"Promise me, you won't tell anyone" Honoka General Discussion
- Thread starter Jyakotu
- Start date
FreeStepDutch
Member
at least lol , Ayane can just push buttons like a monkey and she will probably win, she beats everything. I think I only do well against Mila and few more.
I think I'm going to try some other chars instead of her, I give up, hopefully TK will buff her a lot in upcoming patches, really needs to give her better tools for mid low mix ups, and her reach and priority is a joke, and she's ridiculously unsafe is so many situations, and her damage... I'm tired of working twice as hard to win with her than with Helena or many other chars.
Last edited:
Match up is favorable for Ayane but definitely not a 8-2.
In regards to Honoka, let me know give a general overview of this character because I actually play her, and pretty well.
i9 jab
i11 6P/i12 6K
i13 2P that's +0 on neutral hit
Great neutral strike speed already, this is one reason why this character is good. The downside though is that her limbs are short, but that is exactly why she has this kind of strike speed, to make up for her shorter limbs. If she possessed an i10 jab and i12 mids (not i11) with these short limbs, she'd be pretty bad. But that is the balance.
Her jab strings are pretty straight forward;
PPPK is full blown tracking for a +1
PP6P is -7 and is a good string to put on people looking to disrespect the PPPK since PPP are all highs.
PP2K is best used with her 6T wall pressure and can be utilized in the Critical Stun Threshold. This string is bad during the neutral otherwise since it's so slow (very react-able and can be interrupted).
PK is -7 but honestly this is a lot better during threshold and footsies.
Let me explain how Honoka players should approach CQC (close quarters combat) neutral with this character. You do not want to put strings on block as Honoka so often, you are going to be in a bad position if you do, as many of you like to point out. If you are doing so then you are playing her incorrectly.
Jab free cancel jab/6P/6K/2P/6T is very good as Honoka, jab is only -2 on neutral hit and block. Jab FC (Free cancel) mix up can also open the opponent up because no one likes sitting on block being poked at all day long. Jab and 2P are good for this with her. This in conjunction with PP FC or delay into PP6P or PPPK make the CQC poking potent. With occasional 6P or 6K for counter hit fishing.
To further this, good conditioning on block with the pokes and 6T can even allow Honoka to put a 46P or 8H+K on block for pressure (remember I said good conditioning on block).
6T is her best throw, hands down. You are at +8 and you get a free mix up. Things like 46P, 8H+K, 4K, H+K, 214P+K and 4H+K all become a real threat with the +8, do the math. Your already fast strikes are faster, punch grab becomes incredibly scary here.
When you put someone into the wall with 6T, you have the world at your disposal, Honoka becomes a monster from here. PPPK, PP6P, PP2K, and PP FC 6T/4K all become really viable as a mix up. Jab (whiff) into 214P+K, 46P, 8H+K, 7P, 4K, 66K, 4H+K, and 1P+K (when PB is active) all become a great mix up.
When you are playing the range game on approach, Honoka can do it, but she is not the best at it. But it's good to be aware of what your options are. But relying on things like running K, running H+K and running P+K are not going to get you anywhere against players who have formidable spacing and footsie ability.
4K is a very good footsie poke and frame trap on block and hit (-1 on block but against characters with an i10 jab and i12 or slower mid, it's a frame trap). 3H+K is safe at -3, and a frame trap at it's furthest range at +0 on block. 1P can be used as a reactionary option when you read the opponent right.
236P is going to be your primary whiff punisher alongside 3H+K, but 66P can be used the same way. As mentioned earlier above, PK can be used as a short range poke. Here is my advice for those struggling during spacing as Honoka.
As someone who is excelling with his spacing and footsies (because I've practiced that a lot and still do), you have to have good footsie ability, you have to know how and when to approach, and what buttons to do it with because Honoka has only a few. Not everyone you play is going to let you run in all balls to the wall or do a running T, you need to really learn your buttons for the neutral game. Another reason why Honoka can play a range and footsie based game is simply because her walk speed is amazing. That is also another reason for her balancing, short limbs but great walk speed balances out her other lack of stronger range tools. Learn to utilize her walk speed.
You don't want to do any moves that stance transition on block, that is not what those moves are for, they leave you in unsafe positions if you do. Don't expect to move forward with 66P+K, 8P or 6H+K on a blocking opponent. They are intended for threshold mix up.
Honoka becomes a very effective character if the player has a good neutral game, otherwise it is really easy to become lost on how to open your opponent up if you are expecting to do moves that change stance on block.
Honoka is a character that requires a good neutral game and the ability to perform a moderately good mix up with what she has, because she actually has a lot for that. And her damage is actually solid. She has good mix up for stun launch and her mix up for higher damage is very good as well. She doesn't need any buffs, her players just need to improve and grow more comfortable playing this character.
In regards to Honoka, let me know give a general overview of this character because I actually play her, and pretty well.
i9 jab
i11 6P/i12 6K
i13 2P that's +0 on neutral hit
Great neutral strike speed already, this is one reason why this character is good. The downside though is that her limbs are short, but that is exactly why she has this kind of strike speed, to make up for her shorter limbs. If she possessed an i10 jab and i12 mids (not i11) with these short limbs, she'd be pretty bad. But that is the balance.
Her jab strings are pretty straight forward;
PPPK is full blown tracking for a +1
PP6P is -7 and is a good string to put on people looking to disrespect the PPPK since PPP are all highs.
PP2K is best used with her 6T wall pressure and can be utilized in the Critical Stun Threshold. This string is bad during the neutral otherwise since it's so slow (very react-able and can be interrupted).
PK is -7 but honestly this is a lot better during threshold and footsies.
Let me explain how Honoka players should approach CQC (close quarters combat) neutral with this character. You do not want to put strings on block as Honoka so often, you are going to be in a bad position if you do, as many of you like to point out. If you are doing so then you are playing her incorrectly.
Jab free cancel jab/6P/6K/2P/6T is very good as Honoka, jab is only -2 on neutral hit and block. Jab FC (Free cancel) mix up can also open the opponent up because no one likes sitting on block being poked at all day long. Jab and 2P are good for this with her. This in conjunction with PP FC or delay into PP6P or PPPK make the CQC poking potent. With occasional 6P or 6K for counter hit fishing.
To further this, good conditioning on block with the pokes and 6T can even allow Honoka to put a 46P or 8H+K on block for pressure (remember I said good conditioning on block).
6T is her best throw, hands down. You are at +8 and you get a free mix up. Things like 46P, 8H+K, 4K, H+K, 214P+K and 4H+K all become a real threat with the +8, do the math. Your already fast strikes are faster, punch grab becomes incredibly scary here.
When you put someone into the wall with 6T, you have the world at your disposal, Honoka becomes a monster from here. PPPK, PP6P, PP2K, and PP FC 6T/4K all become really viable as a mix up. Jab (whiff) into 214P+K, 46P, 8H+K, 7P, 4K, 66K, 4H+K, and 1P+K (when PB is active) all become a great mix up.
When you are playing the range game on approach, Honoka can do it, but she is not the best at it. But it's good to be aware of what your options are. But relying on things like running K, running H+K and running P+K are not going to get you anywhere against players who have formidable spacing and footsie ability.
4K is a very good footsie poke and frame trap on block and hit (-1 on block but against characters with an i10 jab and i12 or slower mid, it's a frame trap). 3H+K is safe at -3, and a frame trap at it's furthest range at +0 on block. 1P can be used as a reactionary option when you read the opponent right.
236P is going to be your primary whiff punisher alongside 3H+K, but 66P can be used the same way. As mentioned earlier above, PK can be used as a short range poke. Here is my advice for those struggling during spacing as Honoka.
As someone who is excelling with his spacing and footsies (because I've practiced that a lot and still do), you have to have good footsie ability, you have to know how and when to approach, and what buttons to do it with because Honoka has only a few. Not everyone you play is going to let you run in all balls to the wall or do a running T, you need to really learn your buttons for the neutral game. Another reason why Honoka can play a range and footsie based game is simply because her walk speed is amazing. That is also another reason for her balancing, short limbs but great walk speed balances out her other lack of stronger range tools. Learn to utilize her walk speed.
You don't want to do any moves that stance transition on block, that is not what those moves are for, they leave you in unsafe positions if you do. Don't expect to move forward with 66P+K, 8P or 6H+K on a blocking opponent. They are intended for threshold mix up.
Honoka becomes a very effective character if the player has a good neutral game, otherwise it is really easy to become lost on how to open your opponent up if you are expecting to do moves that change stance on block.
Honoka is a character that requires a good neutral game and the ability to perform a moderately good mix up with what she has, because she actually has a lot for that. And her damage is actually solid. She has good mix up for stun launch and her mix up for higher damage is very good as well. She doesn't need any buffs, her players just need to improve and grow more comfortable playing this character.
Last edited:
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
It's interesting you mention 8P here. What is your opinion on it as a whiff punisher? I've gotten some mileage out of it using it like that in the neutral rather than a straight up poking tool.
8P is actually fine as whiff punishment, I've used it as that a few times well. But I mentioned it not being a neutral poke tool since it puts Honoka in a bad spot.
As for videos, I'll be streaming later today on my twitch channel.
As for videos, I'll be streaming later today on my twitch channel.
FreeStepDutch
Member
Wow what a difference a great piece of advice can make, thanks Shinobi. I put some of those things to the test and I got eight victories in a row yay!http://m.imgur.com/5Q8yFsW I'm not used to FCing pp so I got some unwanted strings here and there, mostly getting ppk instead of pp6k and so on, but finally I feel I'm getting somewhere with her.
Talking about spacing and movement, can anyone point me in the good direction for advanced movement in doa5? I've tried Korean backdashing and stuff like that, but whenever I watch high level matches I see them moving in an incredible flow from backward to forward to sidestepping, and I don't know how to do that.
And another incredibly newbie question, sometimes when I have them on red stun threshold ready for CB, they seem to sidestep and get out of it, however if I set up the training dummy for very fast scape it doesn't recover, so I don't know what's happening there, any help?
Talking about spacing and movement, can anyone point me in the good direction for advanced movement in doa5? I've tried Korean backdashing and stuff like that, but whenever I watch high level matches I see them moving in an incredible flow from backward to forward to sidestepping, and I don't know how to do that.
And another incredibly newbie question, sometimes when I have them on red stun threshold ready for CB, they seem to sidestep and get out of it, however if I set up the training dummy for very fast scape it doesn't recover, so I don't know what's happening there, any help?
I have a thread here that talks about footsies and spacing; http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/homework-time-footsies-and-spacing-101.4522/
As far as players being adept in movement, it just comes from practicing the game's movement.
Opponents may be stagger escaping and it depends on what strike you used because every strike has varying hit advantage in the Critical Stun Threshold.
FreeStepDutch
Member
Thanks, I'll check that thread.
FreeStepDutch
Member
iHajinShinobi, are you going to stream today? I've checked your twitch channel and you were testing an hour ago, any ETA?
Yeah I'm streaming right now.
FreeStepDutch
Member
Yeah ive been watching you beating that poor Hayate over and over, great matches
Yeah lol, today was just me breaking in the ice for my own channel. I'll be streaming again on Wednesday.
Leeloo
Member
I'm feeling like this right now. It always feels like an uphill battle using Honoka..
I'll probably do a mini-tutorial on stream Wednesday or Friday this week for Honoka and Momiji, for anyone interested.
FreeStepDutch
Member
Can't wait!
FreeStepDutch
Member
I suggest you follow iHajinShinobi post about how to play her to the letter. I'm not a big fan of this kind of offensive since you have to be very agressive and free cancel constantly to mix things quite fast, something I'm not used to, still after trying some of the things mentioned here, it's by far the best way to play Honoka, and I can tell you I have tried almost every other approach. With this I'm doing a lot better, far from easy wins but most of my matches are surmountable or at least I'm close to winning, but I've still a ton of bad habits that I'm trying to fix.
Check his stream from yesterday here: http://www.twitch.tv/hajinshinobi/b/640701467 It will show you how to best fight with her.
Leeloo
Member
Thanks!
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Maybe I should check the stream first lol, but, I really have trouble with her against the likes of Christie and Helena. Their evasiveness is a nightmare for Honoka's short limbs lol. And I thought Leifang had crappy range. Honoka is on a whole other level.
Leeloo
Member
lol this so much