Characters The Future for Hayate

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
It's about that time of year again.

I've been getting back to my roots with Hayate, rediscovering why I loved playing with him so much and the connections between him, Ein and a large amount of other characters I play in other games.

What I want to discuss here is ideas for growing Hayate as a character and his style in general and I think that can be approached by looking at certain aspects of the character.

  1. The Wind Dash Intergration
  2. Launcher Sensibility
  3. Juggle Diversity
  4. New Moves
  5. Safety and Frame Advantage
[Now as a disclaimer, this isn't a topic to claim said character is weaker than any or the rest. Hayate is solid. He does his job and he does it right. But every character receives changes in general so this is just a topic to voice our opinions to each other.]

Intergrating the Wind Dash

Hayate's new wind dash was an interesting addition to the game. What made it so interesting was the concept and theory behind the moves given to it.

While the DOA4 wind dash seemed to focus more on getting in (all knockdowns and a few stuns) the new wind dash seemed to focus on creating the means to an end (all launchers and knockdowns).

I'd like to return to that concept in LR by making the Wind Dash K launch again. The launch heights would be as they were in Vanilla:
  • NH (If only second kick hits)
    • BT 7K
  • Stun to Launch (Low Threshold)
    • PP6PK (LMH) (If possible, make this only available near the wall)
    • PP2KP (LM)
    • PPKK (LM)
  • Critical Lvl 2 and Counter Hit (If only second kick hits)
    • PPP, 7K (LMH)
    • PPP, 33KK (LM)
    • PPP, 6PK (LM)
  • Full Threshold and High Counter (If only second kick hits)
    • PPP, 33KK (LMH)
    • PPP, 6PK (LM)

On block it would be -7, This is because at anything above -7, he's able to be punished with a guaranteed back throw and against grapplers a 6i throw instead which will do sufficient damage. Jabs can't be blocked but can be ducked and crushed. Everything else should still hit if he presses a button.

On that note, I would vote to receive 1k as its previous iteration from DOA4 with the pp2kp version of 1kp and the wind dash transitions. What makes this mix up fair is that all of the options knockdown or can be slow escaped and are unsafe or interrupable.

Launcher Sensibility

What does launcher sensibility mean? Well, think of it this way: How is utility over damage being utilized here? His mid punch launchers make sense in this aspect as do his high kick launchers. Unfortunately I can't agree on his mid kick launchers.

33K and 9K are main issue here.

33K is much faster than 9K at 15i. In turn the base damage was reduced to 20 to up the utility in 9K. Of course this only was true for early stun game.

Both launchers receive the same juggle (PP6PK) off of the stun to launch height. 9K loses its luster late game since its highest damage juggle isn't available until critical lvl 3/full threshold. I think this doesn't really make any sense. To remedy this I want to strip 4P6P+K~K, BT 7K from full threshold 33K and then give 9K a slight increase on height to allow 8P, PPKK to be the BNB for end game on lights and 8P, PP6PK to be available off critcal level 2 and late game for mids.

8K is fine and I've already spoken on Wind Dash K.

For 8k though, while the damage off of it is already good, the ppkk change ties in pretty well to the juggle diversity segment where the main focus are the two.

Juggle Diversity

When I talk about this subject I always assume the way of juggling will never changing for the system in this game. If that weren't the case I'd love to see multiple bound and flop relaunch set ups like in Tekken as well as a few other scenarios.

In this case, we're focusing on the current system and the main additions being PPP, 7K and PPKK late game in the juggle.

I'd like to see ppp get it's relaunch at 4 hits reworked to lift a bit higher to offer 7k so that 8k, 8p, ppp, 7k is available again.

Now I know some of the fears are damage but in reality even as a wall friendly juggle, it doesn't overtake his highest damage juggle (h3pp, pp6pk) which just requires a little execution.

Also even with his advanced mid kick hold, he doesn't get new opportunities that would be game breaking. 8p, ppp, 33kk shouldn't work but wouldn't only be 72 damage while his max damage combo is 76 so if you use the other you're just styling and 6pk as the lender instead of 33kk is two points down at 70 dmg.

Another deal was raising the relaunch on ppk slightly so that anywhere that he gets a stance specific ppkk, it will work in both stances so that he can use it consistently. If the ppk doesn't touch then it won't be available at all.

With the 4-5 point juggle damage buff this puts the two new juggle enders at the same damage as current 4p6p+k~k, bt 7k which would receive a 2 point juggle damage buff by making the second kick of wind dash k do 20 instead of 16 damage.

New Moves

As far as new moves go, 1k is the main one. Another one I would like to see return is his DOA4 Wind Dash Kick as Running 2H+K and move 3H+K to 6H+K.

Safety and Frame Advantage

The last subject is safety.

Even at 12i I don't believe 6p should be -12 on hit or block. It should be -9 and so should 66p. I doubt anyone can name a character that has the same problem for their 12 low damage stunning mid.

3pp should be at least +2 on NH. It's stupid for it to be disadvantage let alone only safe while he gets no launchers guaranteed. Genfu has a similar string. His is plus on NH and be has a 11i mid. Also he gets 33p guaranteed into another 33p which will bound and give him a juggle. Free damage or oki set up. Your choice.

Mila gets +5 too but also gets better stun game and a superior damage output in most of the situations while offering oki pressure from her mounts so she has pressure and damage. Hayate doesn't have solid oki set ups away from the wall.

Zack is at - but he has a 3 hit string with a away transition on 3p in general. His makes sense, Hayate's does not.

Even Kasumi is plus +3 on her p+kp which is very similar and she has a low sweep mix up. So what's the issue??

I vote +3 honestly but if I can get +2 on his 3pp, I'm satisfied.

That's basically it for realistic changes in DOA5LR as far as completing things goes.

For DOA6 I'll post my premade list. In a nutshell though it focuses on giving him more cancels within reason and some teleports straight into the wind dash.

I'll be tweaking the list today though so I'll repost to this topic when it is done and it will be: here

Feel free to post some of your ideas.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Chaos and Tenryuga

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
California
Main Character
Ayane
Even at 12i I don't believe 6p should be -12 on hit or block. It should be -9 and so should 66p. I doubt anyone can name a character that has the same problem for their 12 low damage stunning mid.
Kokoro: -11 on NH, -12 on block
Mila: -6 on NH, -11 on block
Helena: -12 on NH, -14 on block
Momiji: -12 on NH, -12 on block
Leifang: -8 on NH, -12 on block

I am not including the Virtua Fighter characters, Akira and Jacky, because their data is just very different than a DOA character. This list characters with an i12 mid that doesn't stun on neutral hit.

Here's another thing, Hayate isn't a character who is supposed to be overly relying on his i12 6P for the neutral game, just because it's i12 frames. Once his 6P is blocked, he is stuck and you either have to risk a follow up or free cancel that never favors him. 6PK is very risky on a blocking opponent where you are guessing at being neutral thrown or risking a button press because you want to avoid being thrown by anything else. His 6P mid is not designed for regular/natural neutral poking because he does not have certain neutral tools (same speed at different hit levels) some other characters have.

Hayate's 6P is his counter hit tool against players that would dare challenge him, as long as they do not have a faster mid. If anything, his 6P and 6PK are much better as a range tool and whiff punishment. You cannot punish 6PK at -6 on block.

Hayate has a much better time opening someone up with things like 9P[P] charged, jab free cancel mix up, Jab strings/delay/free cancel, 2P and PP6P, with tick throwing.

Every character has different or rather uniquely different ways to open up the opponent's defense. In this game, Hayate's guard breaks is that thing for him. He is supposed to make his opponent scared of the +3 and try to challenge it.

I do think Hayate's 3PP should at least be +3 on neutral hit though. The -5 actually does not make sense to me from that situation.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tenryuga

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
Kokoro: -11 on NH, -12 on block
Mila: -6 on NH, -11 on block
Helena: -12 on NH, -14 on block
Momiji: -12 on NH, -12 on block
Leifang: -8 on NH, -12 on block

I am not including the Virtua Fighter characters, Akira and Jacky, because their data is just very different than a DOA character. This list characters with an i12 mid that doesn't stun on neutral hit.

Here's another thing, Hayate isn't a character who is supposed to be overly relying on his i12 6P for the neutral game, just because it's i12 frames. Once his 6P is blocked, he is stuck and you either have to risk a follow up or free cancel that never favors him. 6PK is very risky on a blocking opponent where you are guessing at being neutral thrown or risking a button press because you want to avoid being thrown by anything else. His 6P mid is not designed for regular/natural neutral poking because he does not have certain neutral tools (same speed at different hit levels) some other characters have.

Hayate's 6P is his counter hit tool against players that would dare challenge him, as long as they do not have a faster mid. If anything, his 6P and 6PK are much better as a range tool and whiff punishment. You cannot punish 6PK at -6 on block.

Hayate has a much better time opening someone up with things like 9P[P] charged, jab free cancel mix up, Jab strings/delay/free cancel, 2P and PP6P, with tick throwing.

Every character has different or rather uniquely different ways to open up the opponent's defense. In this game, Hayate's guard breaks is that thing for him. He is supposed to make his opponent scared of the +3 and try to challenge it.

I do think Hayate's 3PP should at least be +3 on neutral hit though. The -5 actually does not make sense to me from that situation.
Fair point.

I had a whole write up but it was a time waster. I'll digress on changing -12 on block. On the real I'm more worried about on hit than anything but I guess I was lazy with this write up and never finished that section. I'm shooting for -9 on hit with 6P. That's all.

In that, Mila, Lei and Kokoro become exempt since they're close to this ideal set of frames and with Kokoro specifically she only has to deal with the 9i characters on NH but she still has a fully safe option.

As for Momiji, I think it's more complicated between the two but I wouldn't cry if she got the -9 treatment as well.

-Shrugs- It's not that important though. It'd just be nice to not be tick jabbed from hitting 6P on NH.

What's wrong with 66P receiving the -9 or -10 though?
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
I'd like to return to that concept in LR by making the Wind Dash K launch again. The launch heights would be as they were in Vanilla:
  • NH (If only second kick hits)
    • BT 7K
  • Stun to Launch (Low Threshold)
    • PP6PK (LMH) (If possible, make this only available near the wall)
    • PP2KP (LM)
    • PPKK (LM)
  • Critical Lvl 2 and Counter Hit (If only second kick hits)
    • PPP, 7K (LMH)
    • PPP, 33KK (LM)
    • PPP, 6PK (LM)
  • Full Threshold and High Counter (If only second kick hits)
    • PPP, 33KK (LMH)
    • PPP, 6PK (LM)

On block it would be -7, This is because at anything above -7, he's able to be punished with a guaranteed back throw and against grapplers a 6i throw instead which will do sufficient damage. Jabs can't be blocked but can be ducked and crushed. Everything else should still hit if he presses a button.
You do not press 6T to punish BT disadvantages if it is not great enough for you to attack punish. You just press Throw. So you are using a 5i Throw to punish. So even at -6 unless there is any push-back involved with the kick, which it is not, you will still be punished at -7. To make it completely safe you need it to be -4, and it should not be that given what the kick does overall.

Launcher Sensibility

What does launcher sensibility mean? Well, think of it this way: How is utility over damage being utilized here? His mid punch launchers make sense in this aspect as do his high kick launchers. Unfortunately I can't agree on his mid kick launchers.

33K and 9K are main issue here.

33K is much faster than 9K at 15i. In turn the base damage was reduced to 20 to up the utility in 9K. Of course this only was true for early stun game.

Both launchers receive the same juggle (PP6PK) off of the stun to launch height. 9K loses its luster late game since its highest damage juggle isn't available until critical lvl 3/full threshold. I think this doesn't really make any sense. To remedy this I want to strip 4P6P+K~K, BT 7K from full threshold 33K and then give 9K a slight increase on height to allow 8P, PPKK to be the BNB for end game on lights and 8P, PP6PK to be available off critcal level 2 and late game for mids.
I am pretty sure you are missing the point with these 2 launchers. Granted 9K is 2 frames slower (17i) than 33K but you can not see it. The hop kick is on the screen with little to animation of start up. 33K, no matter how you go about it, it can be seen in the input stages of the move. 9K allows you to punish unexpected holds out of stun a lot easier than 33K.

You have to be preemptively ready to launch with 33K after a stun but, at times you may not want to put all your eggs in that basket if you are reading your opponent is ready to hold something. So you wait the stun out a little, and when you do that you leave it open for what you are doing to be read or seen for that matter.

I know this first-hand from playing against players in which I can not predict all that well with what they are going to do when stunned. Most top players raise this issue ie SR, Lopedo, Emann, to name a few. 33K will get held or blocked but, 9K lands a lot more successfully. Now they are and a few others are an exception to this and not the rule. However, you never know what bag a player is coming out of because of the leeway this game allows. So going with moves with the least animation or input detection is what you want to go with for conditioning while you have a player stunned, unless your character can produce deep stuns well then it does not matter.

For them doing the same damage it is fair because of how you can and IMO should be applying them after a stun. At higher levels of play 33K will more or less be a counter poking tool because of it's crushing abilities, and safety. 9K and 8K will end up being your go to Mid Kick launchers. I also I have no idea who you are playing against nor their skill level, no offense to them.

Safety and Frame Advantag
3pp should be at least +2 on NH. It's stupid for it to be disadvantage let alone only safe while he gets no launchers guaranteed. Genfu has a similar string. His is plus on NH and be has a 11i mid. Also he gets 33p guaranteed into another 33p which will bound and give him a juggle. Free damage or oki set up. Your choice.

Mila gets +5 too but also gets better stun game and a superior damage output in most of the situations while offering oki pressure from her mounts so she has pressure and damage. Hayate doesn't have solid oki set ups away from the wall.

Zack is at - but he has a 3 hit string with a away transition on 3p in general. His makes sense, Hayate's does not.

Even Kasumi is plus +3 on her p+kp which is very similar and she has a low sweep mix up. So what's the issue??

I vote +3 honestly but if I can get +2 on his 3pp, I'm satisfied.

That's basically it for realistic changes in DOA5LR as far as completing things goes.

For DOA6 I'll post my premade list. In a nutshell though it focuses on giving him more cancels within reason and some teleports straight into the wind dash.

I'll be tweaking the list today though so I'll repost to this topic when it is done and it will be: here

Feel free to post some of your ideas.
For the millionth time of me telling you. Stop doing your character comparisons in the manner of which you are doing them. If this was DOA4, then yeah, go ahead. There all the characters could be applied the same way and be effective at winning. Here in DOA5, not so much because of TN bringing back character individuality.

With that being said, I do not disagree with cutting down on the disadvantage on NH (things do not need to be plus everywhere though) with 3PP but, that needs to be done for the entire cast in many different areas.

Those attacks are rarely landed on NH nor are they natural combos. Them getting held or blocked is more likely than you landing them on NH.

Here's another thing, Hayate isn't a character who is supposed to be overly relying on his i12 6P for the neutral game, just because it's i12 frames. Once his 6P is blocked, he is stuck and you either have to risk a follow up or free cancel that never favors him. 6PK is very risky on a blocking opponent where you are guessing at being neutral thrown or risking a button press because you want to avoid being thrown by anything else. His 6P mid is not designed for regular/natural neutral poking because he does not have certain neutral tools (same speed at different hit levels) some other characters have.

Hayate's 6P is his counter hit tool against players that would dare challenge him, as long as they do not have a faster mid. If anything, his 6P and 6PK are much better as a range tool and whiff punishment. You cannot punish 6PK at -6 on block.

Hayate has a much better time opening someone up with things like 9P[P] charged, jab free cancel mix up, Jab strings/delay/free cancel, 2P and PP6P, with tick throwing.

Every character has different or rather uniquely different ways to open up the opponent's defense. In this game, Hayate's guard breaks is that thing for him. He is supposed to make his opponent scared of the +3 and try to challenge it.
I disagree with this completely.

If the neutral game gets mid and especially close you will and should be using 6P often or heavily. Not only as a safe poke, yes safe even at -12. No one is throwing or doing it enough to where free canceling it is a problem. 6P is also in that category of low guard stun and quick recovery. It is 1i outside of the maximum for better pokes in the game but, still effective nonetheless in the same way.

Getting 6PK blocked is never risky. There is Fuzzy Guarding and buffering a throw break with it. You can low throw the Fuuzy Guard, and Hayate can decide to hit a button. The trade-off is not worth it. Weak NT damage versus a HCH. More importantly the only offensive thing the opponent can do is neutral throw, which is breakable and for some odd reason in this games leaves the person who initiated the throw at -10. So Hayate should welcome the neutral throw punish that needs to be done immediately after blocking 6PK, or keep blocking since his turn is over.

Just because he does not have "certain neutral tools" (lol) at the same speed does not mean he should not be heavily using it. What about him going against characters who do not have 12i mid and they also have an 11i jab??? He wins all day with just his 12i 6P. I believe what you meant to say is that is boils down to match ups and how heavily Hayate would want to use 6P. Even when he is out-sped 6P should still be used often because the follow-up tracks, and it's the start of a safe string while being safe itself. It also causes a stun if he is patient of enough to counter poke effectively against faster characters.

Using it as one of his ranged tools and whiff punishing attacks, nahh. He has way too many other rewarding options to even consider it, not even once.

If anyone is being opened up with Hayate's charged attacks, shame on you. The issues with those were discussed a long time ago. He can't cancel them, they can be interrupted, and all of them have a clear visual indication that they are coming. You would have to catch a player slipping real bad to get one off but, to OPEN them up, HELL NO! You are better off chucking out 236K all day or trying to do 214K a couple times and leaving it at that.

As far as his mix-ups go before stun, I am sure all Hayate players, somewhere in their mind, they go, "Fuck me." after his jabs. There's nothing after PP scary enough to bring panic, and that's ok. So a decent defensive player will not break after Hayate's jab strings. His delays are terrible, again, there is nothing to bite on. Some of his strings are screwed even with no delay lol.

I can assure you that his Guard Breaks are not things for him to use to open up his opponents. In theory maybe that's what TN wanted but, it does not work that way. It has been tried by me and couple other really good Hayate players that no longer player as much or at all. In stun, yeah, they are great. If your opponent is clueless of him do whatever you want to open them up. Other than that, you are opening up players by counter poking from range, and being close to your opponent on Hayate's terms. In the event you are close and not on your terms against a faster character. Hayate has to rely on defense first by counter poking or SS, and attempting to get back at the mid to long range.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chaos

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
California
Main Character
Ayane
Getting 6PK blocked is never risky.
Yes it is, being at -7 is not favorable for you at all. Fuzzy guard is a safe option but does not completely keep you out of harms way. This loses to low throw and i12 frame throws. Pressing buttons losing to button presses. If you get neutral thrown and you break it, the opponent will have their information and take advantage of that the next time it happens (more specifically someone like Requiem or I will). If you are dabbling between options often, you are guessing at your -7.

What about him going against characters who do not have 12i mid and they also have an 11i jab??? He wins all day with just his 12i 6P. I believe what you meant to say is that is boils down to match ups and how heavily Hayate would want to use 6P. Even when he is out-sped 6P should still be used often because the follow-up tracks, and it's the start of a safe string while being safe itself. It also causes a stun if he is patient of enough to counter poke effectively against faster characters.
I already said that;

Hayate's 6P is his counter hit tool against players that would dare challenge him
Using it as one of his ranged tools and whiff punishing attacks, nahh. He has way too many other rewarding options to even consider it, not even once.
Really? You wouldn't consider something as fast as an i12 frame move with very good range and a semi-safe follow as a range move??? Shame.

If anyone is being opened up with Hayate's charged attacks, shame on you. The issues with those were discussed a long time ago. He can't cancel them, they can be interrupted, and all of them have a clear visual indication that they are coming.
You cannot interrupt 9P[P], has to be held or side stepped. All of his +3 guard breaks have good usage outside of CQC range.

I can assure you that his Guard Breaks are not things for him to use to open up his opponents.
See, that's the thing, you're not reassuring me anything. You trying to tell me that this character's 6P mid can't be used as a range tool has told me that.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
@Allan Paris fair points though, I still disagree on his 3pp. What warrants for it to be -5 on NH? And on top of that 3pp is hitting on NH because people DO attempt paNic holds after getting checked By 3p alone. What you're trying to tell me is this situation is irrelevant and that no one but Hayate deserves to be at disadvantage. Even IF Milas did NC and Gen Fus did as well it's all the more reason to help Hayate.

You can't argue chaining 3pp back to back because his can be slow escaped but Mila nd fu can chain back to back and fu gets his guaranteed launchers. Hayate can gamble on 33k nd 8p but that's theory fighting. In a perfect world they won't connect and I've had people escape it consistently.

What are my perks against them? Enlighten me.

As for the wind dash kick, your viewpoint is unclear but he is squatting to my knowledge. A more damaging 2t on bt should be available.

Just saying, if you''re disagreeing with the idea of upgrading it to a launcher. The point is to keep it unsafe enough to not be abused but safe enough to not get 11i'd for free. With 10i you can at least read and duck it. The throws are guaranteed though to force him to respect it's status.

Am I wrong?
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
Ok, man.

@Allan Paris fair points though, I still disagree on his 3pp. What warrants for it to be -5 on NH? And on top of that 3pp is hitting on NH because people DO attempt paNic holds after getting checked By 3p alone. What you're trying to tell me is this situation is irrelevant and that no one but Hayate deserves to be at disadvantage. Even IF Milas did NC and Gen Fus did as well it's all the more reason to help Hayate.

You can't argue chaining 3pp back to back because his can be slow escaped but Mila nd fu can chain back to back and fu gets his guaranteed launchers. Hayate can gamble on 33k nd 8p but that's theory fighting. In a perfect world they won't connect and I've had people escape it consistently.

What are my perks against them? Enlighten me.

As for the wind dash kick, your viewpoint is unclear but he is squatting to my knowledge. A more damaging 2t on bt should be available.

Just saying, if you''re disagreeing with the idea of upgrading it to a launcher. The point is to keep it unsafe enough to not be abused but safe enough to not get 11i'd for free. With 10i you can at least read and duck it. The throws are guaranteed though to force him to respect it's status.

Am I wrong?
What warrants any character to be - on hit. You are focusing on one move when that is EVERYWHERE in this game. That is not just exclusive to him. Learn what you are playing and why it functions the way it does. So you give him +2 or 3 on 3PP to match a couple other characters. Then what, you go in and say well his Jab should not be - whatever on hit. Again, I am not arguing that a character should be at great disadvantages on hit. It should be cut down but, tweaking that then you have to go in and do it everywhere to be fair.

Be glad he cannot be thrown for doing it. Some characters can be thrown for doing certain holds or connecting attacks on hit. I say he is winning at -5 on NH seeing as he will rarely get it just like Mila and Gen Fu.

He does get 236P guaranteed from 3PP. That punch also plays into his game-play and the game itself because it sends his opponent off into the environment, and it keeps players at the ranges he wants them at. You want to play in the stun game with him and I understand why. This game revolves around that mechanic and you see that. Still, he does not work that way and never did. He delivers continuous hard knockdowns, doing a significant amount of damage until he wins.

Well still, he is squatting and that's a 5i low throw. Still punishable at -6. You are not keeping him safe at -7 BT, young blood. Most BT throws hurt a shit-ton more on NT than they do facing forward. Kasumi launches him all day, I believe Ayane will too, You would get to see a throw Ein almost never gets to use that hurts like a bitch on a ducking BT opponent. So ultimately, you would be putting Hayate in the most dangerous punishment position he has ever been in since he has had that attack. All for what, so you can possibly launch someone? Where before when the kick was real it was a mix up between standing throw or low throw and crushed like nobodies business from range.

Yeah, you are wrong.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
@Allan Paris

I think you need to wake up Allan. It's not ONE character I'm focused on. It's not ONE move I'm focused on. It's not just improving his shit to make him BETTER than everyone else and you should get that fucking ideal out of your head because you are very mistaken.

YES there's disadvantage on other moves in the game. A jab makes sense in this game because it's relatively the same across the board for characters in his category for speed (10i) and the only character that falls away from that is Honoka who's in another speed bracket. She does have her own issues still but that's something else.

So no, I will not ask for + on my jab especially on NH. It's already + on CH so I will not trip about it.

3PP is completely in balance with the others besides that aspect. Mila has the fastest speed and she gets a guaranteed lift stun or launch depending on the threshold placement which can lead into an oki set up which leads to much more damage or a high damage wall carry which potentially sets up another oki set up based off of her mount. Also her 3P is quicker to recover.

Gen Fu gets GUARANTEED damage through a combo which can lead to an oki set up which keeps the pressure (6PPP, 3P (tech up)) or THE highest stun to launch mid punch combo in the game. On top of that he has a launcher off of it to use when 33P may result in a sideways wall splat and it still does sufficient damage (R.I.P. Vanilla h3P launch). He STILL gets + on his 3PP and then on top of that he has a 11i mid so he's already causing problems, but then check me out.

You wanna talk about carrying the opponent to the wall by 236P? How about Gen Fu 3PP, 33P, 33P, 16P and getting some distance or h3p, 16P to get the farther carry. Also at any range that you can follow up on Hayate's 236P's splat, you can do the same with Gen Fu's 66P for relatively the same situation. The only thing he has on Gen Fu is 4P which while good isn't the worst thing in the world since only two things out of that are scary and even then like you said: "A good player won't fall under pressure after that GB" and also the common idea that all sweeps are 100% always able to be reacted to so there should be no REAL 50/50 between 4P6P and 4P2K. Right? So what's the problem then?

As for the Wind Dash K I do see what you're saying. That problem can be fixed by not leaving him in squatting which could be added to the list easily. 71 is pretty bad (Ayane) but she's always had damage on everything in 5. Kasumi on the other hand only gets 67 which is around what Hayate would get from landing it on NH. 67 seems to be the base level of damage that characters are getting off these throws in general so why will I give characters like Kasumi a chance a gambling on stun game resets through things like 6PK, 66K or just finishing it with 6P6K which gives her 70 for free.

Why would I not allow them to get a punish for good blocking?

Before you answer that, look at the utility in the tool now. 2 in 1 launcher from a stance that can be transitioned into a forced mix-up by way of 4P, avoidable mix-up via PP2K (1K if it comes back) and any other future transitions. So now if I stun the opponent it becomes a threat as well offering more damaging juggles in later threshold. Oh, and it high crushes relatively consistently...

Why would I not allow this move to be punished a bit harder?

I may not be saving damage but I am saving relatively a lot of momentum from being built since the opponent forces Hayate into a juggle rather than stun resets that I would never give to Ayane (6P3~64T).

But if anything, clarify your main argument against this. From what I'm reading, you seem to only be concerned with the fact that he'll be hurting for guessing wrong on a higher risk move which has always been claimed to not be a neutral tool by none other than yourself, yet were still talking about the neutral situation because aside from 4P, it will always be able to be blocked so using it is like guessing on Mila's 7K but it has range, a mix-up, two hits, a true cancel into it and crush frames.
 
Last edited:

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
That's what happens when someone wants to level down my opinion. Don't treat it as something I'm uninformed on when it's not.

6P's claim was incorrect out of laziness when coming back to edit the OP. Anything else I put with in reason. Anything otherwise has been or is in the process of being dropped from my blog post.
 
Last edited:

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
I think you need to wake up Allan. It's not ONE character I'm focused on. It's not ONE move I'm focused on. It's not just improving his shit to make him BETTER than everyone else and you should get that fucking ideal out of your head because you are very mistaken.
I been up, you are the one sleeping. Yeah, I can say one because he's the only character you do this with, and I get it, he's your main. I don't not see you asking for tweaks for Kasumi's low punch hold not be throw punishable if a wall is involved. I do not see you asking for Jacky to be safe from punishment after his low kick hold. I do not see asking or tweaking Hitomi to be safe on hit after her new string 214ppK i think that is what it is. I can keep going with this stuff all day.

You only do this with Hayate, I get it.

You are "improving" him to play in a way in which has never played in. From every last tweak or fantasy patch you come up for him, you want him to have stronger mix-ups and allow him to play off into the stun game. I get why, you see how the game is played, and it's like, well shit, I have to keep up somehow and I can't do it as is. It's frustrating, I know, to play against a character and be kept in a stun but, when Hayate does it, it is nowhere near as effective. However, he never played that way, and he was effective in 3, and 4, and even in 5 just so as long keep him in his lane as hard as that can and will be.

I am not just going by with what you have here. You do this with everything you do for him.

YES there's disadvantage on other moves in the game. A jab makes sense in this game because it's relatively the same across the board for characters in his category for speed (10i) and the only character that falls away from that is Honoka who's in another speed bracket. She does have her own issues still but that's something else.

So no, I will not ask for + on my jab especially on NH. It's already + on CH so I will not trip about it.
I used a Jab as an example, where would the line be drawn? 3P is also plus on CH just like his Jab. So he shares something with Mila and Gen Fu :cool:.

3PP is completely in balance with the others besides that aspect. Mila has the fastest speed and she gets a guaranteed lift stun or launch depending on the threshold placement which can lead into an oki set up which leads to much more damage or a high damage wall carry which potentially sets up another oki set up based off of her mount. Also her 3P is quicker to recover.

Gen Fu gets GUARANTEED damage through a combo which can lead to an oki set up which keeps the pressure (6PPP, 3P (tech up)) or THE highest stun to launch mid punch combo in the game. On top of that he has a launcher off of it to use when 33P may result in a sideways wall splat and it still does sufficient damage (R.I.P. Vanilla h3P launch). He STILL gets + on his 3PP and then on top of that he has a 11i mid so he's already causing problems, but then check me out.
Hey look at that, you just explained in detail CHARACTER INDIVIDUALITY! I am glad you are catching up now :cool:.

You wanna talk about carrying the opponent to the wall by 236P? How about Gen Fu 3PP, 33P, 33P, 16P and getting some distance or h3p, 16P to get the farther carry. Also at any range that you can follow up on Hayate's 236P's splat, you can do the same with Gen Fu's 66P for relatively the same situation. The only thing he has on Gen Fu is 4P which while good isn't the worst thing in the world since only two things out of that are scary and even then like you said: "A good player won't fall under pressure with that move"
Gen Fu also needs to be close to be effective against you. So, yeah, he may hurl you across the screen doing a great deal of damage but, you are well out of his range for him to be effective to you after it. Hayate on the other hand is still in range to pop you with one of his various ranged options. What game are you playing, Hayate has a little bit more on Gen Fu than 4P.

No, I said his Jab stings will not get a good player to bite on the follow ups. 4P is not a Jab string last I checked, and I get good players to bite on that because most of them do not know how to respond to it. They see him go BT and thinks it's ok to hit a button, when it is not. If youa re going to quote me, do it right, young blood.

Let's calm down and be civil; No need to get worked up over opinions.
Lmao, I am calm. I have been civilized the whole time. I am arguing his changes and because he does not know as much, he spiraled out of control.

That's what happen when someone wants to level down my opinion. Don't treat it as something I'm uninformed on when it's not.

6P's claim was incorrect out of laziness when coming back to edit the OP. Anything else I put with in reason. Anything otherwise has been or is in the process of being dropped from my blog post.
You are uninformed in this game. If you were well informed, you'd do well performance-wise or at the very least have an opinion within reason of a character's history of game-play along with the game itself. You rather argue with me rather than learning something from me, I told you that a few days ago, and that's fine.

I know these are fantasies/comic book dreams, at least I see them that way. I just like messing with you when I see them. I won't do it anymore. This was my last time. I'll let you live the dream, young blood.

You alright with me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tenryuga

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
Allan when was the last time you placed top 4... nah let me back up. When was the last time you place top 8 at a tournament that's relevant. You ain't far from me old man. So... 0 relevant since I started coming out competitively? You can act hard all you want but I'm looking at the consistency and I haven't seen a win worth talking about since you took DID so I'm not concerned cause we ain't far off. The only time you've beaten me offline is when I just started competing on a competitive level years ago.

So there is no record. It's not me taking shots, it's stating facts and the other fact of the matter is that your point on Wind Dash K is not clarified. My post has been edited with my rebuttal.

On subject, old man, yes buddy does have to stay close to you to be an immediate threat and your example of him pushing the opponent away only applies to 3PP, 33P, 33P, 16P while 6PPP as a juggle is completely relevant and does create an oki situation off of the hard knockdown considering if you don't tech you cannot wake up kick him anywhere on the screen. I won't speak on wall oki between the two because the only current difference is that no one has truly studied to dropped the knowledge from what I've seen but I'm sure there is a set up where he can get a 3P tech up nearly guaranteed just like Hayate.

So they both have the utility and potential, literally the only difference is the fact that Gen Fu gets actual guaranteed setups. Hayate's are potential situations. Dreams and even IF he lands them he doesn't get the damage or oki that Gen Fu does [until] he hits the wall. Gen Fu has it available all day. There's individuality here. Why am I pausing for hitting the same situation as them? Even if it was 0 I'd be content but -5 is stupid.

Also, no I've made claims for other characters but it's just been agreements and support to other players. I will not pioneer Kasumi for you even though I play her but I have asked you questions on certain concerns for issues with her as well. I've heard some of your ideas as well before so to make a claim that I don't care for anyone is something you are misinformed on. Ein is a big example. He's not my main. I've helped and pioneer with Zeo and Tenryuga for him.

Want an example of the top?

Jann Lee. K4K and 3K4K. Why does the K4K track but not 3K4K? Why does 3K4KP track but not K4KP? This is consistent and he'd see much more utility out of 3K4K tracking and more reason out of 3K4KP not tracking. Also on 3K, as a sit down it's arguable how useful it is since it doesn't guaranteed 9K and it makes 3KK useless in certain situations because if they were to hold low and get caught by 3K then 3KK would whiff any you lose momentum for the most part.

I play other characters and I talk about them but I do not pioneer for them because they are not my main but I will support the topic.

So once again old man, you have me fucked up.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
California
Main Character
Ayane
*Sigh....* I will never understand why it's difficult for a DOA in-game discussion to be so hard for people to just sit down and talk about without either side scolding the other. If you are going to disagree with each other, it doesn't mean anyone needs to talk down to the other (Allan) that will make the other party get emotionally defensive/offended (Takeda).

These kinds of discussions are never going to be civil so long as one party continues talking with the tone they use towards the other party(s). You need to understand you cannot just to talk down to someone just because you disagree with something. You can state your opinion(s) without that tone, so others will not take what you say the wrong way.

Unless someone has shown they are being an immature rude brat or moron, then yes. But that wasn't the case here.

This thread has lost it's value for me so I'll take my leave.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Kronin

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
Allan when was the last time you placed top 4... nah let me back up. When was the last time you place top 8 at a tournament that's relevant. You ain't far from me old man. So... 0 relevant since I started coming out competitively? You can act hard all you want but I'm looking at the consistency and I haven't seen a win worth talking about since you took DID so I'm not concerned cause we ain't far off. The only time you've beaten me offline is when I just started competing on a competitive level years ago.
Well lets see, I placed top 8 at Final Round last year. I am sure that is a relevant tournament, no? Then the following Winter Brawl I dropped out of the tournament because I didn't want to play anymore and the guy that took my top 8 spot would have more than likely lost to me seeing as it was a random. Then after that I have either been absent or showing up to tournaments too late to play, like I did this year at Final Round. It's a bad habit some old school players have, Hatrify the main guy that use to do this. lol

So you have me "fucked up" with that one.. lol

I will do you one better. I offer a money match to you. FT5 for $50 or FT10 $100 since the only time I have beaten you is when you were to new the game. You are out of your fucking tree if you think you can see me in this game. I suggest you hire somebody, like, a top player. That would be the only way you don't lose money, and even still it will be a 50/50 of you losing. Just let me know the event you will be at and when can get it in.

I will not address the other stuff because it will be redundant, and you can have it.

*Sigh....* I will never understand why it's difficult for a DOA in-game discussion to be so hard for people to just sit down and talk about without either side scolding the other. If you are going to disagree with each other, it doesn't mean anyone needs to talk down to the other (Allan) that will make the other party get get emotionally defensive/offended (Takeda).

These kinds of discussions are never going to be civil so long as one party continues talking with the tone they use towards the other party(s). You need to understand you cannot just to talk down to someone just because you disagree with something. You can state your opinion(s) without that tone, so others will not take what you say the wrong way.

Unless someone has shown they are being an immature rude brat or moron, then yes. But that wasn't the case here.

This thread has lost it's value for me so I'll take my leave.
That's thing, I was making counter arguments to him. I only escalated when he did. You see his last 2 posts don't you? Also, text can have a "tone"? The more you know, I guess.
 

TakedaZX

Well-Known Member
Twilight Town
Main Character
PSN ID
TakedaZX
I will do you one better. I offer a money match to you. FT5 for $50 or FT10 $100 since the only time I have beaten you is when you were to new the game.
Done. We'll talk, tonight actually if I can catch a hold of you.

That's thing, I was making counter arguments to him. I only escalated when he did. You see his last 2 posts don't you? Also, text can have a "tone"? The more you know, I guess.
It can. It's a basic aspect of literature, here's the wiki for it. Read Here
You are not keeping him safe at -7 BT, young blood
Hey look at that, you just explained in detail CHARACTER INDIVIDUALITY! I am glad you are catching up now :cool:.
young blood.
You are uninformed in this game. If you were well informed, you'd do well performance-wise or at the very least have an opinion within reason of a character's history of game-play along with the game itself. You rather argue with me rather than learning something from me, I told you that a few days ago, and that's fine.

I know these are fantasies/comic book dreams, at least I see them that way. I just like messing with you when I see them. I won't do it anymore. This was my last time. I'll let you live the dream, young blood.

You alright with me.
Eaten by your own words. Ain't that a bitch.

What warrants any character to be - on hit. You are focusing on one move when that is EVERYWHERE in this game. That is not just exclusive to him. Learn what you are playing and why it functions the way it does. So you give him +2 or 3 on 3PP to match a couple other characters. Then what, you go in and say well his Jab should not be - whatever on hit. Again, I am not arguing that a character should be at great disadvantages on hit. It should be cut down but, tweaking that then you have to go in and do it everywhere to be fair.
First, I'm going to reanswer this. I do agree with you, there are more than a few discrepancies in every character to be questioned. I'll also make my point again. Stop leveling me down because I don't talk openly about more characters than my own.

I talk Hayate openly because I specialize in him like you specialize in Kasumi. (Here comes the condescending attitude).

But you ARE misinformed and with @Tenryuga as my witness, I've talked about some issues I've seen in Jann Lee, Eliot, Ryu, Hitomi and countless others but I simply chime in rather than start the topic. If someone REALLY wants to fix those problems they should say something for their character. I'll stay in my lane then help push when I see fit. Obviously you don't need to give me an explanation on low throws being punishable post landing them.

On the subject of playstyle...

3PP being + on NH will not change his focus one bit. It just means for a move like his 3PP, which:
  • cannot effectively be delayed
  • only results in fantasy launch options not guaranteed ones
  • and can be blocked on reaction to being clipped on NH.
will not result in his momentum being interrupted because he gambled on a read and guessed correctly to them not blocking it.

In theory, none of these characters should be hitting this string on NH but it does happen so I stand by it.

Making the Wind Dash K launch doesn't have to change the focus. But I'd like to break this down and see your full point of view because you've only addressed the ideal of the unsafety on the move. We can talk about that but address me on the move itself and the change I proposed.

Making PPK relaunch higher to make PPKK land on a more consistent basis doesn't change his focus. It just means for keeping the opponent in your no go zone, you can get more damage in a juggle and keep them close. We argued about PPKK's utility with electric floors. PPP, 7K does the same and does more damage so it's irrelevant.

Increasing the PPP relaunch at around 4 hits in a juggle doesn't change his focus, it just means if you do dabble into the stun game deep enough, you can finish in a flashier way for a littl more damage. If you have the execution, you don't need this combo. If you PP6PK instead, you get true oki to work with at the wall.

Now when I ask for a sitdown stun off of 3K because he needs the guaranteed damage, then we can say that I'm stepping out of his boundaries.

@iHajinShinobi You're definitely right. I'm wrong in that.

I'm sorry you got involved in the shit show but I do value your opinion. I valued AP's at one time... and to a certain extent I still do since he did teach me a lot in my infant days on FSD.

But understand that seniority does not translate to a state of being godsend nor does it allow for a condescending attitude. (But that's not directed at you.)

@AP Ever worked a job in retail? One of the main things they're "supposed" to teach you is the idea of micro-mannerisms. In a nutshell, the point is that it doesn't matter what you meant. It's how the customer takes what you said. If they're offended: it's on you.

Obviously you're not trying to sell me something but the reality is it doesn't matter if this "young blood" shouldn't get offended by your obviously not condescending way of speaking since you didn't mean it that way. The fact is, you set your tone. I picked up on it. End of story.

You ain't the Kyrie of DOA.

Don't talk that way to me. You haven't earned that respect. Not on a player level or on a personal level.
 
Last edited:
Forgot your password?