The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[DR2K]

I didn't imply both characters had a similiar vortex. I am implying that Ayane's vortex is just as much of a threat if she catches you in it because she gains control, whether she counter hits you, loops you, or you block her. She is in a good position no matter what.

I have to constantly repeat the same thing because it's true. Look at the last thing you said to me;



That shows how naive you are. You want me to speak in a manner that benefits other players, while you keep trying to say "If Helena knocks you down, lol she wins lol." No, there is always a chance to fight back and gain momentum against any character, there is not automatic win condition for any character in this game.

What is her vortex, how is it as loopable as Helena's, etc? Helena's vortex is the best in the game bar none. Does it off any launch hieght, sacrifices little to no damage allowing her to do it with impunity. The only way out is to guess regardless of the character she's fighting.

When I said uses her I meant use her and place top 3 in a tournament. Something Helena does consistantly.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Ayane gets her vortex at all of her launch heights too, literally. You have to guess out of Ayane's vortex as well, but neither are unstoppable. There are characters with effective parries which lessens their options (still a guess but it's still strong against the advantage).

Read the part of my guide that gives some insight about the vortex in the Ayane forums. Ayane isn't placing top 3 (I made top 5 at NCR which is pretty damn good for a guy out of practice) because no one knows how to play her correctly.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Helena only places top 3 with the same players each time. If there was a little more diversity of players doing well with her I'd be more inclined to say she was top/high tier material.

Helena wins more than Sarah, Lei Fang and Ayane and there is no way in hell she is stronger than they are. I'm pretty certain players like Xcal, Emann and Mamba would place top 3 regardless of what character they used.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Tournament placings should not be a talking point for character match-ups.

 

[DR2K]

Tournament placings should not be a talking point for character match-ups.

It absolutely should. Since that's where match ups get played in the real world more than anything else. Especially when the major point is that a character has a tool that overrides any match up.

Helena only places top 3 with the same players each time. If there was a little more diversity of players doing well with her I'd be more inclined to say she was top/high tier material.

Helena wins more than Sarah, Lei Fang and Ayane and there is no way in hell she is stronger than they are. I'm pretty certain players like Xcal, Emann and Mamba would place top 3 regardless of what character they used.

Players pick characters that can win tournmanets. LF and Ayane do not place as high as Sarah and Helena because these characters constantly keep themselves in advantage through most of the match. Sarah is probably the best character in the neteral game, but Helena's vortex is simply too good for any character to deal with.

 

[Prince Adon]

Why waste time arguing with scrubs who lack so much experience at the game other than playing online? Tournament placements do not determind match ups. Don't be stupid. Especially considering the lack of experience and offline players.

 

[Matt Ponton]

It absolutely should. Since that's where match ups get played in the real world more than anything else. Especially when the major point is that a character has a tool that overrides any match up.

There's a difference arguing about the popularity for character choice and arguing about the tools that character has for the reason of their popularity and placings. Gen Fu's been arguably top tier in all versions of DOA. However, just because the players winning tournaments didn't use him doesn't decrease his tier in any way.

 

[DR2K]

There's a difference arguing about the popularity for character choice and arguing about the tools that character has for the reason of their popularity and placings. Gen Fu's been arguably top tier in all versions of DOA. However, just because the players winning tournaments didn't use him doesn't decrease his tier in any way.

But why should unproven characters that look great on paper be placed up higer than proven ones at the highest level of play?

I'm not arguing popularity, I'm using results. Top players do gravitate torwards top characters universally and Genfu has placed top 3 in a major or 2.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Because maybe the few people who use one character may not be playing the character to it's full potential OR their opponent is a better player than them?

 

[Hades]

Okay, Mr. Wah I don't see anything wrong with Rig's place in the tier list as of now. My only question is why is Kokoro-Rig a 6-4 for Kokoro? I personally believe that it's a 5-5 because bar kokoro's 2H+K she doesn't have too much to help herself against Rig's Flamingo Pressure. Also Rig can check/stuff that 2H+K with his 2K. Maybe over looking something huge, but that matchup confused me. I'm not sure what Kokoro can do to Rig once she does get out of pressure. Maybe start her throw mixup game but I'm not entirely certain what makes that matchup in her favor that much

Other then that, Rig can be finalized :]

 

[DR2K]

Because maybe the few people who use one character may not be playing the character to it's full potential OR their opponent is a better player than them?

How do we define full potential? Since match ups are based on higest level of play. Which usually are shown at tornaments or major gatherings.

 

[RubinRoon]

How do we define full potential? Since match ups are based on higest level of play. Which usually are shown at tornaments or major gatherings.

Imo match ups should be about comparing the tools of the characters, which everybody can figure out in training mode, instead of how people use or dont use said tools.

 

[DR2K]

Imo match ups should be about comparing the tools of the characters, which everybody can figure out in training mode, instead of how people use or dont use said tools.

There's no proof as to how good a tool is until it's put to real life tests.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

It absolutely should. Since that's where match ups get played in the real world more than anything else. Especially when the major point is that a character has a tool that overrides any match up.

So if one player, lets say Mamba places top 3 with Helena consistently but no other player can even make top 20 with her would you say she was top tier because of that? Because I would say that a good player is simply carrying a crap character.

 

[DR2K]

So if one player, lets say Mamba places top 3 with Helena consistently but no other player can even make top 20 with her would you say she was top tier because of that? Because I would say that a good player is simply carrying a crap character.

I'd say it's a bunch of crap players that need to step their game up. That isn't the case with Helena though, not in this reality.

Paper tier lists are just glorified wish lists derived in theory with little facts to support them.

 

[Prince Adon]

I'd say it's a bunch of crap players that need to step their game up. That isn't the case with Helena though, not in this reality.

Paper tier lists are just glorified wish lists derived in theory with little facts to support them.

Here goes an example for your lousy theory. Xdest and Hajin are the only two who knows how to use Ayane. No other Ayane player have yet to learn how to utilize the character tools to use her properly. Xdest doesn't play anymore sadly and Hajin have not had the opportunity to show it. No one on the ec nor mw have learned the character(that may change with PL). So you pretty much judging a match up by a character like Helena who been used to full potential on tournaments vs a character that has not? Again this is stupid and don't determind match up. Ayane may be the best character in the game. And this is from experience not playing online all day and judging what characters I hear about the most offline. Judging from paper also may be better than judging by no experience.

 

[DR2K]

Here goes an example for your lousy theory. Xdest and Hajin are the only two who knows how to use Ayane. No other Ayane player have yet to learn how to utilize the character tools to use her properly. Xdest doesn't play anymore sadly and Hajin have not had the opportunity to show it. No one on the ec nor mw have learned the character(that may change with PL). So you pretty much judging a match up by a character like Helena who been used to full potential on tournaments vs a character that has not? Again this is stupid and don't determind match up. Ayane may be the best character in the game. And this is from experience not playing online all day and judging what characters I hear about the most offline. Judging from paper also may be better than judging by no experience.

Show me the receipts.

 

[Shade]

Ayanes a strong character. I use her in select matchups because her basic tools are so good in them. However, I think Hajins overselling her strengths to a fault here. 64H is a great tool no doubt but in no way is it a great substitute for a parry because it fails to do what a parry does which is handle both mid P and mid K. Nor does it shutdown someone from using a mid punch entirely. Furthermore, if a player thinks the Ayane wants to hold that's huge damage potential for the opposing player either by throwing or an unholdable stun setup. But obviously when you start talking about what a player may or may not do in a given situation, especially tournament play, you begin to get away from the purpose of the tier list which is to talk about a characters tools that are available in any given situation. In general I think too much credit is given to advanced holds when measuring a characters strength.

Quick example being Lei Fang and the things we don't talk about:

-She can beaten out of all options except 2k from her punch parry including the catch grab with an 11F or faster move And 2k can be SE'ed.
-Parry abuse leaves her open for extreme punishment (something current lei fangs get blown up for in tournament play, so its a situational fault)
-Cant control spacing at mid and long range because all of her decent options are side steppable/Free steppable.
-Very linear after starting her non kick strings
-1P+K is probably the fifth most reactionable hold in the game. It's like holding a power blow. But if it helps you win online go for it.

And that's just a couple things. That isn't to say shes bad, but alot of the tools shes given props for, aren't nearly as strong as people make them out to be. Realistically she needs buffs more than nerfs.

I also disagree with the Ayane matchups for Christie, Kasumi and Jann Lee because they all have strong options to deal with her and her tools. At worst they are 5-5 for each of those characters on paper(tier wise). Sarah is arguable as well. I'd encourage you play to the better players of those characters if you haven't already some more. And i'm positive you already know who they are. Still, I do agree she has the advantage over Helena and she beats mila up decently enough to make it 6-4 in her favor. But it is what it is.

 

[Prince Adon]

I recommand people put more learning into Ayane before they decide to sell her short.

 

[SchwarzPhy]

If you look at the current match-ups Ayane has the second highest total points, I don't think anyone is selling her short.