My personal list of gameplay changes

[TRI Mike]

During the afternoon I made a list of everything I feel needs to be changed about the game mechanics. I went from general stuff to character-specific ones for the fighters I use the most and am more familiar with. Now, before bombarding Team Ninja with links to it, I'd like everyone to read it and tell me, what do you disagree with¿, what needs to be added¿, what do you agree with, but would add to complement a specific point¿ or anything about what you think.

You can check it out in my blog HERE.

 

[Brute]

So, I disagree on just about everything you listed. Not that I'm trying to be a dick, but here's why I feel the way I do:

- HOLD RECOVERY IS TOO SHORT. I'll admit it: I'm sick of people whining about the damn holds being overpowered. If you're being a slower character like Bass or Ryu what exactly do you propose one do when being assaulted by Kokoro's bullfucky attacks strings that cause heavy stun, damage and variety without crossing the threshold (if used by a skilled player)? As long as she switched rapidly between mid and lows (which she can do), you couldn't crush highs, your low crushes would be intercepted (too slow/long) and none of your damn punches could beat hers in speed.

-CRITICAL BURST THRESHOLD NEEDS TO BE SHORTER. Critical burst threshold does not need to be shorter. Maybe with certain characters. But Kasumi has several line-ups that can CB on a fourth strike. While fine in theory, mixed with the power blow system which can wipe out loads of health for simply holding down a button, making CBs too short would totally make PBs OP. "most characters need to land 4-5 strikes in order to achieve it." That's a good thing.

-MORE UNHOLDABLE STUNS. Game does not needs more unholdable stuns. Although this was just you reiterating the same point yet again, I felt obliged to object. Yet again.

- CHARACTERS NEED TO BE SAFER IN GENERAL. Agree and disagree. With your system of nerfing holds to the point of them being nearly useless, combining that with more safe strings would result in matches where characters just whiff out their longest, dumbest, most predictable combo chains at nausea without fear of punishment. Particularly of note are highly delayable combos.
However, as it is certain characters are so safe it's like they're wearing bulletproof vests, whereas others have basically 0 safe moves. There should be a bit more balance imo.

-HELENA I don't main Helena, so take this for what it is, but frame data isn't everything. Keep in mind a lot of her combos leave her in her crush stance, so fast jabs that would normally punish her after a risky combo may be ineffective. While one could low throw, Helena can then attack again rapidly to counter-act it. I've seen players use Helena brilliantly. She doesn't really need any buffs or nerfs in my experience.

-TINA Again, this seems like you just wanting your favorite characters to become unflawed. A smart Tina player can maintain pressure excellently.

-ALPHA-152 Disagree. Using her 3H counter mixed with high damage and good free-canceling makes her more than viable as is. She's imbalanced, but not underpowered. If anything, I'd give her more options from her float, stance.

-HAYABUSA I can't comment extensively on him due to the Tina/Helena issue I mentioned above (since I main him). But Ryu has a plethora of bullshit problems in my experience.

edit: Again, not trying to be a dick. You're entitled to your own stance.

 

[d3v]

Just make the game like the E3 version where it was easy to get Critical Burst.

 

[Dr Sexual]

Make it so that you only get one chance to hold after entering a stun state.

MAKE ALL WAKEUP KICKS NORMAL HIT... (Unless you get caught trying to crush or evade it)

Game fixed.

Seriously.. Against characters with shit ground games its almost beneficial to not tech and play the 50/50 wakeup kick free stun into combo game.

Dont even get me started on grounded opponents off the wall where you literally HAVE TO retreat if you dont wanna be put into that same 50/50 bullshit.

 

[DR2K]

-Give Jann lee hyper armor on any move from his stance

-Make all of helena's commands just frames, no need to keep her so simple.

-Whenever Helena does more then 30% damage, she loses any amount that exceeds it.

-Whenever genfu says suckmydik, the opponent gets put in a unholdable stun where they get on their knees.

-Return bass's corner infinite and allow for a pick up infinite in home. It's okay he had that in 3.1, so he should still have it.

-return high wake up kicks, automatically launch on CH. Except for Helena of course.

-all taunts put in in Tekken Ch state.

-Return Hayabusa projectile from DOAD.

-jann lee loses OH properties on his dragon gunner, but when he lands a dragon gunner he automatically wins the round. Balances it out.

-Heavyweight characters can not be juggled

 

[Brute]

stuff.

Now there's an interesting idea. Out of all the bullshit that can happen in DOA, the whole stupidity around wake up kicks annoys me some of the most. I understand their use (prevent people from entering combos that guaranteed strike a rising opponent) but seeing as hypothetically you're just guessing 33% chance, it's unreasonable not to back off EVERY TIME unless you character has a great ground game.

 

[Roroko]

This is my first DoA, and I'm by no means an expert, but:

HOLD RECOVERY IS TOO SHORT
1. Hold recovery is short because the active frames for holds are short.
2. You counter holds by baiting them, not reacting to them.

CRITICAL BURST THRESHOLD NEEDS TO BE SHORTER
THE GAME NEEDS MORE UNHOLDABLE STUNS
CHARACTERS NEED TO BE SAFER IN GENERAL

Everything you've said basically amounts to: I want guaranteed damage after my first hit.

You want TTT2, not DoA5.

I like unholdable stuns as is because it forces me to be creative and find a way to land them. If every second attack caused unholdable stun, the hold mechanic would be moot.

- Helena needs to be safer.
- Helena needs a better damage output.
- Helena needs a better mix-up game.
- Helena needs more unholdable stuns.
- If Helena had the possibility to sidestep from Bokuho, her evasive game would benefit a lot.
- Helena needs a neutral move to transition to Back-Stance.
- Finally, Helena needs to be able to low throw from Bokuho and Back-Stance.

So basically, you want her to be broken?

 

[TRI Mike]

No, I want her to be DOA4 Helena with DOA5 mechanics.

 

[Prince Adon]

This topic makes my head hurt.

 

[d3v]

Actually, what he's describing is something similar to the E3 builld - a build which many players agree was the best build of DOA5.

 

[Darth Lotonic X]

No, I want her to be DOA4 Helena with DOA5 mechanics.

I really think that they should buff characters that are actually bad.

 

[Raansu]

So, I disagree on just about everything you listed. Not that I'm trying to be a dick, but here's why I feel the way I do:

- HOLD RECOVERY IS TOO SHORT. I'll admit it: I'm sick of people whining about the damn holds being overpowered. If you're being a slower character like Bass or Ryu what exactly do you propose one do when being assaulted by Kokoro's bullfucky attacks strings that cause heavy stun, damage and variety without crossing the threshold (if used by a skilled player)? As long as she switched rapidly between mid and lows (which she can do), you couldn't crush highs, your low crushes would be intercepted (too slow/long) and none of your damn punches could beat hers in speed.

Oh I dunno, side step maybe? SE? Learn how to defend better? The hold will still be available to them. They just wont be stupid short recovery where it can actually reset the damn threshold and can actually hold back to back. If you hold and whiff, the attacker shouldn't have to worry about another hold. At the very least the next attack after a whiffed hold should be guaranteed, or at least just blockable if they SE well enough.

-CRITICAL BURST THRESHOLD NEEDS TO BE SHORTER. Critical burst threshold does not need to be shorter. Maybe with certain characters. But Kasumi has several line-ups that can CB on a fourth strike. While fine in theory, mixed with the power blow system which can wipe out loads of health for simply holding down a button, making CBs too short would totally make PBs OP. "most characters need to land 4-5 strikes in order to achieve it." That's a good thing.

And? PB's can only be used once per round and the option to stop it is still there. It just wont be asinine where you get several chances to stop it. It shouldn't be that way, period. DoA4 has spoiled too many of you players thinking you should be able to escape anything. Prior to DoA4 it was 1-2 launch and there goes half your health. And if you were stupid enough to stand near the wall it was slam launch half your health which was a damn good thing.

-MORE UNHOLDABLE STUNS. Game does not needs more unholdable stuns. Although this was just you reiterating the same point yet again, I felt obliged to object. Yet again.

Yes it does. There are still too many damn situations in the game that are random, ESPECIALLY if you play a character that doesn't have any good tools to work with. There needs to be more unholdable situations, and sit down stuns in general should be inescapable.

- CHARACTERS NEED TO BE SAFER IN GENERAL. Agree and disagree. With your system of nerfing holds to the point of them being nearly useless, combining that with more safe strings would result in matches where characters just whiff out their longest, dumbest, most predictable combo chains at nausea without fear of punishment. Particularly of note are highly delayable combos.
However, as it is certain characters are so safe it's like they're wearing bulletproof vests, whereas others have basically 0 safe moves. There should be a bit more balance imo.

You act like holds having a more strict window would just mean no one would ever use them. It's so damn pathetic. God forbid players have to commit to a hold and fear the outcome. With that said, the option is still there and can still stop a player spamming safe strings. That was one of the main purposes of them in DoA3.1 was to stop frame trap beasts like Jann Lee from throwing out 6pk all day. Characters being safer and holds being more strict isn't going to causes everyone to just spam attacks (maybe lesser skilled players but that's about it). It will encourage people to play a better neutral game and respect their opponents more and think twice before they just throw out random strings.

 

[TRI Mike]

The issue with players like Brute is that they're too used to the DOA4 system to the point of thinking it's actually good. While I don't hate DOA4 I admit it did too many things wrong. That game made people used to having multiple chances to escape from any situation. Kokoro and Rig can somewhat ignore those just like Bass and sometimes Leifang but the rest of the cast still plays that random stun game.

One of the things that happens a lot to me is that I tend to try to CB and land too many unholdable stuns. Since many players simply have little to no option to these (Tina, Helena) I get held randomly too much and lose rounds where my opponent just held in stuns and got them right.

Notice that I'm not asking to remove hold-in-stuns entirely. In the article, I mention that would require for the entire stun system to be remade. I'm fine with players holding out of "some" stuns, but if they're gonna do it, make the recovery big enough to give the attacker a realistic chance to see the animation and react to it accordingly.

Also, anyone who thinks I want Helena to be OP didn't play DOA4 or never understood what she had in that game. Members like DrDogg, DR2K and me have been saying this since she was revealed. Helena is the ONLY CHARACTER in the game that actually lost tools compared to her DOA4 version and didn't get enough things to take advantage of the DOA5 system. Every other character is either a much better version of his/her DOA4 self (Tina, Jann Lee) or simply works in a much better but different way (Bass, Kokoro).

I don't want to get everything guaranteed after the first hit. That'd make this a 3D version of UMVC3 with tits and I don't want that. I'm fine with the defender having some options to escape and regain the offensive. But as of today, I still feel the defender is almost always at the advantage.

 

[Kayin Amoh]

Fully agree that Tina needs buffed. She's fine against moderate speed characters who block, but against faster characters with good mixups like Kokoro, Ayane or Jann it's too easy for her to be beaten out every time and juggled for good damage. Since she's going to have trouble poking them into counter holds - on account of getting smacked in the face - her greatest strength is neutralised. Holds being weakened already means that her ability to counter out of trouble is already severely diminished.

She's no Wolf, Goh or El Blaze when it comes to setting up throw opportunities, that's for sure.

Some of the other suggestions would definitely have consequences, however. Weakening holds further would simply benefit people who never stop attacking. Perhaps having class specific hold strengths might help balance it out - strikers having shorter, weaker holds in comparison to grapplers perhaps. Or my favourite thought so far, where getting smacked during a counter attempt *from stun* would put you straight into critical burst status.

Could be awful when implemented, but it would save everyone spamming counters in the hopes of getting lucky.

Also, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum - I feel the aggressor's got the advantage due to the stun game. That said though, you should send this list to Team Ninja. They're after feedback, and this is definitely feedback that you've thought through even if it might change the game against someone else's balancing preferences.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

I do think TRI has some good points -- aside from the make this character better comments. I don't agree with the solutions however. Low holds are a pain to deal with, as some set-ups require rapid execution of moves to achieve the desired effect. I don't feel frame data alone is the answer. I don't need longer recovery. Maybe just a few unholdable frames early on, on the stunning attack would suffice. Holding from stun is essential, but maybe instead of an attack, the defender would do an avoidance type maneuver, i.e. bob or weave high attacks, mini-hop low attacks, and slip or roll away from mids. This would preserve the triangle system as a concept, while making the attacker not feel as if they're being punished for stunning their opponent.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

Instead of looking for TN to change the frame data -- yet again -- let's advance the new systems incorporated into DOA 5. People want changes others don't want -- that's natural. TN could easily expand on low hold punishment and unholdable stuns in one fell swoop, by making a few -- and I mean, a few -- mids cause a sit-down stun on a crouching or counter-hit crouching opponent. The consequence of being hit with a guaranteed juggle will deter low hold spams.

Also, if a single jab didn't cause 30 frames of stun on a stunned opponent, and come out in 10 frames, maybe people wouldn't fear for their life(bar) and spam low hold.

 

[Brute]

Helena is the ONLY CHARACTER in the game that actually lost tools compared to her DOA4 version and didn't get enough things to take advantage of the DOA5 system. Every other character is either a much better version of his/her DOA4 self (Tina, Jann Lee) or simply works in a much better but different way (Bass, Kokoro).

Um, Ryu? Yeah, he's got some new tricks, but I'd take his speed and aggression in DOA4 over his airgrab in 5 any day.
He lost a good deal more than he gained, imo.

 

[P1naatt1ke1tt0]

I disagree with TRI Mike and agree with Brute. The game is just fine, needs only minor tweaks in character balance. Definately no guaranteed damage after a parry. Come on that would effectively make the parry a super-powered counter, there's a reason parries give minimal damage.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

-HELENA I don't main Helena, so take this for what it is, but frame data isn't everything. Keep in mind a lot of her combos leave her in her crush stance, so fast jabs that would normally punish her after a risky combo may be ineffective. While one could low throw, Helena can then attack again rapidly to counter-act it. I've seen players use Helena brilliantly. She doesn't really need any buffs or nerfs in my experience.

Her combo's that leave her in "crush stance" also known as BKO leave her at -4 but it takes her another 11 frame to cancel from stance and block, and her fastest attack from BKO is 12 frames so if she tries to block she can be punished by 14 frame attacks and if she attacks she can be beaten out by 15 frame attacks. Why bother trying to throw her when every character can punish her with a low attack or beat her out with a mid attack? So her transitions are useless unless you are playing someone who has no idea about Helena.

She is at heavy negative frames no matter what attacks she uses. She has only one safe string that goes high, mid, high and only has one guard crush string, from back turned PPK, which goes high, high, high. Luckily she can't get into BT without being throw punished so if you are playing someone who doesn't suck at punishing you will never get to use it.

She has an 11 frame jab so she can't deal with characters with 11 frame mid's, her fastest mid (3P 12 frames) hit's higher than most jabs so it gets crushed by everything.

The only way Helena players win is by making great reads and constantly keeping their opponent stunned. I read a few of your posts, you have said that Busa needs some improvements. Well Helena is Busa minus his guard crushes, his ranged tools and damage output. He is the same speed as her and he can crush just as well as she can.

I won't bag on you too hard, as you said you don't main Helena or probably even play her. But I just debunked everything you just said so I'd reconsider your position on saying Helena doesn't need any buff's. Even Lisa can build momentum against defensive players having tons of guard crushes and safe stance transitions. Being punishable on everything she does stops her from having any real pressure. Without good pokes she struggles to get her momentum started and without that she is fucked.

Just remember that Busa and Helena are about the same speed. Without safe transition into his ninpo (don't know the new name) and his guard crushes how would you build momentum? Cause that is exactly where Helena is right now.

 

[Awesmic]

Christie's 4k2kpp string... why does it even exist if the final hit doesn't even wall splat? It was good to use on certain heavier weight classes.

That's really my only legit complaint. Otherwise, I am content with the gameplay as it is. If the top players have solutions to making it better, then more power to 'em.