Mentality Behind The Monster (Open Space Shenanigans)

[Rikuto]

More often than not, your juggles with Bayman will suck if you try to max out the threshold. This is honestly a waste of time, because currently his post CB juggle is broken and needs to be fixed. He doesn't have to waste his time with CB's and big juggles though... that's not how he rolls these days.

But If you ARE going to juggle, these are the ways you do it.

Straight Forward Approach.

Step 1. Tap opponent with anything to stun them, usually and do not waste your time doing anything more to the threshold unless you are trying to bait holds.

Step 2.

Step 3.

That's it. That's all you do to juggle in open space if you're going for damage, because it does the most bang for the buck for the minimalistic amount of guessing you are doing. It's not there to end the round, it's there to do a moderate chunk of damage and piss your opponent off into holding the next time the situation occurs. Oh, and it also leaves you at the ideal distance to avoid wakeup kicks and pressure your opponent when they start getting stupid.

"I'll dribble you like a basketball, or not" Approach.

Step 1. Same as before.

Step 2. Launch with

Here is where your options branch...

Step 3a. (with opponents back to wall) BT . The third hit will wall splat for additional damage and the slow descent gives you time to back off and re-position.... or just hump your opponent if you want to keep playing in-your-face pressure.

Step 3b. (in open space) BT . There will be a short bounce and you should have adequate time to see if your opponent has tech'd or not. If they have not, you can ground throw/knee drop them depending on how good your reaction time is. If they HAVE tech'd you followup with pressure from , , or any of his heavy hitting offensive holds.


Hey Ayane, I think you gained a few pounds...

One of Bayman's more terrifying ways to approach somebody now is to invest heavily in . On paper this move is garbage, in practice its terrifying. On CH it will launch, and can be followup up with his BT nonsense that was just mentioned. As a whiff punishment it will do a fairly heavy stun and set him up for some really retarded mindgames. Primarily, you will either followup a stun from this attack with either which causes a sitdown stun and opens up "the straight forward approach" OR you will wait for the stun to end and try to get them with his BT offensive hold which I will cover in a moment.

On block is "unsafe", but as a second punch can come from the string and you can delay the hell out of it, most people will be too scared to call you out on this and it remains a guess on their end. Assuming your opponent has good reaction time, he will most likely attempt to get you into a back turned stun with a mid or high. All Mids from here can be stopped with as his parry works while he is backturned. Highs and several mids can be crushed with (which, if they fail a fairly strict tech from they will eat a free ground throw). In the event your opponent is attempting to actually low jab you out of the situation, you are better off simply delaying the second punch of the initial string as long as possible and launching them with it as they attempt to interrupt.

Once you manage to scout your opponents typical response you can work on getting them scared of the situation and force them to turtle up and continue blocking. Once this fear is instilled into them, you can start using Baymans BT . This offensive hold will put Bayman's opponent backturned and leave him at +18, which allows him to commit untold acts of molestation against them. For a quick example, is a three hit guaranteed launcher after this setup.

I am still experimenting to see if there are alternate manners of which to capitalize on this and feel free to post any creative ones you come up with, but the same bread and butter juggle under "Straight Forward Approach" still applies post-launch. You may have to dash forward slightly before you use the however, lest you miss the ground throw at the end. You can use also to get the "bounce pressure" mentioned in the previous section's 3b.


Oh, and also...

is a natural combo on CH and is legit as hell. High crushing legit spacing option, makes people cry on water/ice, leads into very fast wall combos as well from a low. Not to be fucked with.


Okay, there's some open space bread and butter for now folks. I'll post up some more nonsense when I'm feeling motivated. Right now I'm tired, grouchy, and require caffeine. Please feel free to post any discoveries you make.

I'd love to share everything I know with you guys, unfortunately I'm a horrendously lazy man. Please don't hold it against me.

 

[Gi9a]

Any advice from you regarding Bayman is very well noted thanks Rikuto. I do have a problem when higher levels hit me once (Kasumi for example) and punish me afterwards for reacting to the stun..... other than that Bayman is taking out all of my competition fairly easy. I'll keep what you say on my mind to improve my play-style with him!

Also to contribute to this thread I will share a secret I like to do (that normally works) with Bayman when fighting opponents. When the opponent hits the ground immediately try to grab them, if they get grabbed that's great but most of the time they will try to punish you with a wake up kick, immediately after your ground grab fails do the advanced mid-kick counter hold and it will catch them even while your recovering. Again it's probably basic knowledge for the pros but hopefully it helps some new players.

 

[Rikuto]

Kasumi is rough for Bayman. She is much, much faster and tends to beat out a lot of Baymans options at range.

Best advice I can offer is go in with your guard up, be patient, and tank roll into his OH a lot mid-string. Everything else simply requires more experience reading peoples mixup patterns during stun.

 

[Gi9a]

Kasumi is rough for Bayman. She is much, much faster and tends to beat out a lot of Baymans options at range.

Best advice I can offer is go in with your guard up, be patient, and tank roll into his OH a lot mid-string. Everything else simply requires more experience reading peoples mixup patterns during stun.

Can you go into the tank rolling a little more? When I tank roll forward i'm usually getting hit as bayman goes through the animation (Sorry to be a noob but OH = on hit?). I'd also like to hear your thoughts on his new for me its very fun to use two times in a row and mix it up.

 

[Rikuto]

Ah, alright. I see your confusion.

I'm not talking about his forward tank roll. I don't recommend using that at all, in fact, unless its a part of a juggle ender. I'm talking about his /.

OH = Offensive Hold. You can use it out of his side tank roll, thereby evading somebody during an attack and scoring a high-counter hold. On some of kasumi's longer strings it is quite effective, though it obviously won't stop everything.

His new is definitely better than his old one. I actually like using it to cover distance at mid field with my opponent on occasion. When you combine it with either follow up it has remarkably good travel distance.

 

[Jargen]

I was wondering if there is a move you generally favor to put fear into the opponent, so that they will fall for grabs more often? I find myself just poking for my offense and waiting for them to make a noticeable fuck up, which can get tiresome as it requires me to be on my guard 90% of the match. Maybe that's just how Bayman works? If so I can work my way around that.

Sorry if I am being unclear. I am still quite new to the game.

 

[Gi9a]

normal punches do the trick. I think everyone's scared of bayman haha

 

[Rikuto]

is Bayman's best move, period. Fairly quick, mid, causes deep stun on CH, and when it is blocked you can go into his string.

If you get to the point in the string where it becomes you can cancel into his side tank roll for additional pressure. One of his fundamental ways of getting people with offensive holds is to simply put them into a stun with something like 3p, then use something slower like the DDT so that it catches them as they leave the stun. Drag some damage out of them, and if they break it, remember that you still have frame advantage so toss out a quick strike and try to put them right back into the same situation again.

People will also be more susceptible to his offensive holds after you force them to block something like 66P+K, because that puts Bayman at an INSANE +9 advantage.

 

[Gi9a]

is Bayman's best move, period. Fairly quick, mid, causes deep stun on CH, and when it is blocked you can go into his string.

is very good as well to throw out every once in awhile by itself as it can be mixed up into a punch or grab.

 

[TRI_Gero]

Straight Forward Approach.

Step 1. Tap opponent with anything to stun them, usually and do not waste your time doing anything more to the threshold unless you are trying to bait holds.

Step 2.

Step 3.

That's it. That's all you do to juggle in open space if you're going for damage, because it does the most bang for the buck for the minimalistic amount of guessing you are doing. It's not there to end the round, it's there to do a moderate chunk of damage and piss your opponent off into holding the next time the situation occurs. Oh, and it also leaves you at the ideal distance to avoid wakeup kicks and pressure your opponent when they start getting stupid.

I've question about the step 3, is it supposed to do the Tank roll after the , or am I messing up the input? My guess right now, as I've been trying to do this in training mode is that it is a setup for the tank roll grab and I am thinking its supposed to be a juggle ending in ground throw, Im also quite new so I also wanted to ask, is "Natural combo" a special glossary thing? if so what does it mean? thanks in advance!

 

[Rikuto]

I've question about the step 3, is it supposed to do the Tank roll after the , or am I messing up the input? My guess right now, as I've been trying to do this in training mode is that it is a setup for the tank roll grab and I am thinking its supposed to be a juggle ending in ground throw, Im also quite new so I also wanted to ask, is "Natural combo" a special glossary thing? if so what does it mean? thanks in advance!

Right, it does the tank roll immediately after the kick. It's actually part of the string now, so you need to do the string version instead of the stand alone tank roll in order for it to connect.

Note that you may have issues getting the ground throw portion to connect against heavyweights unless they are deeper in the threshold. This works just fine against lights and mediums, however.

Natural combo (or 2-in-1, 3-in-1, etc) basically means that if you do connect one attack in a string, the next cannot be held or blocked no matter what.

In the case of Bayman's , if the first punch lands on counter-hit or the opponent was in a stun prior to it landing, the second punch cannot be held at all.

 

[shinryu]

So this is maybe a more general system question, but does an OH need to be in active frames to beat a strike attempt or does it have some strike invincibility in the startup as well? Just looking at frames at +9 i'd assume Bayman's 6f+p or Tina's 66f+p should beat anything at i16, but I think Bayman's 66f+p is 19 frames (iirc) and so i assume you'd be beaten against anybody with a i10 or better p. Correct? (i'd also assume that's the time to throw out some i18 heavy strikes or 33f+p). Or will 66f+p still win in that frame advantage?

 

[miyodarius]

I know this is Bayman "open space shenanigans", but I really been trying to work his wall grab in my game. was is his best options, that good on damage and leave your opponent next the wall?

 

[Souichiro]

I know this is Bayman "open space shenanigans", but I really been trying to work his wall grab in my game. was is his best options, that good on damage and leave your opponent next the wall?

will make them roll far if it lands on idle, hold or if it counter hits. I think it also leaves you at a slight frame advantage on block.
Aditionally and (if the first hit lands on stun or hold) will also send them rolling away from you and possibly close to a wall.

 

[miyodarius]

will make them roll far if it lands on idle, hold or if it counter hits. I think it also leaves you at a slight frame advantage on block.
Aditionally and (if the first hit lands on stun or hold) will also send them rolling away from you and possibly close to a wall.

Oh thanks for the quick reply, but i think I didnt word it right. I meant after the wall grab. In this situation, I like to wall grab again to get my opponent guessing, and mix his string and his . The P,3P string is was enough to hit the 1st attack and the 236K will knock my opponent down and if they block, i can still continue my offense off the frame advantage (also beats out sidestepping).

But my question was, what are some key moves Y'all do after the 6H+P wall grab?

 

[Souichiro]

You can repeat the wall grab for a second time if they try to hold or block or you can go with which if the last hit connects it will wall splat. I sometimes like to or
after the first wall grab and then immediately wall grab them again if they hold or block. You just have to be creative about it

 

[miyodarius]

Ever since I found out how dangerous Bayman's wall grab and how to keep them next to the wall, Bayman becomes so fun to play. I've actually got hate mail from that grab. My Bayman still isn't really good, but I can't think of one round I have lost once I got that grab off on my opponent!

 

[Rikuto]

Bayman's wall game is key to victory.

 

[Sly Bass]

A fun mix up I like to do is get the initial stun, and do for the trip stun. If they don't slow escape, it's a free . If they do slow escape, it's an easy DDT. Play someone long enough and they'll start ducking, making your launchers a greater threat.

What does more damage off of BT? , or , ?

I still have a lot of trouble with people trying to rush me down. I'll start tank rolling and holding way too much. Christie, Kasumi, and a good Hitomi are my bane.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

A fun mix up I like to do is get the initial stun, and do for the trip stun. If they don't slow escape, it's a free . If they do slow escape, it's an easy DDT. Play someone long enough and they'll start ducking, making your launchers a greater threat.

If they duck, you can also try P+K 3K 236P 33P 3K 2T 22T. First hit is i19 though, so they could stand back up if they react quickly enough.

What does more damage off of BT? , or , ?

I'd have to check, but I'm guessing it's the third option. In my experience though, people usually like to block or go for BT attacks when they are BT, so I like to go for an OH.

I still have a lot of trouble with people trying to rush me down. I'll start tank rolling and holding way too much. Christie, Kasumi, and a good Hitomi are my bane.

I'm the same way. And I regularly play with a Christie player. Keep in mind that you have that i7 throw (4T). I typically make use of that when they mess up their pressure.