Requested Changelist: DOA5 - The Vote

[AKNova7]

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Hey everybody. I'm sure you already know what's going on with this thread, and if not, you can probably figure it out by the title. Please vote fast, and the votes are public, and being used as signatures for the thread. Feel free to post your comments to go along with your vote and/or discuss, but remember to cast your votes! The more people who vote, the better our game will get one way or another, please everyone vote that can.​

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Requested Changelist: DOA5​

1. The game requires more poke moves. While negative on block, or positive on block (preferably positive on block if the movement supports it,) the game needs more moves that are safe on punishment on block.

Solution: Either (ONE of the following options)

A) Add more moves to the game that are +0 to -4 on block, to encourage movement of some kind instead of just countering stuff.

B) Add poke moves to the game that are positive on block slightly (+1 - +2) to encourage landing pokes into offense instead of just string delays.

Since you introduced the Virtua Fighter characters into the game, this makes a lot of sense, because both options are used in Virtua Fighter, the difference would be that there are varying levels of punishment in DOA depending on how much of a risk one takes.


2. String Delay is, while an interesting mechanic, near impossible to methodically deal with at any level. And while, at this point, it's hard to remove, part of the largest pain is the combination of string delay and free canceling together. Both these things combined not only make it hard to play logical defense, but also hampers transitioning to offense as well, considering the incredible duration moves can be delayed for.

Solution: Either (ONE of the following options)

A) Reduce the amount of time in general characters have to delay attacks, and make free canceling slower.

B) Adjust the frame data so if moves are delayed at all, they're unsafe on block, and make free canceling slower.

C) Adjust the frame data so if moves are delayed at all, they're negative on hit (so people can't follow up with anything else) and disallow stuns and combos from delayed moves (because with the window there is, it's almost impossible to react to these at a competitive level).


3. Arcade Stick Compatibility Issues per Consolidated Feedback

A) There are features in the demo that require the Right Analog Stick. Some arcade sticks do not have a Right Analog Stick, making these features difficult or impossible to use. Please provide other ways to access these features.

B) Some other fighting games require the use of specific buttons for various features (text chat in Soul Calibur 5 is done by pressing L1). Some arcade stick owners only have 6-button sticks, or remove the last two buttons from their 8-button sticks. This makes it difficult/impossible to use features like this. Please allow players to change the button config of options like this.


4. The Low Hold

The low hold is an anomaly, and one of the worst things to happen recently to DOA. The low hold is a move that holds low moves and dodges high moves, essentially a 0 frame 2 in one.
Solution: Either (ONE of the following options)

A) Have the character lean slightly forward, and extend their hands downward, both palms up, with the hand placement being around the knee. This would be considered a standing movement, because they're just barely still in level to be hit by highs.

B) Have the same low animation, but have it not be considered a tech crouch.

We prefer solution A), but, even though ugly, if it's impossible to change the animation at this point, B) would be a solid alternative.


5. Wake-Up Kick: Issues per Consolidated Feedback

Decrease the hitbox and remove stun from Wakeup kicks. All wakeup kicks should be unsafe or disadvantage on block. Refine ability to sidestep, duck, or hop over with the right moves. (IE: Making the wake-up mid kick side-steppable.)


6. Blocking Low Issues per Consolidated Feedback

It seems as though there's a delay in blocking low. When I try to block low, I get hit. When I try to counter low and I'm late, I get a block instead. If blocking low is not instant, that definitely needs to be changed.


7. The Hold System

Assuming that #4: The Low Hold, is successfully followed, we now have to deal with holds in general. What would be best for them, assuming the low hold didn't duck highs, would be for hold recovery and active frames to be universal. Our thoughts of holds have been anywhere from:

0 Frame Start-Up, 17 active frames, 23 recovery frames

All the way to...

0 Frame Start-Up, 12 active frames, 28 recovery frames.

Solution: Somewhere in the middle would probably be good, so, somewhere along the lines of...

0 Frame Start-Up, 14 active frames, 26 recovery frames.

Of course, all this depends on what is deemed to be the best balance for the game, so while this is the players general consensus, anywhere in between that would be a good thing, but preferably towards the middle is the best place of compromise.


8. (Bonus): The Stun System

While it is not practical to do at this time in the game development, possibly for a patch, or the next Dead or Alive game, assuming it is made, there has been massive support for a complete overhaul of the stun system. The fact that getting stuns is as easy as drawing counter-hits advocates a system where the entire game becomes very hard to use logic to defeat an enemy.

Our request is that for future iterations of DOA (not necessarily 5), the stun system gets reworked, so getting stuns is all about using the right moves, and countering in stuns is removed. To compensate for this, the juggles would be reworked and adjusted in damage as necessary. What we want is a DOA where you can actually play somewhat of a traditional fighting game, but that the game can also be played in many, many ways.

Stunning on Counter-Blow/Hit regarding almost everything, having no presence on most normal hits, and being able to delay every string and cancel out of every string without warning, many things being very punishable on block, being able to hold out of stun combos, all these things make this game so very hard to play with any fundamentals. We don't want a game that is fundamental dominant, per say, but we'd at least like to every so often be able to use a fundamental or two to help fight the opponent.

Consider us well, Team Ninja.

- FreeStepDodge

 

[Batcommander]

I am very anti low hold two-in-one. I hope that it is not too late to address that.

 

[AKNova7]

I am very anti low hold two-in-one. I hope that it is not too late to address that.

If it was my game, I'd make it ugly at first then add a patch to address the animation when the first patch was completed.

 

[Berzerk!]

I think a lot of this could be boiled right down to "more safe moves" and "every character needs to have a few reliable moves to use to lead to CB on 3rd-4th hit only"
That will be enough, based on what they have already built, to ensure the game is good.

To avoid looking foolish, take out the feedback on the stun system. It's not going to happen in this game, not in a patch, not at all. You're asking for it to be a completely different game. Lets look to refine and enjoy what we have.

To go through the list;

Poke moves eg more Safe on block moves is fine

String delay, I don't even agree with it being a problem wholly, but the presentation here is that its "hard to deal with" which doesn't say much for or against. It's supposed to make things a little harder to deal with for the defender, when used correctly. Worst, you've got this section blended/muddled with free cancelling which is related (as all mechanics are), but separate.
Its probably best to leave this out. It's going to need testing with the new CB system to see if its considered a problem. I'd say it's a bonus. You want to be able to land a counter hit and go for your CB.
Delay works with the system they have. Asking for more safe moves tightens things up and requires less delayable moves to be utilised, so get your first request and see how it plays out.
Free cancelling should not be slowed down, you're asking to break the system by making the game sluggish to play. Look at VF with its fluidity and you can guard cancel so much, including to make harder combos. Nope, this whole section is misguided.

Arcade stick compatibility is a very specific piece of feedback and something they can address, good stuff

Low hold - Too late to change animations, might be silly to suggest this. Patches can tweak frame data, and increasing the recovery on low hold is the practical solution.

Wakeup kicks - agree

Blocking low - suggestion seems fine

Hold system - make this one point with Low hold and summarise that recovery should increase especially for low hold. One of the most tweakable things for TN, worth monitoring for sure. The frames seem fine at this stage, so long as damage remains low we're fine.

That brings us back to the stun system bit, which is where you'll lose them. Keep it sharp and simple.

 

[AKNova7]

Need more votes guys, regardless of your opinion. Please vote. Thanks.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

There should be a poll saying I agree with "some" issues and not all.

- String delay is NOT a problem, its an offensive tool.
- Low hold animations are much better than what they used to be in previous DOAs and they look clear enough. and having them go under HIGHs is part of their use. I disagree with the change request.
- Pokes as they are in the current build are more than fine.. that's the whole point of having the string delay and free canceling which you people don't seem to understand. These same factors play exactly the same in VF and contrary to what people think there are a shit ton of delayable strings and some characters have almost all their strings delayable and the game plays absolutely solid. In addition, in the latest build there are quite a few "safe" moves now so this issue was resolved.
- The holds in the Alpha build have the perfect active frames and recovery in and out of stun. unfortunately from what Grape has said this has been reduced from 35 frames total to 30... The properties of the frames and total frames should be returned back to ALPHA build status. The recovery is MORE than enough and the active frames in stun are low enough allowing major punish. Any more recovery to that would be stupid.
- Disagree with sidesteppable wakeup kicks. they should remain circular as they are in VF. and I disagree with making them more punishable on block. Theres 2 options, MID and LOW .. if you know where to BLOCK then you know where to HOLD. Again, that's the damn point! I also disagree with reducing the hitbox because as they are now they are quite punishable.. and if you fuck up with the punish, the waking up player should be rewarded. if you don't like it .. step back and avoid the mixup and go for a whiff punish.
- I never had an issue with delayed low blocking so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about and its fine as is.
- As for reworking stun system, just NO. The current DOA5 stun system plays great with keeping the feel of the old and introducing new guaranteed elements while still remaining unique to DOA. this should not change ...

- Finally, please do not quote all of freestepdodge because I don't think this is representative of all the community.

It seems to me that some people like the NAMCO style of 3D games "Tekken" and "Soul Calibur", with little to no string delay, single hitconfirm into long ass combos. and pokes like 2d games. and the ability to throw someone in stun. On the other hand, others like the SEGA/TECMO style of 3D with a triangle system, delayable strings, free/guard canceling, minimal guaranteed situations, and lots of 50/50s. The more I see the arguments, the clearer this distinction between the two schools of thought appears to me.

However, I acknowledge all the changes Team Ninja did to DOA5 so far and they have really thought well to improve the system with taking most of their inspiration from DOA's sister series VF, and this is how it always should be. My only major issue is the re-reduction of the hold recovery and I hope they return them back to DOA5 alpha demo status.

 

[Raansu]

There should be a poll saying I agree with "some" issues and not all.

- String delay is NOT a problem, its an offensive tool.
They are a problem
- Low hold animations are much better than what they used to be in previous DOAs and they look clear enough. and having them go under HIGHs is part of their use. I disagree with the change request.

Ducking high's isn't the damn problem. The problem is it ducks a high and recovers before the attacker. Low holds should have the longest recovery out of all the holds.

- The holds in the Alpha build have the perfect active frames and recovery in and out of stun. unfortunately from what Grape has said this has been reduced from 35 frames total to 30... The properties of the frames and total frames should be returned back to ALPHA build status. The recovery is MORE than enough and the active frames in stun are low enough allowing major punish. Any more recovery to that would be stupid.

The holds in Alpha were not perfect...They needed a way longer recovery and a way shorter active frame.

- As for reworking stun system, just NO. The current DOA5 stun system plays great with keeping the feel of the old and introducing new guaranteed elements while still remaining unique to DOA. this should not change ...

While DoA5 has done a good job making changes to specific stuns, the overall system is still too similar to DoA4 and THAT is a very bad thing given the changes we have seen recently to the CB with players needing 4-5 hits to get a CB. If you need more than 3 hits to reach a CB it literally makes them useless outside of getting a free PB. Either return the stun/launch back to 3.1 or give us CB within the 2-3 hit.

Granted at this point it's obviously too late to fix the overall stun system but they can still easily change the threshold of launch heights and CB's etc...

 

[jay]

Hey guys new to the DOA scene but not to the FGC scene, and this game is starting to get talked about around the FGC(I should know I’ve been hyping it up). I’ve never played a DOA game so this will be my first. I want it to be successful and accepted in the FGC, and reading some of some of yawls past opinions, it seemed it was going that way. However recently I have been reading that that’s slowly changing and going back to what didn’t work in the past. I don’t know the specifics about what these questionable changes are… but if its going back to what didn’t work in the past that can’t be a good thing. Albert Einstein “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. I want this game to be accepted in competitive play, it might not be popular but at least it will be respected!

Again I’m not a doa player but I will try to give some advice borrowing from my soul caliber, tekken and other 3d fighter back ground to help.

1. Agreed

2. The only other game I know that has string delay is soul caliber and those strings are move specific and are easy to deal with that’s why there mostly safe on block. IF strings can randomly be rotated between fast and slow without any time to react to than that needs some tweaking. A)Reduce the amount of time in general characters have to delay attacks

3. I prefer they spend what little time they have elsewhere.

4. No too little to give an opinion

5. No too little to give an opinion

6. Agreed(seems like a must)

7. In Tekken and SFxT, I play characters like Asuka and Lil who have a counter hold , I would consider it really cheap if I could spam it to the point where my opponent throws their controller scared to press a button, so the more it feels like I read the attack the better.

“Somewhere in the middle would probably be good”

8. No too little to give an opinion
Well that’s my 0.02c I hope you guys are doing everything y’all can to make this a good game. If there’s a problem please let TN know[/

3. I prefer they spend what little time they have elsewhere.

4. No too little to give an opinion

5. No too little to give an opinion

6. Agreed(seems like a must)

7. In Tekken and SFxT, I play characters like Asuka and Lil who have a counter hold , I would consider it really cheap if I could spam it to the point where my opponent throws their controller scared to press a button, so the more it feels like I read the attack the better.

“Somewhere in the middle would probably be good”

8. No too little to give an opinion
Well that’s my 0.02c I hope you guys are doing everything y’all can to make this a good game. If there’s a problem please let TN know

 

[Chris Harris]

Okay since it seems people don't understand the reason behind string delay (or the system in general).

First off DoA isn't like a traditional fighter where you play whiff punishment or CH hunting. The game revolves around the triangle system with strike, throws, and holds. Everything is virtually unsafe with maybe 1 or 2 moves that are VERY low disadvantage or advantage. The moves that do give advantage are super obvious that they are advantage and the few that aren't super obvious give such small advantage it doesn't matter THAT much.

Now string delay is in the game because everything is unsafe on normal hit or block (for the most part). Instead of building the normal offense or playing a zoning type game (you can still zone just it's a bit different) you play in the best way I can think to describe tug of war lol. It's sorta like turn taking but because everything is negative you can't really play turn taking or it would never be your turn because you don't know when the string will end. So instead of waiting for a string to end you have to gamble and try to fight back (or not fight back) to poke out of it.

You can't really compare it to how another game plays because no game makes you play tug of war. The big change this game will be the sidestep and how it can be used. It's the only factor we don't know to much about and probably won't fully get understand how it changes the game until we are able to play it.

Going back to string delay though if you take it out or tone it down then you have to change the frame data. They go hand in hand with the system of how they want the game to be played.

The reason I think a lot of the FGC (higher level people who understand fighting games that is) is because the mix up is given to you for free. You don't really create your own mix ups as the system integrates them for you with the string delay. So now you have people who don't need to create a mix up but just do what the system tells you to do and you are fine on that part of the game.

Then the last straw is probably the Hold because now not only are you given the mix up tool (with no way to really get away from it as it's the way the game is played) you even have an easy way out of trouble once you do get in it. You finally land a hit but now you have to guess 3-4 more times before you can get substantial damage and if they guess right not only are they out of trouble but they get damage on you.

Now the hold for the most part has been nerfed and they added CB among other unholdable stuns. The hold for the most part is still able to be used the same way but they gave some options to at least limit it. So it really depends on how strong these other options are (aren't) that will bring in the other FGC's.

However I don't think we need to worry about getting those people just yet, we need to establish our own community and get THOSE players to come out. You know the people that actually like DoA for DoA that defend it to the end of the earth. Right now those players are needed more than people playing other games because the game has never been supported by those that claim they like it.

So while this list is cool and could work it's "reaching" at best. Because some of thing that want to be changed go hand and hand with something else which makes tweaking it game changing. At best they just need to change a few things for the game to be played for a decent life span.

- Make sure IN STUN hold recovery is something like -25. This makes it so the Hold can hold more meaning than an " Oh I get hit, let me hold so I can attempt to block". You can't have a move that covers like 5 options for your defense. . .it's just too much.

- Make sure CB is in 2-3 hits useful. Anymore than that and there is literally no reason to use it and in my opinion it needs to be no more than 2 hits useful. You should be looking for a stun and giving the opponent minimal opportunities to escape them. By making it so the opponent has 3-5 chances makes the CB useless because now you might as well go for low damage launcher earlier than guess so many times.

 

[Rubedood]

I don't know a lot about how DOA works, but I do know that CB needs to be reverted back to its E3 form. I don't wanna play DOA4 again.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I'm all for increasing the recovery from Low Holds. As long you can counter under a standing grab and recover before the person who whiffed the grab.

 

[Berzerk!]

The most important issue right now is that CB is effective, so you can get in a situation to do solid guaranteed damage with every character. As stated below

- Make sure CB is in 2-3 hits useful. Anymore than that and there is literally no reason to use it and in my opinion it needs to be no more than 2 hits useful. You should be looking for a stun and giving the opponent minimal opportunities to escape them. By making it so the opponent has 3-5 chances makes the CB useless because now you might as well go for low damage launcher earlier than guess so many times.

I don't know a lot about how DOA works, but I do know that CB needs to be reverted back to its E3 form. I don't wanna play DOA4 again.

We need to get the message across and as such I suggest everyone let the key people know via a twitter campaign, myself and Sorwah have sent this message. Please tweet it and retweet others who tweet it.

@TeamNinjaStudio @kalchi #DOA5 will be rock solid w/ low Frame Disadvantage on guard + high Critical Stun Damage for reliable Critical Burst

eg
https://twitter.com/BerzerkDC/status/233371284954832896

https://twitter.com/FreeStepDodge/status/233376102670815232