Sidestep from disadvantage: some questions

[shinryu]

I'm sure this varies from character to character, but is there a good sense on how deep into disadvantage you can successfully sidestep and retaliate from? Obviously once you hit -5 you're theoretically throw punishable no matter what, but at -4 or better are you guaranteed to step any linear attack and be able to hit the SS attack? If you SS and attack against a non-guaranteed throw, does that beat the throw always, or are you additionally vulnerable during the SS frames? Also, as long as the attack isn't guaranteed (say -9 vs Kasumi), can you still SS at least if not use the SS attacks, or is there some point where the SS doesn't actually enter "evasive" frames in time?

DrDogg mentioned SS was specifically strong for Mila and I hadn't thought in that direction until he mentioned it, what with SS being crap previously and all. If you can SS successfully at negative I can see this being strong for someone like Tina: her 6f+k leaves you at -4, so if you can SS and attack even at that disadvantage it's a lot stronger. On the other hand, Mila can specifically SS into an OH and I wonder if that's not why it's so good for her since that should beat a lot of things cold vs. an attack that might be slow or trade.

 

[Batcommander]

I'm sure this varies from character to character, but is there a good sense on how deep into disadvantage you can successfully sidestep and retaliate from? Obviously once you hit -5 you're theoretically throw punishable no matter what, but at -4 or better are you guaranteed to step any linear attack and be able to hit the SS attack? If you SS and attack against a non-guaranteed throw, does that beat the throw always, or are you additionally vulnerable during the SS frames? Also, as long as the attack isn't guaranteed (say -9 vs Kasumi), can you still SS at least if not use the SS attacks, or is there some point where the SS doesn't actually enter "evasive" frames in time?

DrDogg mentioned SS was specifically strong for Mila and I hadn't thought in that direction until he mentioned it, what with SS being crap previously and all. If you can SS successfully at negative I can see this being strong for someone like Tina: her 6f+k leaves you at -4, so if you can SS and attack even at that disadvantage it's a lot stronger. On the other hand, Mila can specifically SS into an OH and I wonder if that's not why it's so good for her since that should beat a lot of things cold vs. an attack that might be slow or trade.

Against the grapplers, -4 is unsafe.

 

[Matt Ponton]

-5 is unsafe, because the 5th frame of grapplers is the hit frame.

Even then, it's a breakable throw.

 

[Batcommander]

-5 is unsafe, because the 5th frame of grapplers is the hit frame.

Even then, it's a breakable throw.

Hmm, it says -4 in the training mode, does that mean we add +1 frame to every move then? I'm a bit confused

 

[Matt Ponton]

You don't add the +1 to the -4. You add the +1 to your frame count of whatever attack you are performing.

 

[shinryu]

My understanding's always been it's effectively -5 for everybody for neutral throws, and -6 or -7 for command throws depending on the character. That might have changed in 5.

Back to the original question: are you all good to evade anything linear at -5 or better, then? Can you buffer a throw break, or if you SS attack does that just negate a normal throw anyway? Not having frames in front of me, I've gotten the impression that a lot of the SS p class attacks tend to be truly safe, so if you can sidestep out of some normally throw punishable situations with a truly safe attack that might be a pretty strong option, it at least gives some additional ways to pressure after e.g. blocked p.

 

[Dr Sexual]

I honestly have no idea what all you guys are talking about framewise, but I have noticed that I can sidestep directly out of a low hold and evade alot of stuff.

Back in the day as everybody knows you could technically low hold to evade high attack strings and grabs and still be able to easily attack right out of it but with the new system you really cant do that.

Now if I panic low hold to avoid a grab or combo I can usually immediately sidestep out of it into my backfist (Jann Lee) and get a free stun before my opponent has a chance to punish the whiffed low hold.

Again im not 100% sure but I think that kinda applies to the topic title.

 

[NightAntilli]

Hmm, it says -4 in the training mode, does that mean we add +1 frame to every move then? I'm a bit confused

It's actually really simple. Attacks consist of execution frames, active frames and recovery frames. The 4 is the execution frames. Those are the amount of frames BEFORE the attack connects. The frames where the attack connects are the active frames. Which means at its fastest the attack connects at the 5th frame.

 

[Batcommander]

It's actually really simple. Attacks consist of execution frames, active frames and recovery frames. The 4 is the execution frames. Those are the amount of frames BEFORE the attack connects. The frames where the attack connects are the active frames. Which means at its fastest the attack connects at the 5th frame.

I understand, but does that mean we add an extra frame to EVERY attack in training mode? Like, if a move says 14 frames, it's really 15 frames? That's why i'm a bit confused, i dont think it worked like that in VF:FS training mode.

 

[Sora]

I understand, but does that mean we add an extra frame to EVERY attack in training mode? Like, if a move says 14 frames, it's really 15 frames? That's why i'm a bit confused, i dont think it worked like that in VF:FS training mode.

That's not it. If a move is 14 frames, then it takes 14 frames to come out.

That said, if an opponent was at -14, then by the time your move comes out, he/she will be in frame 0--thus able to block/crouch/do whatever they want.

SO, if an opponent is -4, the throw is not guaranteed because they can do X to get out of it. It's only guaranteed -5 and up (since by the time the throw comes out, he/she is still -1--recovering from the move).

Makes sense?

 

[Batcommander]

That's not it. If a move is 14 frames, then it takes 14 frames to come out.

That said, if an opponent was at -14, then by the time your move comes out, he/she will be in frame 0--thus able to block/crouch/do whatever they want.

SO, if an opponent is -4, the throw is not guaranteed because they can do X to get out of it. It's only guaranteed -5 and up (since by the time the throw comes out, he/she is still -1--recovering from the move).

Makes sense?

yes i understand, thank you.

 

[StickyStaines]

Do regular throws track to sidestep? In theory you might be able to do the sidestep/throw OS that is in VF for stuff 0 to -4. This also could apply to anything that is -5. You could put yourself at -5, input sidestep then throw. Theoretically you should sidestep if they choose to use a linear move but still break the throw if they try to throw. Guess it depends on the buffer and how the game handles throw techs.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Yes, it will work since you are buffering a throw escape from step. I would also like to add that -5 throw punishable state only applies when you put yourself at a disadvantage using an attack on block. If your opponent uses a move that puts you in a negative state, it can only be guranteed if the opponent has an attack that will connect in those frames. Ex, leifang does a parry that grants her +16, and she uses her 10 frame jab. If she uses anything that goes beyond those 16 frames, you are free to side step, block..etc.

 

[Batcommander]

Yes, it will work since you are buffering a throw escape from step. I would also like to add that -5 throw punishable state only applies when you put yourself at a disadvantage using an attack on block. If your opponent uses a move that puts you in a negative state, it can only be guranteed if the opponent has an attack that will connect in those frames. Ex, leifang does a parry that grants her +16, and she uses her 10 frame jab. If she uses anything that goes beyond those 16 frames, you are free to side step, block..etc.

In that example, Fang can use a move that IS 16 frames tho to punish tho, correct?

 

[virtuaPAI]

-No. I will advise all new players to go to this thread: www.freestepdodge.com/threads/how-to-use-frame-data.224/
-This will explain how frame data work in the doa universe.

 

[Batcommander]

-No. I will advise all new players to go to this thread: www.freestepdodge.com/threads/how-to-use-frame-data.224/
-This will explain how frame data work in the doa universe.

Got it, thanks Pai.

 

[NightAntilli]

In that example, Fang can use a move that IS 16 frames tho to punish tho, correct?

Nope. You still need to take the active frame into account. You could say you need to add one frame to every move. It's just a matter of perspective. In VF, the frame data is counted until the attack actually hits. Same goes for SF. In DOA however, it only counts the execution frames, so the hit detection is one additional frame. So a 9 frame jab of DOA is basically a 10 frame jab of VF.
I assume that's why people say 9i frames in DOA instead of just saying 9 frames, but don't quote me on that xD

 

[Batcommander]

Nope. You still need to take the active frame into account. You could say you need to add one frame to every move. It's just a matter of perspective. In VF, the frame data is counted until the attack actually hits. Same goes for SF. In DOA however, it only counts the execution frames, so the hit detection is one additional frame. So a 9 frame jab of DOA is basically a 10 frame jab of VF.
I assume that's why people say 9i frames in DOA instead of just saying 9 frames, but don't quote me on that xD

Yeah, that's what was throwing me off, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Nope. You still need to take the active frame into account. You could say you need to add one frame to every move. It's just a matter of perspective. In VF, the frame data is counted until the attack actually hits. Same goes for SF. In DOA however, it only counts the execution frames, so the hit detection is one additional frame. So a 9 frame jab of DOA is basically a 10 frame jab of VF.
I assume that's why people say 9i frames in DOA instead of just saying 9 frames, but don't quote me on that xD

We say i9 for initial 9 frames. 9i is what I see SC players use and it means impact frame 9. An i9 in DOA is a 10i in SC.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Side step feels very random to me. I try to use it in smart ways and it really doesn't work in a manner it should. Like with Hayate I do 2p so I'm at neutral, I go for a SS and get hit. Oh I'm at a slight frame disadvantage. I'm gonna risk a SS, chances are they won't throw...smack! Might just be me needing to spend more time with it though. It seems to be very situation based.