Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Mind going into more detail about how I would use the frame data to learn what can be whiff punished on reaction and what cant? I feel like I'm one of those trigger happy whiff punishers lol.
Helping Players To Get Better
- Thread starter Chris Harris
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Mind going into more detail about how I would use the frame data to learn what can be whiff punished on reaction and what cant? I feel like I'm one of those trigger happy whiff punishers lol.
I'm doing it wrong, then.
Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
The last number shows the recovery frames. So a move that has ridiculous recovery like Helena's 9k that you can see whiffing is good to whiff punish it.
However it also depends on the character you are using, anticipation, and the attack you are trying to use to whiff punish with. For me whiff punishing is just treating it as common knowledge. . .if you see a move whiffing on the screen (or sometimes someone whiffing a string) know what move(s) you want to whiff punish with and go for it.
Drake Aldan
Well-Known Member
Well, this would be dependent on a number of factors- your own personal reaction time, ease of recognizing the move, what whiff punisher you are utilizing, etc... At first we would pick fairly arbitrary/unscientific numbers and try to whittle it down through reasoning and experience.
Let's take Ein vs. Leon (who conveniently has his frame data up on the wiki!) and assume that we're using Ein's i12 46P as an on-reaction whiff punisher.
(For anyone who may be reading this, I would implore you to put your character's frame data into the wiki- even if it's a little bit at a time and even if it's just strike data. You can look at the existing data for templates, or I can give you my own empty templates and explain how to set things up.
Yes, the frame data is in the game, but sometimes it is good to have it all in front of you, especially when conducting thorough analyses.)
We'll do some rough testing by recording the opponent whiffing a move and then blocking immediately after. (I say rough because you have to manually slow yourself down when whiff punishing in these tests, or risk picking up the rhythm of the recording and whiff punishing on prediction instead of reaction. A possible idea would be to use the "Network Speed" setting to simulate the loss of speed conferred by real-world pressure/stress.)
Mind you that your results may differ from mine because of innate differences listed above; personal reaction time, personal input speed, etc., etc.
Let's say Leon whiffs his own 46P (Shoulder Tackle). Spacing move, guard break with + on block, seems reasonable to think that this could be whiffed in a match. (More importantly, there are no followups to trip you up.)
Leon's 46P has 24 frames of recovery (not counting 5 active frames). Personally, I'm finding if I'm being realistic, I can just barely eke out a punish. The 24 frames of recovery is twice the amount of Ein's i12 46P (more than enough time, right?), but I also have to recognize the move, recognize it whiffed, and input 46P (and 46P is an input that takes a minimum of at least 2-3 frames, I don't know the specifics- and that's if your hands happen to be fast that day). All of this costs valuable frames, so I'm finding I need to be on point to punish this with 100% consistency.
So, we have a number to work with, 24 frames, which gives us a good (but not great) chance of punishing a whiff.
Let's look at other moves.
Let's look at Leon's 236P. This has 30 frames of recovery. As expected, whiff punishing this is fairly easy. It still requires a sharp response, but you can practically see Leon stuck recovering.
I would say at this point that a good whiff punish would be in the range of 24-30 frames or more. Let's test it going down instead of up.
Let's look at Leon's 6P. (You may or may not find this situation happening in a real match but we're looking at it for the sake of demonstration.) 6P has 22 recovery frames. I find it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to whiff punish this without preempting it first. i.e. if Leon had a habit of free canceling 6P, I would probably attempt to run in and throw or use the advantage some other way instead of attempting a whiff punish.
So, as a rough estimate, recovery from 24+ frames is eligible for 46P whiff punishment, with the punish becoming harder as the number becomes smaller. You would adjust this number based on your own speed and experience (and further testing).
Thinking back, rising mid kick recovers in 18 frames, and I do find it difficult to punish the whiff consistently without timing it correctly (i.e. preempting it).
With this methodology, just like with block punish lists, you can put together a list of commonly whiffed moves that you should definitely try to whiff punish every time you notice (and which whiff punisher to use in each situation if you wanted to go that far).
As an aside, the best moves for baits (in my opinion) tend to be moves with relatively slow activation times but fast recovery times, so that your opponent can react to the animation, but be unable to reach you in time (because you have already recovered). I haven't spent the time looking for such a move, but I'm sure it probably exists.
I suppose an alternative would be using a move with a borderline unsafe recovery, but a very fast activation time, so that by the time the opponent reacts they are too late. Those are probably plentiful.
To go back to the original question about frame data, though; working with hard numbers helps you to quantify situations, which means you can make decisions and be confident about the outcome. (That is to say, it's a "compressed" form of experience.)
If you do things on the fly you have less "control" over the situation and this often leads to losing without knowing the reason, or "why did that hit me", or that creeping sense of frustration that you can't seem to shake off.
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