The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[Regick]

Running up to someone doesn't defeat the purpose of spacing, this is not what spacing and neutral control is about. Simply moving away isn't spacing. You just so happening to choose the worst tournament set of me does not prove a point, nor does it validate anything.

Never said that. I just said: "Now if your opponent has a very good movement/spacing and is good at reading and baiting, you will get that whiff punishing on reaction isn't always the easiest thing to do".

Ayane's neutral strike speed is perfect "for her", considering her 6P alone is a high crush towards jabs. Jab and 2P cover the neutral against mid and low strike speed from the cast, as well as 5K doing the same thing against mid strike and differing tools from various characters (specific punch parries, sabakis, i12 mids). With so many high crushes she can utilize on read. Ayane also doesn't have any issues fighting faster strike speed, she does not have issues during the CQC (close quarters combat) neutral.

I wrote: "covering the distance in this game is not that hard (especially in some stages)". There are also very small stages where spacing out your opponent isn't that easy. In those situations you are at disadvantage against characters with better close range offence and neutral game. I know all the things you wrote pretty well, the propriety of her moves, when to use them, etc. And I totally agree with you. But I also think that there are characters which are better at close range then her. Using i10 jabs to beat i11 mids is a good thing but it's also risky against characters with i11 mids and at the same time very good high crushers (e.g. Gen Fu, Zack).

This is untrue, because you're not going to be finishing strings or even utilizing her strings so often during the neutral. You are playing her incorrectly if you do. Ayane's mix up influences stance transition, threshold frame trapping, 50/50 must-holds (and she has a lot of them) and utilizing 6K/6K2K (frustration tool), 66K string, 3H+K, PK/BT H+K, 6P3, P+KP/BTP+KP, BT3K, etc.

That's true but I've also found players which are very good at reading and punish also free canceled strings. I said Ayane is still very solid at close range, but having the option to end your strings and being safe is a way better thing. I rarely continue her strings though. The only strings I often continue (against non grapplers characters) is 6PK/PP6PK when they block my delayed 6P (I delay it most of the time because you have a legit throw mix-up there). If I get a CH or they duck on my 6P I usually go for the stun game or I continue with K in case I want to play the oki game. If non grapplers try to punish 6PK with i5 throw, I throw break on reaction or option select the throw break depending of what I want to do afterwards. Trust me, I know how to play this character correctly.

Every time I see someone trying to say this character is just average or whatever, it's the exact same thing. People basing things from their online play experience. And I end up having to repeat myself over and over again because no one really understands this character at all. There hasn't been a single Ayane player since Xdest and I that has any real understanding of this character's play design.

Actually, I play more offline than online. And I agree with you. I can easily say that I've never played a player who plays Ayane correctly in my entire life except some matches I did against Xdest (my Hayate vs his Ayane) many years ago on DOA4. It seems it's so hard for people (even players which are very good with other chars) to understand this character's play design.
I still remember that when I used to play DOA4 in the first years my playstyle was almost identical to Xdest's. Many players told me that. My costume was also the same lol, but it was a coincidence. Anyway I continued playing that game for years, so my playstyle at the end was very similar but with untechables (and SE) added to it. I remember Xdest preferred going for guaranteed damage (and knew just a few untechables) while I was using untechables (which lead to unholdables and stuff) more often (I still keep my best untechables for each weight class wrote in a document, lol). But it was just a playstyle preference, both ways were good and correct. Xdest was an excellent Ayane player and a very talented guy, the only thing I didn't like about him was his decision to do not SE. In my opinion in DOA4 SE was even more important/useful/effective than how it is now in DOA5.

My post was referred to people in general anyway, not directly to you. I admit it could seem like that lol, because it's right after yours and I linked that video with you and Master. But believe me, it wasn't to discredit you. I'm really sorry if it seemed like that. And also, don't get me wrong: I have a good opinion of you. I think you are a good player and it seems you are one of the very few who like myself really understands how this character should be played.
I also apologize for my bad English. But it's not my native language.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

That's true but I've also found players which are very good at reading and punish also free canceled strings. I said Ayane is still very solid at close range, but having the option to end your strings and being safe is a way better thing.

Finishing strings with moderate safety is not "way better" because it implies it is no longer your turn to strike. The jab Ayane has implies it is always doing two things at once do to the delay (i10-i17) between P and PP, and the fact that jab changes her stance position. You cannot read anything after jab has happened, at all, it is a guess. And I also mentioned that P4P is part of this, it is there to stop someone's attempt at button presses (conditioning).

The fact that Ayane has so much delay in her strings allows for smart, but excessive free cancelling/delays that actually make people guess when you hone that ability. I have been scoring more counter hits within' the last 3-4 months since two weeks after TFC last year when I analyzed what my strengths and weaknesses are. More counter hits than I've gotten throughout last year.

Ayane actually has a lot of safety in this game, and again, as I said, it doesn't come from strings entirely. If you feel like you need to go past PP so often then you are not doing anything to condition or open your opponent up enough (or just flat out making them commit/overextend). Needing to go past PP often just means your opponent has to sit on block and "wait" because they aren't going to respect you.

I also said in my earlier quote that smaller stages do not diminish good neutral spacing ability if your neutral game is really good.

Maybe it's just me, but I do not feel limited in CQC with this character at all. And it isn't biased speaking just because I main Ayane. My neutral game was the main bit I exercised and improved at throughout last year. Every tournament I attended and played in gave me a lot of experience, especially the TFC weekend (and what I learned there is that even most tournament level players in the U.S. have serious issues fighting footsies and a strong neutral game).

Maybe it's just because of my neutral game being really strong these days and my understanding to maintain a good and semi-unreadable rhythm, and my defense are why I don't feel what you feel. Because I don't feel limited on any stage I'm playing, I only feel limited if my knowledge is lacking in a particular match up or I need more experience at something in particular.

Again, smaller stages do not limit this character capability at all.

There are other characters that can apply excellent spacing, but they do not have the ability to control neutral spacing or to occupy various strike ranges so well as Ayane does. With that said, having great spacing from a character also doesn't imply they won't or shouldn't lose at it, it's only ever going to be as good as a player's patience and understanding for it is. There are lots of moments when you do not have to commit to anything with this character.

Influencing strong movement and neutral control is great pressure with Ayane alone.

In regards to Stagger Escape, in DOA4 stuns were barely unique and stagger escape allowed you to escape stun almost the same way. There wasn't much of a difference to advantage for stun animations, holding also allowed you to escape stuns so fast. Stagger escape works well in the DOA5 series and you are not going to stagger escape every stun the same way you could in DOA4.

Because unlike DOA4, stuns in this game are actually unique per stun, you also cannot hold instantly out of most stuns either (you can't hold instantly out of Ayane's 6K), two very good things about this game's stun system.

You mind linking me to some of your play? I am curious to see what you're doing as Ayane.

No need to apologize, I understand what you're saying.

 

[Matt Ponton]

This topic should be scrapped in it's entirety and completely recreated considering Last Round. All the characters aren't even on this list.

This is the DOA5 (Vanilla) tier list discussion. The Last Round tier list discussion hasn't been made yet as it will be built off the DOA5 Ultimate tier list discussion in the DOA5 Last Round System Discussion board (This is the DOA5 Discussion board). Since you can't play Ultimate anymore, the first update for its tier list will be the Last Round tier list progress update..

 

[Regick]

Finishing strings with moderate safety is not "way better" because it implies it is no longer your turn to strike. The jab Ayane has implies it is always doing two things at once do to the delay (i10-i17) between P and PP, and the fact that jab changes her stance position. You cannot read anything after jab has happened, at all, it is a guess. And I also mentioned that P4P is part of this, it is there to stop someone's attempt at button presses (conditioning).

Ayane actually has a lot of safety in this game, and again, as I said, it doesn't come from strings entirely. If you feel like you need to go past PP so often then you are not doing anything to condition or open your up enough. Needing to go past PP often just means your opponent has to sit on block and "wait" because they aren't going to respect you.

No, I don't delay PP, I delay PP6P. After PP you have a legit mix-up between throw and 6P if you delay the 6P. If you do not delay it you nullify the mix-up there. And I said that I rarely finish my strings, the only string I often finish is 6PK. But It does not mean that I use this string often as a pressure tool (because there are a billion ways to apply pressure with Ayane), neither that I have always to finish that string. It's just the "safest" option you have there if they block the 6P.
The main point of P4P is to have something good/safe and mid to catch sidesteps after her i10 jab which is still her fastest attack. It's not a tracking move but it works exactly as Kokoro's PK, Rachel's PK, Akira's PP and so on. And also, yes, it's useful to stop someone's attempt at button presses.

I also said in my earlier quote that smaller stages do not diminish good neutral spacing ability if your neutral game is really good.

Maybe it's just me, but I do not feel limited in CQC with this character at all. And it isn't biased speaking just because I main Ayane. My neutral game was the main bit I exercised and improved at throughout last year. Every tournament I attended and played in gave me a lot of experience, especially the TFC weekend (and what I learned there is that most even at tournament have serious issues fighting footsies and a strong neutral game).

Maybe it's just because of my neutral game being really strong these days and my understanding to maintain a good and semi-unreadable rhythm, and my defense are why I don't feel what you feel. Because I don't feel limited on any stage I'm playing, I only feel limited if my knowledge is lacking in a particular match up or I need more experience at something in particular.

Honestly I do not feel limited too in smaller stages, never said that. My spacing is pretty effective in the closest stages too. But I think that some characters do have better possibilities then her at close range. In the case I'd win easily in small stages against a top Gen Fu player I personally wouldn't change my idea about the match up. I think that it happens because I'm good and I know what I do. But I assume my opponent isn't playing as he should with that character or that I'm simply a stronger player.

You mind linking me to some of your play? I am curious to see what you're doing as Ayane.

There aren't matches of myself playing around, just some DOA4 matches (on Youtube) I did with my sub characters and one DOA5 Vanilla match with Kokoro. But of course, I'll record some matches of my Ayane when I can and I'll link you them.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

No, I don't delay PP, I delay PP6P.

You should try it out so you don't feel obligated going past PP so often. Jab and PP(delay) is a legitimate mix up with jab, PP, 2P, P4P and strings.

The main point of P4P is to have something good/safe and mid to catch sidesteps after her i10 jab which is still her fastest attack.

Yeah, I just said that twice already. That's what "stopping button presses" implied.

 

[crapoZK]

Never said that. I just said: "Now if your opponent has a very good movement/spacing and is good at reading and baiting, you will get that whiff punishing on reaction isn't always the easiest thing to do".



I wrote: "covering the distance in this game is not that hard (especially in some stages)". There are also very small stages where spacing out your opponent isn't that easy. In those situations you are at disadvantage against characters with better close range offence and neutral game. I know all the things you wrote pretty well, the propriety of her moves, when to use them, etc. And I totally agree with you. But I also think that there are characters which are better at close range then her. Using i10 jabs to beat i11 mids is a good thing but it's also risky against characters with i11 mids and at the same time very good high crushers (e.g. Gen Fu, Zack).


That's true but I've also found players which are very good at reading and punish also free canceled strings. I said Ayane is still very solid at close range, but having the option to end your strings and being safe is a way better thing. I rarely continue her strings though. The only strings I often continue (against non grapplers characters) is 6PK/PP6PK when they block my delayed 6P (I delay it most of the time because you have a legit throw mix-up there). If I get a CH or they duck on my 6P I usually go for the stun game or I continue with K in case I want to play the oki game. If non grapplers try to punish 6PK with i5 throw, I throw break on reaction or option select the throw break depending of what I want to do afterwards. Trust me, I know how to play this character correctly.



Actually, I play more offline than online. And I agree with you. I can easily say that I've never played a player who plays Ayane correctly in my entire life except some matches I did against Xdest (my Hayate vs his Ayane) many years ago on DOA4. It seems it's so hard for people (even players which are very good with other chars) to understand this character's play design.
I still remember that when I used to play DOA4 in the first years my playstyle was almost identical to Xdest's. Many players told me that. My costume was also the same lol, but it was a coincidence. Anyway I continued playing that game for years, so my playstyle at the end was very similar but with untechables (and SE) added to it. I remember Xdest preferred going for guaranteed damage (and knew just a few untechables) while I was using untechables (which lead to unholdables and stuff) more often (I still keep my best untechables for each weight class wrote in a document, lol). But it was just a playstyle preference, both ways were good and correct. Xdest was an excellent Ayane player and a very talented guy, the only thing I didn't like about him was his decision to do not SE. In my opinion in DOA4 SE was even more important/useful/effective than how it is now in DOA5.

My post was referred to people in general anyway, not directly to you. I admit it could seem like that lol, because it's right after yours and I linked that video with you and Master. But believe me, it wasn't to discredit you. I'm really sorry if it seemed like that. And also, don't get me wrong: I have a good opinion of you. I think you are a good player and it seems you are one of the very few who like myself really understands how this character should be played.
I also apologize for my bad English. But it's not my native language.

Zack's i11 6P doesn't crush highs though.

 

[Tempest]

Zack's i11 6P doesn't crush highs though.

He was saying Zack has good high crushes and an 11 frame mid, which would put ayane at a disadvantage close up.

 

[Regick]

Finishing strings with moderate safety is not "way better" because it implies it is no longer your turn to strike.

Of course, but I just wanted to say that, in case I want to finish a string, being safe after it is a way better thing than not being safe. It doesn't mean I would finish my strings so often because of that. It's just a better situation in case you decide to finish a string. In case I would never finish a string though (maybe because it's unsafe) my opponent will stop respecting it and will start punishing my free canceled strings.

You cannot read anything after jab has happened, at all, it is a guess.

Yes in fact Ayane has really good legitimate mix-ups after her jab alone (e.g. P, 6P/ P, T/P, 2P/P, 6K and so on).

There are other characters that can apply excellent spacing, but they do not have the ability to control neutral spacing or to occupy various strike ranges so well as Ayane does.

This is very true. Also her integrated movement gives her low state which makes it even more evasive than how it already is because of the movement itself.

In regards to Stagger Escape, in DOA4 stuns were barely unique and stagger escape allowed you to escape stun almost the same way. There wasn't much of a difference to advantage for stun animations, holding also allowed you to escape stuns so fast. Stagger escape works well in the DOA5 series and you are not going to stagger escape every stun the same way you could in DOA4.

SE is extremely useful and important in both games. But in my opinion it was even more useful in DOA4.
In DOA5 there are different types of stun that can't be stagger escaped at all. And also there are many sitdown stuns which lead to guaranteed combos that make SE useless in those situations.
Furthermore, in DOA5 you have guaranteed damage on the wall, while in DOA4 you were able (with a good SE) to almost nullify your opponent's wall game.

Zack's i11 6P doesn't crush highs though.

I know that, I just said: "Using i10 jabs to beat i11 mids is a good thing but it's also risky against characters with i11 mids and at the same time very good high crushers (e.g. Gen Fu, Zack)".
In the case of Gen Fu it would be: 6P (the i11 mid) and 3P (the "very good" high crusher).

 

[iHajinShinobi]

If I put you into a sitdown then I deserve to be rewarded good damage. Same for wall slams. DOA4's structure involved guessing into guessing after situation. I never liked that. You should never be allowed to slow escape a wall slam or even hold out of one, lol.