit the entire string on a competent player in your entire life. Yet, the only way to get the good sit down stun is if you do just that. If you stun first and then try 44PPP, the last hit crosses the stun threshold and knocks down, so you get no sit down stun. I have one setup for this and even then the opponent has to be brain dead to get hit by it.
This is a good example of how Helena uses the new system tools. She has them,. but good luck using them in competitive play. 66P, unsafe. 4PPP, unsafe. PPP, unsafe. 9PP, unsafe. And she only has ONE safe way into BKO if the opponent blocks. And even in that one situation, any character with an 11-frame mid wins. She can't beat them out to an attack.
Oh, and her damage got nerfed a bit. It was a very small nerf, but he damage was low to begin with. If you don't connect a hi counter BKO throw, you aren't doing any real damage. Meanwhile, Hayabusa is picked on the character select screen and you lose half a bar. He can get into Ninpo safely from multiple attacks and has WAY better crushes, guard breaks and sit down stuns than Helena.
She's a joke now.
Einzelkind
Active Member
Man, that really hurts. Dropping her makes me feel like a tier whore, but apparently she plays like a crippled DOA4 character and that just isn't fun with all the new mechanics the game has to offer. I guess, we have to pray that Team Ninja realizes that this is not how a technical character is supposed to work. But seriously, if the rest of the game is balanced well, I'd rather accept Helena's fate. Can't think of a recent patch that didn't make everything worse.
Does she have a better juggle from her bokuho throw or is 4ppk,9k still the best one?
Does she have a better juggle from her bokuho throw or is 4ppk,9k still the best one?
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
Yeah I'm officially dropping her then. As I said, this breaks my hearts and actually kills a good portion of the hype I had for the game but fortunately I'm interested in many others who look very cool. And one of my two VF5FS mains is in the game (Pai). So there's that.
I will still mess around with her and update the combo thread because I'm interested in knowing how she develops, if at all. I think a patch is imminent because unlike Wong, Hele has a huge fanbase that simply doesn't trust us yet because they haven't used her. But once they realize this they'll make more noise than us.
Thanks for the 8+ years of accompanying me in my fighting game adventures Hele. I'll never forget you.
I will still mess around with her and update the combo thread because I'm interested in knowing how she develops, if at all. I think a patch is imminent because unlike Wong, Hele has a huge fanbase that simply doesn't trust us yet because they haven't used her. But once they realize this they'll make more noise than us.
Thanks for the 8+ years of accompanying me in my fighting game adventures Hele. I'll never forget you.
Paradise
Member
Im kind of tired of struggling with low tier characters (as I end up playing one every fighting game I own) so I'm not entirely sure if I can stay on team Helena. I love the character, I love the fighting style, but I'm sick of the uphill battle. Real shame too. I've been looking forward to Helena in general since I found out that there was going to be another installment of DOA.
Now I shall rage.
Now I shall rage.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
So what were the buffs they gave her that they thought would compensate for all this?
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
You'd have to ask Shimbori.
She got two buffs, but neither of them are significant (a little damage guaranteed off her frame advantage throws, but not a launcher or anything significant), and a few new attacks that have minimal use and are mostly mid punches.
Oh and her 1PP is buffed... so you get better stun on CH. Yay.
I had some better combos with her, but then the damage nerf made 4PPK.9K better.
The vibe I get from what Dr. Dogg is saying is that this game is really unbalanced. Unlike in other fighters where low tier characters can still win in a competitive setting, there seems to be a HUGE level of disparity between the Sarahs, Akiras, and Busas and the Brads, Lisas, and Helenas. Either he's being overly pessimistic, or 3.1 is still the gold standard for competitive DOA after all, unless I'm missing something.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Aside from about 3-4 characters, the game is fairly balanced... especially if you remove the VF tier at the top. Hayabusa is better than Hitomi, but thanks to the stun game, Hitomi can still beat Haybusa. Helena can still win, you just have to really play the stun game. All she has is stun into a BKO throw mix-up. But if you hit that hi counter BKO throw, it's going to hurt.
That's actually a little better. Sorry if this has been answered before, but does she have any of her 3.1 tools in 5 (
or , , being able to freestep out of BKO, tic throws, etc.)? Does leave her with frame advantage? You used to be able to guarantee stuff off of it, but not in 4 (I think). Does still guard break and give her advantage, or has that been made one of her unsafe moves?
Great. A lot of this discussion seems to be based on what she lost from 4 which I didn't play, so I had no frame of reference haha. This was all I needed to know. Thanks!
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Something guaranteed off of her grabs that leave them back facing? Maybe he isn't totally retarded after all.
How does her side step work with her BKO sweep? Does it link somehow? Cause in the video it kind of looked that way.
The game seems pretty solid but some characters have slipped through the cracks, if they hadn't added numerous unholdable situations then Helena would still be considered good but seeing as she has no choice but to stun the crap outta you and hope you don't hold correctly she is considered worse by comparison to characters who can ignore the stun game pretty easily.
VF characters have just transitioned too well, they didn't want to change them so they would still appeal to VF players so they gave them slightly less damage which hasn't hurt them very much at all.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
She gets a stun off her throws. Just like she gets off of everything else. It's something, but not significant. If she got a launch, then we could talk.
Her SS K is the BKO sweep.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
I'm just glad she gets something guaranteed.
A sidestepping low that gives a nice stun? Hmm that is pretty nice.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
It's about the same as all of the other SS attacks.
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
It would be hot if she could SS BKO Sweep into BKO. Now, that would be awesome.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Are a lot of SS attacks lows? Also can she transition into BKO from it? I know she could remain in BKO after it in DOA4.