Shimbori's reasoning on weak Helena / Lisa /etc. Your thoughts?

[Kayin Amoh]

So, in the Season's Beatings Q+A ( http://www.twitch.tv/addmitt/b/333909821 interview starts at approx 3:25 in) Shimbori mentioned that they designed Helena and Lisa in particular to be outputting less damage as the potential to confuse opponents with them is higher than with other characters.

It's a curious, curious argument as far as I'm concerned, sounding very much like they think that you should work hard to outfox and confuse your opponent for average amounts of damage when a more straight up powerhouse type of character like Jann or Hitomi can use very basic moves and fairly simple strings for more of a reward with far simpler launch options.

During one of DrDogg's matches, pretty simple tactics were being employed to keep him in stun and then rounded off with combos of fairly average input difficulty resulting in pretty good damage. A Lisa or Helena player would be using complicated and often slower setups for much less guaranteed damage - often interruptible at several stages by a well placed or lucky counter.

It's not to take anything away from either player, they're simply using the tools they're provided with. I'm just wondering what you guys think about this concept - it sounds like a weird preconception to balance a game off of.

I'd watch the interview before taking my word for it - haven't rewatched, and I was dead tired when watching it, but I recall that was pretty much their reasoning.

 

[Sora]

That's a very... hmm, how should I say, Asian way of thinking. Dates back to ancient times where they fully believe that wits is just as strong, if not stronger than raw power (Confucius 1000 men versus 10000, for example). So I kinda get it.

HOWEVER, even if they went for that, I can vouch for Helena still being too mid punch heavy to really do anything. That, and she really doesn't have any frame traps to speak of that would keep 'confusing' opponents (other than KKK/3KKK). She has all of 5+ safe moves out of her reportoire -- the rest are 5f throw punishable or worse.

Make her more safe OR give her more mixup tools, then she'd be just fine as that character archetype.

 

[Batcommander]

How on earth can Lisa "confuse" people when she's ass slow? They either need to speed up her moves, or compensate her for her slowness, in a game where someone can counter or sidestep on reaction, that shit doesn't cut it. I hope they reconsider her design.

 

[MasterGamer]

I don't know about Lisa (I play her, but her confusion level is low), but as far as Helena is concerned I feel that what we have right now is just fine and I agree that because she can be so confusing to opponents that to beef her up any more would break her. A bit safer so I don't have to run scared is okay, but no more damage output. She has the longest juggles of the cast and factor in wall damage and she's still a force to be reckoned with.

P.S. I really don't like that Lisa can be hit while on the ropes. It makes perfect sense, but the ropes invicibility was a saving grace in doa4, now it's almost useless to jump up unless they're 10 feet away.

 

[synce]

It makes sense to me. And Helena is not a bad character based on what I've seen, a few vocal people just want her to be broken. If they're going to buff her damage they need to nerf her evasiveness or trim her move list.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I don't care what people think ..
Lisa and Helena are both good and fun ...

 

[DR2K]

I think the problem is once people start to understand how to defend against them that consfusion factor is lost and you just have an weaker character. When this game evolves past DOA4 and we understand how to maximize punishment these types of characters are in trouble.

 

[Einzelkind]

Helena has always been a flawed character in my opinion. In DOA4 she was basically top tier because of two moves. Take that away and all she has are her "tricks". She's slow, unsafe, relies heavily on mid punches, barely does any damage (and I don't see how her juggles are longer or better than the rest of the cast's). Of course, fixing all of that could turn her into a problem. If she stays that unsafe and dependant on playing the stun game, she should either get a CB/one or two sitdown stuns from either bokuho or backturned (that are not mid punches) or a low throw from one of her stances. But I guess it's easier to just make her a little safer. At least make her open palm strikes safe again.

 

[Codemaster92163]

That doesn't make sense. Any character can practically stop a strings and use any of the 4 attacks at their disposal. Just because Helena or Lisa have different variations of those 4 attacks doesn't make them better at mix-ups.

Not that they aren't. I definitely think Helena has a strong mix-up game, but to limit their effectiveness just because of that character aspect is rather brash.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Give back her old safe moves ///BKO/BKO, give her a couple of in string guard crushes, (BT) is worthless, 3 high's from BT? & BKO would be good guard crushes, they are very slow and can be interrupted) also make her 3in1 BKO transitions safe enough that she cannot get punished with .

 

[HiiDOOM]

My take on the situation is this. DOA is not a complicated game. It never has been and possibly never will be. DOA5 has added/refined elements to make it a deeper experience, which IMO, is a great step in the right direction. Your mileage on this may vary depending on what type of player you are, and what you're looking for in a fighting game.

A character like Helena (you can lump in Lisa as well) should only be confusing to players that strictly stay in DOA waters. If you've played the 'confusing' character archetype from other franchises, it's easy to understand why these characters are currently looking a bit lackluster compared to the rest of the roster. They're unsafe, do lower-end damage, and lack 'real' options. This last part is the most important.

Take a look at a character like VF's Lei-Fe (who amongst VF standards, is a bottom tier character himself). Lei-Fe is also lumped under the 'confusing' character archetype, his goal is to confuse the opponent into making mistakes so that he can capitalize with his robust moveset and gain the upper hand. His style is meant to be a counter point to someone like Jacky (Jann Lee), who's play style is more obvious/straight forward but triumphs instead by overwhelming players with his speed and range.

The problem here is that while Helena and Lei-Fe look similar on paper, it's a comparison that starts to erode if you dig a bit deeper. When Lei-Fe transitions into a stance you honestly have to consider what he's going to do next. Why? Because not only do his stance transitions usually leave him at positive frames, many of them also contain moves that outright beat your moves when used properly (sabakis). He is a very hard character to fight without character knowledge as he can severely limit your options if you are unaware of what situations he is putting you in.

So what's wrong with Helena than? Honestly? She's a fake Lei-Fe. She's meant to be super confusing by swinging her arms around and going into different stances and stuff --- pretty much like Lei-Fei. The problem is she's super unsafe on most her strings. Her stance transitions usually get her killed (some of which she can't even directly access, see back turned.) Instead of shining at limiting opponents options, she kinda just sucks at it instead. Overall, her problem is she just has a hard time beating 'less confusing' characters, because she's just waayyy less scary than they are.

Now, this may seem like I'm crusading for her to be girl Lei-Fe (and maybe I am), but if your justification of making a character do less damage/require smart play is because they're super confusing and excell at mind games. Give them the tools to do so!

TL;DR version:
The 'confusing' DOA characters suck because they're not really confusing. Please give them better options so that they can earn the right to do less damage and require more work to win with.

 

[Batcommander]

the fucking truth

THANK YOU, dude, praise Lilith.

Lei Fei is ass slow, but he is compensated by evasive moves and sabakis, it is so funny because i was just making this comparison in my head earlier to Lisa, who has none of that good shit but is STILL slow. I can't speak for Helena, but Lisa would benefit tremendously from things like this.

They can start by making her standing BT throw an OH! ^^ (not gonna happen, but would be a godly buff)

 

[Doug Nguyen]

I think the problem is once people start to understand how to defend against them that consfusion factor is lost and you just have an weaker character. When this game evolves past DOA4 and we understand how to maximize punishment these types of characters are in trouble.

I agree, its not fair for people to rely on confusion only. She needs some tools out of her confusion. I mean every character can be confusing if your not experienced with them.

 

[the space cadet]

My take on the situation is this. DOA is not a complicated game. It never has been and possibly never will be. DOA5 has added/refined elements to make it a deeper experience, which IMO, is a great step in the right direction. Your mileage on this may vary depending on what type of player you are, and what you're looking for in a fighting game.

I agree with you completely on this. I'm still new to DOA, so I obviously have a lot to learn yet, but I've spent this entire release week picking at DOA's brain and comparing it to VF. Although my heart will always be with VF, I can already say DOA is my 2nd favorite fighter.

Looking at the game mechanics and how a general match plays out, one comapison keeps coming up for me between VF and DOA.

VF is like sitting at a table in the park while playing a game of shogi; DOA is like poker night at a friend's. Both are enjoyable, but for different reasons.

Also, the Lei Fei/Helena comparison seems rather accurate. They both are effective against novices, but any skilled player knows where the breaks are in their transitions. Of cource, my experience with my comment is mostly pertaining to Lei Fei (I liked when I played someone using him, regardless of their rank, because I felt it was a free win for me) but those same breaks in transitions exist in Helena's game. In the end, I don't think either player is suitable for advanced players.

That could be further evidenced by the fact that virtually no one in tournaments for VF or DOA are ever using Lei Fei or Helena.