I really wish they'd overhaul half the new girls.

[Aspect]

It seems like you didn't read the entire post.

Literally all it would take, as I see it, is making it so bodies don't flop around, ground bouncing off the slightest touch. Seriously, just some kind of gravity would do the trick. Has nothing to do with the damage itself.

But that's not even the point here. I'm just talking about expanding the new characters' tools, so people aren't virtually helpless outside of the ONE setup.


Because that's not what I'm looking for?
And it seems like you DIDNT read all of this, since that has no relevance to the topic.

Ok I agree that was a stupid post, but Momiji's air game is kinda her gimmick. Stun lunch for good damage, I don't see what's wrong with it. Why fix something that isn't broken? Players are just doing what they find is optimal.

Watching TFC, SomethingUnique's Mila with the critical burst setup every time...

should we overhaul her because that setup is viable and can be used for great effect?

 

[Argentus]

Ok I agree that was a stupid post, but Momiji's air game is kinda her gimmick. Stun lunch for good damage, I don't see what's wrong with it. Why fix something that isn't broken? Players are just doing what they find is optimal.

Watching TFC, SomethingUnique's Mila with the critical burst setup every time...

should we overhaul her because that setup is viable and can be used for great effect?

Um....there's nothing to overhaul with mila. If someone gets around that setup, Mila has other just as viable tools to fall back on.

Rachel and Momiji don't, at least from what I've seen. That's what I'm trying to address. Mila is a very "all around" type character with a lot of options, while most of the other two characters are too specialized, to the point of being up a creek if they can't get off their limited setups for their ONE gimmick. It'd be like if Mila couldn't do anything else just because you avoid her mount setups.

I'm not saying to remove their gimmick, I'm saying to broaden their options. Like, I'd love to pick up Rachel and play like I used to play Nicole, but Rachel is just not capable of it. Maybe its just because I don't have enough experience with her, but it feels like she can't do SHIT outside of setting up her stomp and air throw.

Like look back on my huge post from the first page. I compared Nicole to Rachel, with rachel supposedly being her successor, but in reality, she has barely ANY options or tools compared to what Nicole used to have.

 

[Jyakotu]

Honestly, I've played enough Rachel and Momiji players to know what to expect. If people will keep going for the same set ups for the best damage, then it should be easier to hold out of those set ups, no? Like, a lot of low level Momiji players will keep using her air kick with the built in critical burst. Nine times out of ten, they will ALWAYS do the full attack and end with a kick. Once I figured that out, it was easy to hold. Same for Rachel players. A lot of them will try to attack low in order to launch you for the air throw shenanigans. DOA is a game based off reads and a lot of people will often go for the same set ups if it's helping them win. You can actually use that as an advantage, because you know how to counter it.

 

[Argentus]

Honestly, I've played enough Rachel and Momiji players to know what to expect. If people will keep going for the same set ups for the best damage, then it should be easier to hold out of those set ups, no? Like, a lot of low level Momiji players will keep using her air kick with the built in critical burst. Nine times out of ten, they will ALWAYS do the full attack and end with a kick. Once I figured that out, it was easy to hold. Same for Rachel players. A lot of them will try to attack low in order to launch you for the air throw shenanigans. DOA is a game based off reads and a lot of people will often go for the same set ups if it's helping them win. You can actually use that as an advantage, because you know how to counter it.

....yes, and? Not sure what you are getting at.
I'm saying the characters should have some other viable options so they aren't stuck just trying the same setup over and over. They lack versatility, it seems.

 

[Jyakotu]

....yes, and? Not sure what you are getting at.
I'm saying the characters should have some other viable options so they aren't stuck just trying the same setup over and over. They lack versatility, it seems.

Rachel is basically Nicole from DOA4, so how does she lack variety when she inherited the move set? Also, DOA is all about mixing up, so people can go for different set ups. But as I said, if a person is getting hit by the same set ups over and over, of course they're going to keep using them until you find a way around them.

 

[Argentus]

Rachel is basically Nicole from DOA4, so how does she lack variety when she inherited the move set? Also, DOA is all about mixing up, so people can go for different set ups. But as I said, if a person is getting hit by the same set ups over and over, of course they're going to keep using them until you find a way around them.

I'm actually starting up DOA4 now to rego through Nicoles options to see what they could/should bring back to help tweak Rachel to be better.

*goes through Nicoles training*
Yeah, even though they share some strings, Nicoles seem WAY faster, less interruptable. Rachel doesn't have that leaping straight punch. Most of Nicole's strings end in a straight attack, while Rachels are usually slow and only good for easy to read launchers.

I have both 360 and ps3 on right now, Nicole and Rachel in training, going down Nicole's moveset and trying to recreate them with Rachel to see what of Nicoles old moveset they should bring back to help Rachel.

Rachel could use Nicoles
8PP (rachel only has 8p, not the following straight punch)
3ppp (rachel's version is a much slower string of swinging mids)
3pp6ppp (Rachel doesn't have any options like this)
3ppkk (rachel can't switch to kicks off 3pp like nicole could)
6PPP (Rachel doesn't have the 3rd punch, only 6PPK version)
6pkk (Nicole's original felt faster)
4PP (Nicole could delay/charge the second P, unlike Rachel, although Rachel can continue the string for 4PPPP, while Nicole's simply shot the opponent backwards after the second P)
46P (Leon's tackle, Rachel is lacking it)
236p (Rising upper)
214p (Overhead slap, while Rachels 214 is essentially Nicoles old 236p)
3(Hold)P a straight hook, while all Rachel can do from that is her standard jab.
33p ( a quick diagonal crushing punch. Rachel has no options there)
66p (Nicoles was a high, not a mid, but thats mostly due to Nicole being way taller, also Nicoles sent them flying)
4k (Nicole had a spinning round house, Rachels is a standard small punt)
6kp (Nicoles P was the downshot from her 33p, while Rachels seems to be a slightly slower double armed full overhead, seemingly to make up for the difference in height)
8k (Nicoles was a launching up kick, Rachels is an overhead drop kick)
66p (Nicoles was faster)
4P+K (Nicole was a stance that led to a straight punch (but could be confused for kick version), while Rachels is the same double overhead from 6kp preceded by a small hop. So again, Nicoles was faster)
H+K (NIcoles was a quick rising knee to the face, Rachels is a slow roundhouse)
4H+K (Same stance as 4P+K, but leads to a kick instead, good for mixup from the stance. Rachel just has another slow spinning high kick)
3H+K (Nicole had a quick ankle sweep, Rachel tries to do her stomp even if the opponent isnt grounded. They should give her the quick sweep if the opponent isn't grounded, leaving the stomp as a down attack)
T (Quick face punch like Mila now has for Nicole, but slower than Mila's, a judo throw to the ground for Rachel)
4T (Holding the opponent up, then punching them back for Nicole. For Rachel, just a judo throw backwards, leaving them both grounded and getting up)
6T (for Nicole, Bayman's little "stomp on their foot and knee them to the side", for Rachel, its Nicole's 4T, but instead of knocking them away, she punches them up and lets them fall down, again, seemingly only good for setting up the stomp)
41236T (Nicole: Plasma throw, Essentially just holding them up, punching them, then kicking them back. Rachels version is the same except bouncing them off the ground instead of the kickback at the end)
214T (Lift up, punch, ground bounce, for Nicole. This became Rachels hcirlceT, only Nicole's bounced way higher with more hangtime.)
T to opponents back (Quick neck punch, like standard T throw, only to the back of the opponents head, leaving them stunned, Rachel has a leaping head drop that leaves both characters getting up. Nicoles seems far more useful)
4T, 4T on backfacing opponent (Leon/Bayman's hanging neck tree, only good for its own damage, but rachel has no other options against standing backfacing opponents, so another tool would be nice)
3T against crouching opponent (Nicole crushes and does a high groundbounce to the opponent, Rachel just does a quick little hit with her butt that barely even stuns. I think Rachel should get that ground bounce.)
2T against crouching opponents (Nicole does a necklift and punches them back, sending them flying, Rachel does an armlock and drops them with no ground bounce)
High Punch Hold (Nicole catches the punch, does two full armbars, the second slamming the opponent to the ground by their face. Rachels does a spinning trip punch that pushes the opponent away)
Mid Punch Hold (Nicole, does Leon's "Turnaround, neck snap, kick away", Rachel, punches the opponents feet out from under them and then does an overhead, driving them to the ground)
Mid Kick Hold (Nicole: Catches the kick and punches the opponent straight into the air, good for Followups. Rachel, same thing but a spinning double handed punch)
Low Punch Hold (NIcole, quickly catches punch and hits opponent to the ground face down next to her. Rachel: Long leaping throwdown that leaves opponent grounded)
Jumping Punch Hold (Nicole catches the opponent and face slams them to the ground. Rachel....i dunno what of Ayanes moves are aerial punches so I have a hard time checking)
Jumping Kick Hold (Nicole, catches and punches them face up to the ground by their stomach)

So overall, while Nicole couldn't do the extended combos Rachel can, she had WAY more options, with the moveset being geared more towards giving space, solid strikes, and bouncing the opponent off the environment (like Leon), while Rachel's actual strings and strikes suck for anything other than setting up her air throw or stomp, with most of her moves being slow and wonky, and half of her grabs and holds being no good for followups, leaving her kinda helpless if she can't set up her combo. I don't MAIN Rachel, but that's what I got off of just comparing the movelists in training. I really think they should merge more of Nicoles old set with Rachel to give her some better options.

Yeah no, Rachel lacks variety, much like he she lacks most of Nicole's moveset. They cant' even be played in the same style. I'm STILL trying to make that work.

Also, no, they'll still keep doing it over and over even when it doesn't work, because they don't see any other viable tools to fall back on for mixup.

 

[Jyakotu]

Yeah no, Rachel lacks variety, much like he she lacks most of Nicole's moveset. They cant' even be played in the same style. I'm STILL trying to make that work.

Also, no, they'll still keep doing it over and over even when it doesn't work, because they don't see any other viable tools to fall back on for mixup.

That's a lie. I know plenty of higher level Momiji and Rachel players who don't resort to the same tactics.

 

[Argentus]

That's a lie. I know plenty of higher level Momiji and Rachel players who don't resort to the same tactics.

Then I would be glad to face them, as I have come across exactly ONE momiji that broke rank.
But its not a lie that Rachel is literally NOTHING like Nicole, except for a scarce few recycled animations.

Its also not a lie, because its still true that most keep doing it over and over. The characters could seriously use more tools. Why is that such a bad thing?

 

[KasumiLover]

I don't see the reasons for Momiji and Rachel to he overhauled. They aren't one dimensional, that's how they're played. If you don't want to get air juggled, then you just have to watch carefully and hold accurately.My younger sister gets mad when i play against her in tag mode, because as a Phase 4 and Kasumi tag team, i can get up to about 25-28 hit combos in air juggles, and she says it isn't fair because she can't do a thing about it. While she is somewhat correct, she's also wrong because i bait her with setups that can easily be held to prevent me from juggling her characters to death. If you've seen the set-up with Momiji and Rachel so much, shouldn't you already be able to stop it since you've seen it multiple times, and could've found ways to bypass and punish their setups? Im not trying to be smart, but still, you can't not like a character because of setups that can be easily stopped. I mean hey, Kokoro is a bitch and a struggle for my Kasumi online, but she's alot more bearable because i studied her setups, and found ways to shut them down. So in conclusion, shouldn't you be able to stop their setups by now if you fought against them multiple times?

 

[d3v]

It seems like you didn't read the entire post.

Literally all it would take, as I see it, is making it so bodies don't flop around, ground bouncing off the slightest touch. Seriously, just some kind of gravity would do the trick. Has nothing to do with the damage itself.

But that's not even the point here. I'm just talking about expanding the new characters' tools, so people aren't virtually helpless outside of the ONE setup.


Because that's not what I'm looking for?
And it seems like you DIDNT read all of this, since that has no relevance to the topic.

I actually did read it but didn't comment because I could care less about the rest of the issue (since I already know the solution to dealing with a limited moveset - changing character). My problem is that every singe time, you find a way to bring your issues with juggles and optimization out.

Almost every single time you make a thread like this, you end up bring up the flawed premise that guaranteed damage and optimization is bad. All this does is sabotage whatever argument you have in the first place, because it makes it seem like that argument is rooted in this flawed premise.

 

[Awesmic]

Yeah... I dunno about anybody else, but this is ultimately leading to the same old rambling about said characters not having enough moves or move expansions... which I'm sure a full-fledged sequel will cover anyway, as every 3D fighting game does. Besides, these characters are relatively newer than most other members in the cast.

Until then, learning to deal with them as is quietly until the time arrives that a sequel will be announced is the best course of action, especially with all the info provided in dealing with them. Also, regarding all this talk about having one-dimensional viable options... sometimes doing something that's not viable will throw an opponent off course when they expect you to play smart, thus give you an advantage through a successful attempt at yomi. Problem solved. You've come up with a way to expand your strategy with said one-dimensional character vs. an opponent that anticipates your shenanigans.

 

[Argentus]

I actually did read it but didn't comment because I could care less about the rest of the issue (since I already know the solution to dealing with a limited moveset - changing character). My problem is that every singe time, you find a way to bring your issues with juggles and optimization out.

Almost every single time you make a thread like this, you end up bring up the flawed premise that guaranteed damage and optimization is bad. All this does is sabotage whatever argument you have in the first place, because it makes it seem like that argument is rooted in this flawed premise.

I did not. Its on YOU this time. I'm just saying it would be nice for them to have some other tools. Like I'm trying to pick up Rachel, but she feels really limited with options, same with Momiji, so i can't get into them, and its just being a waste of 3 bucks.
Then everyone immediately started in with the asinine "u just mad cuz you dunno how to deal with it" nonsense, and I responded to that like a damn fish on a hook.

Like I'm about to again.

I don't see the reasons for Momiji and Rachel to he overhauled. They aren't one dimensional, that's how they're played. If you don't want to get air juggled, then you just have to watch carefully and hold accurately.My younger sister gets mad when i play against her in tag mode, because as a Phase 4 and Kasumi tag team, i can get up to about 25-28 hit combos in air juggles, and she says it isn't fair because she can't do a thing about it. While she is somewhat correct, she's also wrong because i bait her with setups that can easily be held to prevent me from juggling her characters to death. If you've seen the set-up with Momiji and Rachel so much, shouldn't you already be able to stop it since you've seen it multiple times, and could've found ways to bypass and punish their setups? Im not trying to be smart, but still, you can't not like a character because of setups that can be easily stopped. I mean hey, Kokoro is a bitch and a struggle for my Kasumi online, but she's alot more bearable because i studied her setups, and found ways to shut them down. So in conclusion, shouldn't you be able to stop their setups by now if you fought against them multiple times?

Where did I say I couldn't stop it? What does that even have to DO with anything, whether I could or couldn't?

 

[d3v]

I did not. Its on YOU this time. I'm just saying it would be nice for them to have some other tools. Like I'm trying to pick up Rachel, but she feels really limited with options, same with Momiji, so i can't get into them, and its just being a waste of 3 bucks.
Then everyone immediately started in with the asinine "u just mad cuz you dunno how to deal with it" nonsense, and I responded to that like a damn fish on a hook.

Says the person who complained about air juggles and optimization before I even posted in this thread.

 

[Argentus]

Says the person who complained about air juggles and optimization before I even posted in this thread.

yeah sorry for snapping, 48 hours no sleep passing out now. Point was honestly just that I'd like to see them get more tools, was bringing up juggles because it seems like, for example, rachel can't do much outside of that ONE juggle, and while I don't use momiji, it seems the same case when fighting against her.

night

 

[Rikuto]

Thread locked. Everybody knows how you feel, Argentus. Nobody agrees. I know this. You know this. Everybody knows this.

This thread was a rant that you knew nobody was going to support, and was going to escalate into drama. Ranting is bad.

So I am arbitrarily making a new forum rule. The next time you make a thread or derail an existing one with a rant about juggling, I am going to make you write an 8000 word (minimum) public essay explaining why David Sirlin is your idol and why you consistently fall short of his greatness.