DOA5LR So I think I've been learning DoA/Fighting games wrong. How do I fix this?

[Reikou]

Been plaaying DoA5:LR for a while now, and I've kind of hit a ceiling in terms of what I can do, and I believe its because I learned the Dead or Alive game the "wrong way."

I've mostly been playing Kokoro, my long time favorite DoA character, and can play decently. However, one thing I do believe I'm missing is I don't really understand and make use of the fundamental mechanics of this game.

The way I've been learning my character is watching combo videos, trying to copy them, and then finally just repeating them on whatever opponents I face, regardless of the other major factors in the game (such as weight, terrain, walls, etc.) Those who can read the combos I'm pulling simply stop me in my tracks.

What I think I'm missing is learning what exactly all the different moves my character has does exactly, how and when exactly to use them, so that I'm not pulling off combos from muscle memory, but reacting properly to the situation, and thus making my own combos, basically on the fly. ie: I'm using X move because my opponent is a light weight in high counter at Z range, on icy terrain.
Or my opponent is counter launched, he is medium weight, there is a wall nearby so I'm going to use Y move because I don't want to knock him into the wall just yet.

I think how I can fix this is to relearn, (and actually learn/understand/use) the basic mechanics of the game, however I'm really not sure where to start. A lot of the information is out there and I've read/watched/listened to a lot of them so I have a cursory knowledge of this stuff. Just not as in depth of an understanding as I would like.

I'm just curious if anyone has felt the same way, and if so, how did you fix it?

 

[Saber]

I used to do that too. All I did was watch combo videos and repeat onscreen. How did I fix it?

I think @EMPEROR_COW 's tutorials are one of the best ways to learn the DOA fundamentals. I highly recommend checking them out.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLR5AtaDf4PXJVSIDhPGxbz_uGkpBz-kjt

 

[The Enforcer]

That's the great thing about DOA is how much depth it has when you take into account the many nuances past the paper/rock/scissors mechanics. Crushes, Wall hits, frame advantage, and on and on...

As you said, executing combos from memory can be predictable. Something I had to learn early when I started at tournaments. There are certain times when you want muscle memory to kick like when you already have the opponent launched so you don't drop a combo.

If you're already playing online at least your getting some exposure to actual players, but often this may result in frequent patterns. I've found offline scenes to be one of the best training grounds for experience. If you do not have one accessible, developing a local scene can help too. That way playing with some regular people will help show you which habits you need to break.

 

[UncleBiscuits79]

Been plaaying DoA5:LR for a while now, and I've kind of hit a ceiling in terms of what I can do, and I believe its because I learned the Dead or Alive game the "wrong way."

I've mostly been playing Kokoro, my long time favorite DoA character, and can play decently. However, one thing I do believe I'm missing is I don't really understand and make use of the fundamental mechanics of this game.

The way I've been learning my character is watching combo videos, trying to copy them, and then finally just repeating them on whatever opponents I face, regardless of the other major factors in the game (such as weight, terrain, walls, etc.) Those who can read the combos I'm pulling simply stop me in my tracks.

What I think I'm missing is learning what exactly all the different moves my character has does exactly, how and when exactly to use them, so that I'm not pulling off combos from muscle memory, but reacting properly to the situation, and thus making my own combos, basically on the fly. ie: I'm using X move because my opponent is a light weight in high counter at Z range, on icy terrain.
Or my opponent is counter launched, he is medium weight, there is a wall nearby so I'm going to use Y move because I don't want to knock him into the wall just yet.

I think how I can fix this is to relearn, (and actually learn/understand/use) the basic mechanics of the game, however I'm really not sure where to start. A lot of the information is out there and I've read/watched/listened to a lot of them so I have a cursory knowledge of this stuff. Just not as in depth of an understanding as I would like.

I'm just curious if anyone has felt the same way, and if so, how did you fix it?

Hi there. Just a question for you. Have you been all the way through the built in tutorial in DOA5u or LR? That tutorial is VERY good. It's probably the BEST in game tutorial I have ever seen in a fighting game. It is very good at giving the basics of fighting games in general, explaining the mechanics of the game, and even going into advanced techniques. It was garbage in DOA5 vanilla, but it is awesome in the later versions. You will definitely learn some things.

The Emperor Cow tutorials are pretty good too, but I would definitely start with the in game tutorial for sure.

 

[Reikou]

Hi there. Just a question for you. Have you been all the way through the built in tutorial in DOA5u or LR? That tutorial is VERY good. It's probably the BEST in game tutorial I have ever seen in a fighting game. It is very good at giving the basics of fighting games in general, explaining the mechanics of the game, and even going into advanced techniques. It was garbage in DOA5 vanilla, but it is awesome in the later versions. You will definitely learn some things.

The Emperor Cow tutorials are pretty good too, but I would definitely start with the in game tutorial for sure.

Yes I've played through the tutorials, and I understand basically the different mechanics in this game. However what I don't understand is how to use them properly.

For example, if fighting on the frozen stage, it makes enemies slip easier so I should be using X move more often instead of Y move, etc.

 

[UncleBiscuits79]

Yes I've played through the tutorials, and I understand basically the different mechanics in this game. However what I don't understand is how to use them properly.

For example, if fighting on the frozen stage, it makes enemies slip easier so I should be using X move more often instead of Y move, etc.

Ah ok, I think I got you now. I may not have understood before. Well, honestly, the way I learned was mostly fighting other people and experimenting to see what worked and what didn't. I know that's kind of cliche, but it does work and you will eventually start picking up on things that work and things that don't. Other things I did was just to go into free training mode on the stage where I wanted to find out about the things you mentioned. I took my main character on the ice stage until I found all the lows that cause slip stun on CH, and then figured out what I needed to do after that (usually to get free follow up damage).

I had to go into training to find the highest damage combo after a wall bound. Once I found that, I then tried to figure out the combo that gave me the max damage on a highest threshhold launch and what my highest launcher was. I then had to find moves that caused a lift stun that prevented an instant hold from the opponent. These are just examples, but yeah, got to get used to using training mode.

One thing I like to do sometimes to is to find and watch matches on youtube of the character I was trying to learn. I main Hitomi, so I took a look at a few high level matches with them and learned alot of good tech from there.

There are tons of expert Kokoro players that have vids online that you can take a look at too. Lots of tech to learn there. I know you mentioned combo videos, and those are ok, but it's not so much about combos as much as it is about knowing when and how to use key moves. Combos aren't very useful if you can't get the opponent to that point with the right moves.

Don't know if this will help you, but it did help me a ton. Cheers!!

 

[Edmund]

I'm a tekken player and love doa but I'm just so awful at doa partly because I need to vary my combos all the time.

It fucks with my head when I have to force myself to vary my combos so that I don't get held. And just varying by a move screws up my whole combo.

For tekken you just need to learn to learn max damage combos, and maybe a wall carry combo. And that's it.

 

[Zack117]

I am playing doa only for a some of months now but I think I am able to contribute to this discussion.

This is my story so far, order may vary:

1. Learn the basics and mechanics of the game.
2. Learn your character. (also watch and try to analyze high level matches and take your time with it)
3. Find skilled people to regulary play with, ideally offline if possible. THIS is very important. No, seriously. It's the fastest way to improve.
4. Get wrecked by them.
5. Never get frustrated because of losing.
   
6. Save replays, watch and analyze them.
7. Learn your character.
8. Get wrecked again.
9. Learn your character.
10. Go online. Wreck other people and witness the results of your hard work.
    
11. Start to learn other characters in order to aquire better reads on your opponent.
    
12. Keep on learning.
    
13. Never stop learning.

I am lucky to get to play some of the best players in my country and I can only say that since I started playing them, my game has improved significantly. You learn so much by simply playing, not to mention if those people give you tips and advice. Getting in touch with good players is crucial.

 

[Argentus]

I'm just like ...tears of joy right now. I love that this is being brought up, I've been pointing it out for a LONG time and its why I play DOA instead of other fighters.

I'm a tekken player and love doa but I'm just so awful at doa partly because I need to vary my combos all the time.

It fucks with my head when I have to force myself to vary my combos so that I don't get held. And just varying by a move screws up my whole combo.

For tekken you just need to learn to learn max damage combos, and maybe a wall carry combo. And that's it.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Its hard, almost impossible to explain this to people.

Its why I consider DOA to be the closest to a "real" fighter, outside of like ufc or wrestling games. And can't stand games like Tekken. (Specifically that it encourages the "memorize combos and that's it" mentality, rather than DOA's "need to learn how to fight" system)

I love you guys right now.

 

[Nereus]

Question: Where is all this talk coming from on the basis that Tekken is "memorizing combos and that's it"? The game is very footsie based and frame data heavy like a lot of other fighters.

 

[Awesmic]

Been plaaying DoA5:LR for a while now, and I've kind of hit a ceiling in terms of what I can do, and I believe its because I learned the Dead or Alive game the "wrong way."

I've mostly been playing Kokoro, my long time favorite DoA character, and can play decently. However, one thing I do believe I'm missing is I don't really understand and make use of the fundamental mechanics of this game.

The way I've been learning my character is watching combo videos, trying to copy them, and then finally just repeating them on whatever opponents I face, regardless of the other major factors in the game (such as weight, terrain, walls, etc.) Those who can read the combos I'm pulling simply stop me in my tracks.

What I think I'm missing is learning what exactly all the different moves my character has does exactly, how and when exactly to use them, so that I'm not pulling off combos from muscle memory, but reacting properly to the situation, and thus making my own combos, basically on the fly. ie: I'm using X move because my opponent is a light weight in high counter at Z range, on icy terrain.
Or my opponent is counter launched, he is medium weight, there is a wall nearby so I'm going to use Y move because I don't want to knock him into the wall just yet.

I think how I can fix this is to relearn, (and actually learn/understand/use) the basic mechanics of the game, however I'm really not sure where to start. A lot of the information is out there and I've read/watched/listened to a lot of them so I have a cursory knowledge of this stuff. Just not as in depth of an understanding as I would like.

I'm just curious if anyone has felt the same way, and if so, how did you fix it?

It sounds to me like you already have all the answers. Check out Sly Bass's how-to tutorial on reading frame data while you're at it.

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/frame-data-explained.5412/page-2#post-246935

Personally, I'm still trying to find my own answers.

 

[Niitris]

I have a much stronger Tekken background, I can with no doubt say that it's much more than merely "memorizing combos." Movement and mixing up techniques is every bit as important as both pertains to making punish opportunities against your opponent.

At OP: I have the same issue. Just a mentality I'm trying to break out of myself.

 

[d3v]

For tekken you just need to learn to learn max damage combos, and maybe a wall carry combo. And that's it.

So much mis-information about Tekken in this thread.

Let Aris teach you a thing or two.

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

regarding tekken i saw a very informative post about why online tekken is like that
"Here's the deal though Beginner get raped by strings, Beginner use a string based character, Beginner spam strings. Beginner rape another beginner with strings, That beginner starts using the same strings, That beginner Infects another beginner with the strings virus, The another beginner use the same character and strings"

but back to the subject, you need to understand the properties of each move. learning combos isnt bad, but you need to pay attention and eventually learn why that person combined those moves in the first place. for example identify the launcher they are using, next what moves are causing that character to float, and last what move are they ending it with. some moves provide special benefits for example using Bayman's to end a juggle will give him a guaranteed ground throw at the end.

 

[That_John_Guy]

The Emperor Cow Tutorial series is very informative and some parts I've been watching over and over. Perfect Legend also did a 1/2 hour DOA Tutorial on his youtube channel.

Not to put words in the OP's mouth, but I don't think he was saying that Tekken is scrubby, so much as that games that don't have holds don't have holds. Coming from something of an NRS background, I understand what he means that it is a whole other dimension to a game to have to worry about getting interrupted mid-combo. I read it as him praising DOA's depth more than dissing on Tekken. In NRS games, all you can pretty much do once you are being combo-ed is use a Breaker (MK) or Clash (IGAU).

So, a lot of games have the BnB's, Bread n Butter Combos, where you do learn a couple high damage mid-screen combos (one with a low starter and one with a mid-starter) and a couple wall combos (one with a low and one with a mid) and you are pretty good to go, I agree. Obviously there are more nuances and different combos might have different positional benefits, but if you have a couple BnBs you lean on, it often doesn't matter if the opponent knows *exactly* what your next 8 moves are going to be, since there's nothing they can do about it. I've seen Top 8s in other games where the top players are essentially using the exact same combos over and over again, just with different starters. During their Injustice streams, GGA used to have chants for certain combos because everyone in the room new exactly what the next move was that was coming and when it would hit, so everyone could chant along with the predictable combo to follow. That DOA doesn't allow predictable combos, that you have to have mixups within your combo is pretty sick.

 

[Allan Paris]

Help

To help you out, DOA is a highly flexible game. There is no "wrong" way to play DOA or "good" way for that matter. That is after you understand and know the basics of its system. You build off that and create a style, or approach that you want. Some approaches are better than others but, the flexibility is there to do what you want and be effective just so as long as you are trying and working with the system.

I can tell you that studying combo videos will not help you develop a strong game. You will grow into a Combo-Artist in which you can be effective but, the moment you come across a player that knows the basics and how to prevent you from doing the majority of what you want to start your combos; you will have a big problem with winning against certain types of players.

I just so happen to have a beginner video out for Kokoro that you can watch and learn the basics of her. There are also helpful threads in her sub-forum to guide you as well. Do not sit and primarily watch combo videos to learn her or any character.

YouTube

3 4 2,158

15:41

Kokoro's: Beginner Tutorial (DOA5U)

Nothing against Cow's tutorials, they are great. Just like the in game tutorial his tutorials is a lot of information to take in for a beginner (12-14 videos). Which is why you have done that in-game tutorial and still draw blanks in your matches and do not know how to apply what you have learned. If you watch his videos take your time and keep going over them so the information sticks the same for the in-game tutorial.

I also have a series of videos out as well that go over the basic fundamentals of the game. There are not as many but they hold just as much information on the game-play for DOA, which should be a lot easier for you to hold onto the information. I also recommend to keep going over these as well.

So whatever source you use, pick one, and keep going over the information until it becomes second nature and you don't have spend a lot of time thinking like, "Uhhh, what should I do, what should I do, what should I do?!?!"

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWPOZNFdKVXtzcYAGX1jaAzJQ0uptdZ_F
You can also find them here on FSD in the Media Library but they are not in playlist like they are on YouTube.

 

[UncleKitchener]

If you are transitioning from either Tekken or VF with good fundementals, you get into the game with good understanding of spacing and punishment. Local Tekken players who picked up the game have a better time adapting to setups and mixups and put emphasis on whiff punishment and block punishment than long time DOA players, being more consistent with throw punishment.

That is already a hurdle taken care of in terms of me teaching the game. Afterwards, players can just concentrate on leaning character specifics and combos.

It's recommended to have good fundamentals from other games as it speeds up the learning process and just makes your life easier.