La Mariposa's Needed Improvements

[Goro Hazuki]

Can you be more specific about this? Rabies also thinks Lisa is good, but failed to provide any specifics. I believe she's low tier and have provided a multitude of reasons why, but no one is explaining why they think she's good.

For the record, she's more unsafe than most other characters and her CB is the same speed as everyone else (with a few exceptions).

Hey DrDogg, sure I'm more than happy to share. First, I want to thank you for all the character breakdowns you provided and I'm sure I'm not alone in expressing my appreciation for your hard work.

Now, why do I like Lisa?
Well, I like a character that has many options for various situations. I don't think Lisa is a "frametrap" type of character in general. She may have some (I still haven't gotten that deep with her strategies or frame data, but I will definitely when the game is released). But I don't need to have frame data to know she's quick. Yes, she's not "Rig" quick, but she's a fast grappler with a wide range of moves.
I'll use one example of options (and I believe they're useful if used correctly no matter the level of opponent you play against). The example I use is also a vulnerable one:

Let's say you use to do a back turn (you already broke the chain of attack by doing a back turn, but you made yourself vulnerable)
But with this, you have a wide option of moves from here:
You can do the "butt bump", which can be countered as a mid punch
Or you can throw, which looks alot like the butt bump in the early frames, so Lisa can get counter damage on the throw
Or you can back flip hit
Or you can back flip fake back flip hit
Or go into
Or do a low kick
Or you can do for a very high lift up and continue with a juggle for a large amount of damage

Now, the dreaded getting hit from back turn. Yes, ideally, this shouldn't happen, but it does. This is where spacing comes in. Try to space yourself properly according to the opponent (sorry for sounding kinda basic here, but it's true). So if you know they have garanteed setups from a certain distance, try to be just outside of it. Etc. Etc..

These are just a few you can do from that situation. Now granted, a lot of people don't like the vulnerability of BT. But Ayane players and Christie players (like myself) can make use of them. Use back moves with attack properties that go under highs or mids, or over lows. One could argue that because Ayane relies on BT, that means she's weak. But we all know she's a fantastic character.

So in short, while I haven't done in depth play with her yet, I've played enough with her to believe she's a solid character. I'm not new to DOA, and have played all of the games since day one, so I'm not falling into the trap that "ooh, she can trick people with her capoeira kicks like Eddie Gordo". I always felt a character can be assessed by the options they have at dishing out damage. And Lisa certainly has that. It also adds to the fun, which is important to me when commiting to a character. Hope this clarifies abit about what I meant. Oh yeah, and best of luck finishing the strategy guide if it's not done yet.

 

[DrDogg]

She DOES have a mixup though .. and a MEAN one at that, particularly if you were in critical stun..

Not only can you Choose to either Hit or Throw .. you now have a 3rd option of actually Canceling the jumpforward to another quick one .. and you have the same 2 options from there!

you can bait that shit all day ..

also as I am aware Throws (including that one ) track in the game ..

not to mention that her Air-throw does mean damage and can be done from a lower height now..

No offense, but I think you need to play better competition. You can slow escape from ALL of Lisa's stuns long before any of her double/triple jumping mix-ups begin. And once you're out of stun, a simple jab interrupts pretty much every option. Also, her jumping attacks (including the OHs) do not track in the IPL/GVN build. All normal throws track though.

 

[Batcommander]

No offense, but I think you need to play better competition. You can slow escape from ALL of Lisa's stuns long before any of her double/triple jumping mix-ups begin. And once you're out of stun, a simple jab interrupts pretty much every option. Also, her jumping attacks (including the OHs) do not track in the IPL/GVN build. All normal throws track though.

good grief lol

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

You can slow escape from ALL of Lisa's stuns long before any of her double/triple jumping mix-ups begin. And once you're out of stun, a simple jab interrupts pretty much every option. Also, her jumping attacks (including the OHs) do not track in the IPL/GVN build. All normal throws track though.

I've done a little testing.
You're right. Simple jab beats all options (even in stun), sometimes giving you a hard time to block right after the flip.
Also, Sidestep renders the attack useless. However, the game seems to get a bit wonky after sidestepping the flip. I'm sure you experienced this yourself where in many cases both characters followups whiff.

This also happens when an opponent does a quick wake up sometimes and you want to carry on the pressure but find yourself behind them all of a sudden. I'm sure you came across this weird situation as well. I'm assuming (and hoping) this gets fixed in the final build. I think if they give the flip throw at least some tracking it would be better.

But I still thinks shes solid.
In a sense that she doesn't really NEED the flips. They're just a gimmick. kinda like how Ayane can cancel into forward spin. Granted that spin is unsafe as hell but it works when dished out at the right time.

the fact that she can choose to be either facing you or back turned in a lot of her strings creates some nice deception because as you know her options from both are different.And she has some crazy launchers from back turn.

I haven't gone that in depth with her but, I wouldn't jump straight away to say shes crap. Like I said before she DOES have safer followups to previously unsafe stuff

for example,
PPK instead of going for that she can do:
PP(4)P+K .. the buttslam becomes almost part of the string
PP(4)P launcher and high crush
PP(4)K gives her a safer mid kick option allowing her to turn back to the opponent
PP42K goes low
PP47K High NH launcher

another example would be her dumb and predictable 6PPP
she can go 6P4P goes high and opens up her BT options
and you can choose to delay the last P in the 6P4PP string quite a bit.
she can go 6P8KK (in critical she would launch from the 1st K)
or 6PK
or 6PK4 (goes to BT)

those are 2 examples...

- she has 4 turn around stuns.
4P6K
2KP6K
Sidestep K
H+K

- she has 2 sit down stuns: (both guaranteeing launchers)
(counter) 9K (puts her in BT)
(counter) KKK (BT)

I think shes far more solid and her mix up really has improved a lot..
The gimmicks are just icing on the cake really ..

The only thing I would say setting her back is that I really couldn't find a decent guaranteed setup for her burst. Yes, this is a big issue..
Unless they decide to make her BT buttslam the CB then she'd be far better because you'd guarantee that from her sit down stun. That alone would increase her potential 10 fold.

 

[virtuaPAI]

To fix the off axis of your moves, you need to tap to realign yourself.

 

[DrDogg]

Yes, she's not "Rig" quick, but she's a fast grappler with a wide range of moves.

Lisa is faster than Bass, that's it. She has a 12 frame jab as her fastest attack. Tina would be a much better fit for your description.

Let's say you use to do a back turn (you already broke the chain of attack by doing a back turn, but you made yourself vulnerable)
But with this, you have a wide option of moves from here:
You can do the "butt bump", which can be countered as a mid punch
Or you can throw, which looks alot like the butt bump in the early frames, so Lisa can get counter damage on the throw
Or you can back flip hit
Or you can back flip fake back flip hit
Or go into
Or do a low kick
Or you can do for a very high lift up and continue with a juggle for a large amount of damage

Most of this is either unsafe, doesn't offer much of a reward, or can be easily interrupted. The best things Lisa has going for her are her 64T and her run stance. Unfortunately, her run stance is easily evaded once you know the match-up, and her 64T will only get you so far (with limited damage if Lisa's back is to the wall).

for example,
PPK instead of going for that she can do:
PP(4)P+K .. the buttslam becomes almost part of the string
PP(4)P launcher and high crush
PP(4)K gives her a safer mid kick option allowing her to turn back to the opponent
PP42K goes low
PP47K High NH launcher

another example would be her dumb and predictable 6PPP
she can go 6P4P goes high and opens up her BT options
and you can choose to delay the last P in the 6P4PP string quite a bit.
she can go 6P8KK (in critical she would launch from the 1st K)
or 6PK
or 6PK4 (goes to BT)

those are 2 examples...

- she has 4 turn around stuns.
4P6K
2KP6K
Sidestep K
H+K

- she has 2 sit down stuns: (both guaranteeing launchers)
(counter) 9K (puts her in BT)
(counter) KKK (BT)

Most of this she had in DOA4. It didn't help her much then, and nothing has really changed about the attacks now. In fact, in most cases, if I'm going to lead into anything with Lisa's slow jabs, I'd rather do PPK to get the guard break and transition into the run stance.

The stumble stuns you mentioned aren't as effective if the opponent slow escapes, and Lisa is still very unsafe. From BT she has some options, but her throw game is not the least bit scary from BT so an opponent can be content to just block and punish. Even while facing forward, Lisa's throws aren't all that scary unless they're hi counter, aside from 64T.

Lisa isn't terrible. I'd say she's much better than she was in DOA4, but that's not saying much. Look at her tools compared to Bass, Tina, Eliot, Hayabusa, even Hitomi who still plays almost exactly like she did before. All of these characters have far better tools than Lisa does and she's slower than every single one aside from Bass.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Lisa isn't terrible. I'd say she's much better than she was in DOA4, but that's not saying much. Look at her tools compared to Bass, Tina, Eliot, Hayabusa, even Hitomi who still plays almost exactly like she did before. All of these characters have far better tools than Lisa does and she's slower than every single one aside from Bass.

Well like I said. Give her an easier burst to land in more guaranteed setups and you have a far more solid Lisa.
The ass attack from BT would be the best burst as it would link with the sit downs .. and as I mentioned before, she can go into BT from so many things .. so it would actually be a good burst.

But it might be too late for that now..

It all depends on what last tweaks TN did before the game went gold ... if any..

 

[MasterHavik]

man...dogg tell it like it is. wow...TN must be drunk when they made her. All these nice options lose to one button inputs or simple movement.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Is the game in fact gold now?

 

[Batcommander]

Thank you dogg for pointing out Lisa's glaring flaws. Obviously she has more tools than DOA4, but that's not saying much when everybody else gets tools too.

I really wanted Lisa's flying moves to be viable this time around, but i guess that won't be the case. wtf is a luchador without their flying moves?!?!

Honestly i wish they would scrap this whole BT nonsense and focus exclusively on Carerra and that new jump loop that Cow was talking about. I've never even seen a wrestler that fights with their backturned to the opponent, and we already have two characters that do it better than Lisa anyways, so yeah.

 

[MasterHavik]

for Lisa to get better...she needs to lose BT, get faster, and have throws simpler to Bass.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Lisa is faster than Bass, that's it. She has a 12 frame jab as her fastest attack. Tina would be a much better fit for your description.

Bass' P+K was always 12 frames. Don't know how fast it is in DOA5, but it should stay the same.

 

[Kodachi]

for Lisa to get better...she needs to lose BT, get faster, and have throws simpler to Bass.

Her BT is fine, and it's great for baiting, and confusing people.

 

[DrDogg]

Bass' P+K was always 12 frames. Don't know how fast it is in DOA5, but it should stay the same.

It's still i12, but that's not his jab.

Her BT is fine, and it's great for baiting, and confusing people.

Play someone who isn't confused when Lisa is in BT? You can't really bait anything. She's never at advantage going into BT on block and she's not particularly fast in BT. Anyone who knows the match-up will not use a high attack since all she can really do is crush from BT.

 

[UncleKitchener]

It's still i12, but that's not his jab.

I thought you were talking about attacks in general, but okay then.

 

[Pupi18]

All Lisa needs for Advantage is in this sweet video.

 

[MasterHavik]

Her BT is fine, and it's great for baiting, and confusing people.

lol broski it ain't Ayane or Helena BT game. Lisa's BT is ass compare to those two.

 

[ScattereDreams]

lol broski it ain't Ayane or Helena BT game. Lisa's BT is ass compare to those two.

You've never played a good Lisa; don't say things out of inexperience, and stick to Zack..

This guy shows some effective BT play

What i'd change this, make her neutral jab 10 frames; 12 frame jab for someone like Lisa is stupid. With a 12f jab she has nothing good to start a round with. Most mids like Jann Lee's 6p beats that, ideally 1p would be a good option for baiting highs in the beginning of a round but too risky.

Make it so her sit down stuns don't push her opponent so far away.

= Turn that into a guard crush.

Make her back turned transition attacks 0 frames on block, or +1.

Her attacks from La Cerrera or whatever it's called seem "too slow"

I'd make her jumping OH throws faster so they can be really something to fear.

should have some invulnerability, allow us to cross over knocked opponents.

Guard Crush - Change the recovery animation - Instead of her landing on the ground doing a full 2 second recovery, make her land on her feet. That way she'll have less recovery frames. Might even get something guaranteed. It was useless guard crush in DOA4.

She should have more safe strings, a large majority of them are pretty predictable anyway.

 

[DrDogg]

You've never played a good Lisa; don't say things out of inexperience, and stick to Zack..

This guy shows some effective BT play

I didn't see anything significant in those videos aside from good usage of a slippery surface. The Jann Lee player was not good and didn't punish hardly anything Lisa did. He also got hit randomly as if he wasn't holding block. Was this an online match?

The Leifang player was better, but still didn't defend against Lisa well. The slippery surface definitely helped Lisa there, but again, nothing noteworthy was really displayed in these matches. Definitely nothing that would indicate she's anything other than low tier.

Make it so her sit down stuns don't push her opponent so far away.

= Turn that into a guard crush.

Make her back turned transition attacks 0 frames on block, or +1.

Her attacks from La Cerrera or whatever it's called seem "too slow"

I'd make her jumping OH throws faster so they can be really something to fear.

should have some invulnerability, allow us to cross over knocked opponents.

Guard Crush - Change the recovery animation - Instead of her landing on the ground doing a full 2 second recovery, make her land on her feet. That way she'll have less recovery frames. Might even get something guaranteed. It was useless guard crush in DOA4.

She should have more safe strings, a large majority of them are pretty predictable anyway.

Most of this stuff is already in DOA5. 66K has better recovery if you cancel into run and 9P goes over opponents on the ground if you're close enough. P+K is a guard break at +5.

She needs to be safer, but so does everyone else for the most part.

 

[MasterHavik]

You've never played a good Lisa; don't say things out of inexperience, and stick to Zack..

This guy shows some effective BT play

LOL, I'll stick to Zack, since he's the better character. Dude the first video you showed was a Jann lee fishing for counters like it's free. All this guy does is poke with BT, and make good reads. Overall, it's not the character it's the player. The guy playing Lisa is good. Sadly, it doesn't hide the fact that her BT is still ass.