Petition to get DOA5LR cutscenes running at 60fps
- Thread starter squarewindow
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I just don't understand how the old games were able to handle these scenes at 60 and all of a sudden in 2012 DOA5 can't. If they're applying graphical effects which mean the framerate can't get above 30 then something's wrong, in my opinion. The old games never needed this.
Not a real expert on this, but there might be several reasons: Since DoA3 all games were made exclusively for Microsoft consoles. As we know, console exclusive games usually look the best, because they are tailored, to make the best out of the strengths and weaknesses of just one system. In the case of DOA5, the game was multi-platform though and being multi-platform, the graphical abilities of a game have to meet at the lowest common denominator of both systems. But not only was DOA5 multi-platform, the PS3 was even the lead development platform this time. At that time, Team Ninja might not have been able to fully exhaust the PS3's power. The PS3 was also quite notorious, for being hard to develop for. Last but not least, the new, more realistic art style is much more demanding than the anime art style, that the other games used. Alone the textures of the characters had to be of much higher detail and resolution (you can even see the skin pores, if you zoom in on faces) and multiple shaders were added on top of that, to make the models look even more 3-dimensional and better illuminated. On top of that, self shadowing was added to the models, as was dirt and sweat. This was completely absent from DOA4. Advanced textures and shaders are very demanding, even more than higher numbers of polygons. Yeah, there's actually a lot of reasons, why DOA5 doesn't perfom as well or isn't as graphically polished as other games of the series and there are probably many more, that I haven't thought of. Another reason might be simple constraint of resources and time...
Woah, this post was a bitch to write, with all these technical terms. English isn't my first language, if you haven't guessed already...
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I've got a lot of worries, and this for me just isn't one of them.
d3v
Well-Known Member
As has been stated many times, many devs these days feel that 30fps makes cinematics look better or more like movies. At times, this is even done even though there's nothing that's technically keeping them from running the cinematics at 60fps. More importantly, you actually have some gamers who agree with this (which is why you have things like The Last of Us Remastered having a 30fps setting for "purists").
Corvo792
Member
Seriously. I couldn't care less about this.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Can we not pretend it was an artistic choice?
No DOA game ever ran at 30 fps before, for any reason. They had to slow it down in 5 because the intro models have higher resolution textures than the ones you actually control.
When the current gen version went into development, they didn't consider it a high priority to change the artificial cap they stuck on. That's the reason it is what it is. Anyone saying anything to the contrary is just covering their ass.
Let's accept the actual truth, deal with it, and move on. I can almost guarantee that stupid cap will be lifted the next time they work on a project that actually has a sizable development window.
No DOA game ever ran at 30 fps before, for any reason. They had to slow it down in 5 because the intro models have higher resolution textures than the ones you actually control.
When the current gen version went into development, they didn't consider it a high priority to change the artificial cap they stuck on. That's the reason it is what it is. Anyone saying anything to the contrary is just covering their ass.
Let's accept the actual truth, deal with it, and move on. I can almost guarantee that stupid cap will be lifted the next time they work on a project that actually has a sizable development window.
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Thanks, Rikuto. It's so reassuring when I get responses that align with my point of view as it makes me feel that I might not be living in the Bizarro World after all.
Some good comments from the people who have signed the petition:
"Bravo! I think the gameplay would feel more cohesive as a whole if both the intros and fights ran at the same speed. VF5 has this, and it looks fantastic because of it. I am a huge fan of games like DOA, VF and Tekken."
"If a game is being advertised as 1080p 60fps then the WHOLE game should be 60 fps. That includes intros and wins/lose poses."
"There should not be any game at any time running 30fps on next gen consoles."
Keep up the honourable fight!!!!!
Some good comments from the people who have signed the petition:
"Bravo! I think the gameplay would feel more cohesive as a whole if both the intros and fights ran at the same speed. VF5 has this, and it looks fantastic because of it. I am a huge fan of games like DOA, VF and Tekken."
"If a game is being advertised as 1080p 60fps then the WHOLE game should be 60 fps. That includes intros and wins/lose poses."
"There should not be any game at any time running 30fps on next gen consoles."
Keep up the honourable fight!!!!!
@squarewindow, dear God, were you annoying during that stream! >__>' You are way too obsessed with this. WAY too obsessed!
Hey, I make no apologies for this. There is no excuse for this laziness.
d3v
Well-Known Member
Do we actually have any proof of this? Because all the evidence we have so far says otherwise.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
It's been inquired about previously, and in person.
Remember you're dealing with a Japanese development studio. The public answer you get is usually the convenient positive answer which is used to save face, not necessarily the real one.
Have Grap3 pick the game apart if you really want to find out the truth. He's probably got more than enough time on his hands.
I imagine there are some LOD tricks being used when in spectator/screenshot mode.
Remember you're dealing with a Japanese development studio. The public answer you get is usually the convenient positive answer which is used to save face, not necessarily the real one.
Have Grap3 pick the game apart if you really want to find out the truth. He's probably got more than enough time on his hands.
I imagine there are some LOD tricks being used when in spectator/screenshot mode.
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Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Actually I just found the smoking gun which shows im right about it. It IS an LOD trick.
I've got a replay of Leon vs Mila and at one specific segmant when Mila is launched into the air and zoomed in on during specator mode, the frame rate absolutely slows to a crawl when trying to pan the camera around her.
So there is definitely LOD trickery going on, or this could never happen. Interestingly nothing really happens with Leon, just further showcasing that they put more detail into the female fighters. (big surprise, right?)
Here's another observation you can make. Look at the background brick wall at the top of lorelei, fully zoomed out. Then zoom in. Looks worse, right? The closer you get to any texture in any game, the worst it looks. That's just the nature of textures. However the OPPOSITE is true when it comes to the fighters in this game. You get closer, they look better instead of worse. Except for the male bodies, which actually do look worse up close. The LOD tricks seem to apply mostly to their faces and not their bodies, though there might be some exceptions. Leon certainly isn't one of them.
So, how do I take this replay and show it to the rest of you as evidence... there's the question... hmmm..
I've got a replay of Leon vs Mila and at one specific segmant when Mila is launched into the air and zoomed in on during specator mode, the frame rate absolutely slows to a crawl when trying to pan the camera around her.
So there is definitely LOD trickery going on, or this could never happen. Interestingly nothing really happens with Leon, just further showcasing that they put more detail into the female fighters. (big surprise, right?)
Here's another observation you can make. Look at the background brick wall at the top of lorelei, fully zoomed out. Then zoom in. Looks worse, right? The closer you get to any texture in any game, the worst it looks. That's just the nature of textures. However the OPPOSITE is true when it comes to the fighters in this game. You get closer, they look better instead of worse. Except for the male bodies, which actually do look worse up close. The LOD tricks seem to apply mostly to their faces and not their bodies, though there might be some exceptions. Leon certainly isn't one of them.
So, how do I take this replay and show it to the rest of you as evidence... there's the question... hmmm..
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Chapstick
Well-Known Member
I hope I word this well enough for it to make sense
There's that glitch when you end a round with a timeout during the slowmo part of a PB that @DestructionBomb brought to everyone's attention and I triggered it in a fight with Alpha vs Alpha. I had them rotate around each other repeatedly to make like a mixed color light cloud thing to see what it would look like and it heavily dropped the framerate since all the effect textures were popping up on the screen but not disappearing. Going into spectator to look at the replay, moving the camera close to the "light cloud" (idk what else to call it) the framerate dropped to like 10fps and moving away made it smooth again. Doing 9PK~9PK~9PK~etc on a guarding opponent with Kasumi also made the framerate drop with all the petals and transparent bodies appearing onscreen
Quick changes in texture quality cause the framerate to go higher further away from this stuff?
There's that glitch when you end a round with a timeout during the slowmo part of a PB that @DestructionBomb brought to everyone's attention and I triggered it in a fight with Alpha vs Alpha. I had them rotate around each other repeatedly to make like a mixed color light cloud thing to see what it would look like and it heavily dropped the framerate since all the effect textures were popping up on the screen but not disappearing. Going into spectator to look at the replay, moving the camera close to the "light cloud" (idk what else to call it) the framerate dropped to like 10fps and moving away made it smooth again. Doing 9PK~9PK~9PK~etc on a guarding opponent with Kasumi also made the framerate drop with all the petals and transparent bodies appearing onscreen
Quick changes in texture quality cause the framerate to go higher further away from this stuff?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
If you're familiar with LOD (level of detail) it makes sense.
What you have is textures that are all loaded into the game and put into memory at varying degrees of detail. When you get closer to a character like Kasumi or Mila, the detail and resolution of those textures are replaced with better, more resource demanding ones. If the game is coded well, it is seamless and you never notice it. Hence, LOD trickery.
So it's likely we're using the same models as during the intros, but when the camera is zoomed in as close as it is during the intro it uses the highest resolution textures possible. Team Ninja knows this can potentially cause the game to stutter, so they capped it at a lower frame rate to get it a "cinematic" look instead of an inconsistent look.
Some characters and outfits probably don't result in a frame rate loss, such as Leon. But on the female characters, Team Ninja knew that people would be taking tons and tons of screenshots and doing whatever with the camera so they shipped the game with higher resolution textures for those models up close.
So getting closer to a resource-intensive character = lower frame rate.
Farther away = higher frame rate.
When you increase the complexity of the situation by doing crazy effects, then of course thats going to put additional load on the system.
Does that make sense?
What you have is textures that are all loaded into the game and put into memory at varying degrees of detail. When you get closer to a character like Kasumi or Mila, the detail and resolution of those textures are replaced with better, more resource demanding ones. If the game is coded well, it is seamless and you never notice it. Hence, LOD trickery.
So it's likely we're using the same models as during the intros, but when the camera is zoomed in as close as it is during the intro it uses the highest resolution textures possible. Team Ninja knows this can potentially cause the game to stutter, so they capped it at a lower frame rate to get it a "cinematic" look instead of an inconsistent look.
Some characters and outfits probably don't result in a frame rate loss, such as Leon. But on the female characters, Team Ninja knew that people would be taking tons and tons of screenshots and doing whatever with the camera so they shipped the game with higher resolution textures for those models up close.
So getting closer to a resource-intensive character = lower frame rate.
Farther away = higher frame rate.
When you increase the complexity of the situation by doing crazy effects, then of course thats going to put additional load on the system.
Does that make sense?