This game was a real treasure.

True


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Raansu

Well-Known Member
TricK x DigitaL said:
We're on the same chess board my friend . . .We will see where 10 years has gotten you & we will see what 10 years has gotten me; I think the difference is already showing.

What?

TricK x DigitaL said:
If you were a true fan of the franchise you would love every game & see the potential that every game has despite it's flaws.

True fan? Dude I played DoA4 for its entire lifetime despite disliking how it played, but I still played it because it was DoA. With that said, just because you're a fan of a series doesn't mean you have to like a bad product. DoA4 was not as good as the older DoA games. If disliking a flawed game that went backwards to how the franchise played then fine, I'm not a true fan, even though that concept is absolutely ridiculous.

TricK x DigitaL said:
You think 'sexualization' is why this game isn't in the FGC? This franchise isn't in the FGC because this franchise carries no passion.

Sexualization has little to do with why this game is disliked. It has everything to do with how the game plays and the stigma of defensive holds and DoA4 turning the game into a pure RPS didn't help the games reputation with the FGC either. It actually made it worse, especially after DoA3 was on the right track of becoming a solid fighting game.

Stuns in water & getting hit by cars always provide opportunity for combo

Stuns in water are fine. Part of DoA is positional awareness on the map and water is in a static position. The cars and the cat though? No, fuck off. Getting hit by a car was beyond stupid, especially when most of the time you couldn't see it coming.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
For some reason DOA4 attracted a lot of people to the game. Even though I played DOA before it, it was DOA4 where I started taking things more seriously, where I put in the effort to become a respectable player.

I used to have discussions with Rikuto about DOA4 over at DOAWorld. I'm sure he remembers. In any case, I was heavily on the Pro-DOA4 side, saying it was superior to many other fighting games exactly because you could get out of anything at any moment. It was more 'realistic' because in a real fight there are no guaranteed setups, and the one that comes out on top in the end, is the most skillful one, because he beats the odds.

But ultimately, after I played VF5 in particular, I noticed how flawed DOA4 really is. Not only DOA4, but DOA in general. The thing is, DOA4 took it to a whole other level. Any fighting game, where the skillful player feels that randomness consistently puts him at an unfair disadvantage, is a bad fighting game. It's one of the reasons the DOA4 community (online in particular) was so hostile, because the game was pure BS. And the higher the level of play, the more random it becomes. A fighting game should be the opposite... It should be random for casuals, but consistent for high level of play. But when randomly holding puts you at an advantage, you're rewarding players for practically mashing, and that's not a good thing.

It all starts with basics, and the basics is the neutral game. And well, DOA4's neutral game is the worst out of the whole series, simply because you're better off waiting rather than attacking at all. DOA5 still has this, but to a lesser degree.

There are a few things I really do love of DOA4 though.
-I already mentioned this one somewhere else on here, but, the graphics. They are so clean, which makes it look very good. I dislike the grittiness of the other DOA games. I wish they would go back to that style, but apparently DOA6 is still retaining that dark gritty look.
- The other thing I liked is the effect of the charge attacks. There was this 'energy wave effect' or whatever you want to call it when you used a charge attack. It looked extremely cool and made the charge attack feel powerful. For some reason, the power blow charge effect didn't achieve the same thing for me.
- The online lobby system. Speaks for itself really, although it did have some flaws.
- The vaulting over objects/walls etc. Even though it was mechanically useless because you could hold out of everything, it was on many stages. DOA5 barely has them, which is a shame.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
TricK x DigitaL said:
It is up to top players to give people a reason to want to see it; to give people a reason to want to play it. Look at Super Smash Bros. - it's a garbage broken unbalanced game but the top players gave people a reason to want to play it; to want to see it.

Probably because melee is actually a better competitive fighting game than DoA4, which isn't a difficult bar to pass.

TricK x DigitaL said:
The very good & respectable matches are few & far between in DoA. Most of the time people just mash to stay safe & try to perform the highest damaging combo rather than respecting the neutral & going for good force-techs-

I can literally say this about the masses of pretty much every fighting game.....You know how many people I came across in VF5 who would just try to mash out of things? And this wasn't even console, this was Japanese players in the arcades. Average players panic easy and have mediocre neutral games.

TricK x DigitaL said:
Almost every fighting game to ever be taken seriously has a filter or some kind of roulette between players.for fair stage picks. (Or at the very least a multitude of neutral stages-not to mention it looks absolutely terrible when a 'top' player drops their combo to a slope in competitive play.) 2D fighters-games that don't even need stage bans have some kind of filter or gentleman agreement on neutral stages. Not DoA; DoA is literally the only game in the FGC that allows random stage selection. If the environmental prowess is to be considered great, than why aren't players even allowed to use it to their advantage. It's going to be left to a dice roll? Yeah that's fair. Can't turn off danger zones for a more fair match or else you'll get shamed. Also no water stuns in DoA5 quite an irony for the moniker "Adapt"

Adapt to what? Adapt to a dice-roll? Let's be fair here - Adapt is a loose-term for doa5

Because the stage awareness is part of the game. And the only stages that give any specific player a major advantage are the ones with ceilings, which you can still avoid by forcing the player to the open area, thus making random the perfectly acceptable map selection as every character in the roster can take advantage of the danger zones. So yes, its completely fair and no, turning danger zones off is stupid. Its part of DoA's blood.

As for the water thing? Who cares? I'm honestly indifferent about it, but a lot of people didn't care for it, mostly because of stages in the past and in doa5 that were all ice/wet stages. The rainy stage in doa2u was extremely annoying to play in, but if we had no stages like that and slippery areas were in static spots? Then I would be fine with water working like it did in the past because you can position yourself away from the spot.
 

Forlorn Penguin

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Tengu was given adequate compensation by having the best pounce as well as the only character to have an aerial low-throw & an aerial throw. His offensive hold was also dangerous near the wall & his combos provided opportunities to get the opponent to the wall faster. His wall pressure was very dangerous.

This is absolutely insane.

Can a mod close this thread please? @Brute

Don't want any DOA4 dick-measuring contests.

Better yet, can we just have it deleted?
 

ryu_highabusa

Well-Known Member
Is this an elaborate ploy to get us to start a DOA4 lobby and wreck you? I don't have a 360 hooked up or an active XBL sub. >:/

The only way to show you how stupid this game is to show you.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
I used to throw those lines out all the time years ago. Lemme give you some advice, posts like that are pointless and prove nothing in the scope of these kind of debates.
 

crapoZK

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Oh sorry am I supposed to cherry-pick people's statement to give a response?
You kinda give the guys no choice but to cherry-pick....
Like....
You write PhD-length essays where essentially only 2 things are realistically worth responding to. There are ways to get your point out without all the waffle surrounding it my bro.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Lol look who's talkin- look at your posts- you've proven less than me. You seem to think that the Dead or Alive franchise is popular enough to begin dismissing your own history. I've talked to many tournament organizers throughout the years & have asked alot of people in the FGC about Dead or Alive; trust me I'll let you keep your sanity & whatever shimmer of hope you think you have. You have a LONG ways to go averaging 1,000 tourny entrants per national. Not that many people really like DoA & it doesn't help that the community isn't all that kind & agreeable. How can you expect other people to respect this franchise when you hardly carry respect for it yourself?

1.) I'm fully aware of DoA's history. I've been around this community for almost 15 years and have been playing DoA since the dreamcast days. I'm well aware that doa is a smaller game and a smaller community, especially with the tournament scene, but I'll take the small steps we have gotten with DoA5 and its 70-80 participants over doa4 and its average 8-10 people showing up....if that.

2.) At this point I don't care who respects the franchise or not and I don't care about how many tournament organizers you have talked to. They either like the game or they don't, I only care about this community and the future of this franchise. I respect what TN has done with DoA5 and I hope they improve upon it with DoA6. I would like to see them walk back on some of the changes/nerfs they made in ultimate and LR as the final patches of vanilla I consider the best versions, but I digress (and slightly biased as I loved the guaranteed force tech I had with Hitomi and her old SS kick which was the 46k spin kick before they changed it to a worthless knee that didn't stun well.)

In regards to DoA4 and whatever respect it deserved. Ya I'm not going to sit there and pretend a game is good just because I'm a fan of the franchise. We tried to support it and at the end of the day it just wasn't possible. Competitively DoA4 was a flawed game. This is widely accepted among the community that played that game at top levels and also more or less why many of them simply stopped playing DoA4 when the resurgence of fighting games began and better fighting games popped up. Its the nature of the beast. Itagaki had a very solid foundation with DoA2 and 3 and decided to shoot himself in the foot with DoA4. It is what it is, no point crying over it anymore. All I can do at this point is advocate my opinion and point out the history and hope and pray DoA6 does not fall back to the flaws that made DoA4 a bad competitive game.

You kinda give the guys no choice but to cherry-pick....
Like....
You write PhD-length essays where essentially only 2 things are realistically worth responding to. There are ways to get your point out without all the waffle surrounding it my bro.

Length of his posts don't bother me (points to my own wall lol), but one of his responses just made no sense to me. I didn't know how to reply to it. I wasn't trying to be mean, I just didn't know what to take away from it.

I'd love DOA4 to be backwards compatible on Xbox One...

I'd honestly be surprised if there were still lobbies you could find.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
-Let the initial match be random stage selection
-Allow the losing player a counter pick stage
-Return to random stage selection with both the stage randomly selected in the initial match removed & the counter-pick removed
---Allow a gentleman agreement on any stage that has not yet been filtered during random stage selection (For example Aircraft Carrier - or Tri-tower Heliport)
---Allow a run-back. (Random or on the same stage)

What? No. That's dumb. There's no reason to let a player pick a stage. Hell, even in lobbies I get annoyed at people who pick stages and usually boot them if they keep doing it. Random stage select is how it should always be done.

If tournament organizers don't know what to do then they should ask the community. Back when DoA5 first came out someone in Florida contacted me about getting it into CEO and I helped organize two events there with the standard rules that the community agreed on. I'm not sure what you mean by fair brackets though. A bracket is a bracket, there's no such thing as fair. You either win and move up the bracket or lose and go to the losers bracket and work you way through that bracket.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Do you use your brain to speak - or do you use your brain to think? It clearly looks like you just use your brain to speak.

And with that I'm done. I enjoy debating about all things DoA, but I have not attacked you once. This is completely uncalled for.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
I would say that some high-level competitive players would be more likely to pick a neutral stage out of respect for their opponent. Also mid-level players can have more even ground against a tougher opponent if they choose - By allowing this, play-style is honored in relation to the player without feeling 'random' - This feeling of randomness (which is why you hate doa4) is how others feel when left to a random stage pick
So you're actually for pampering weaker players to increase their chances of winning? Yeah no. Fighting games don't need any SJW nonsense in them. You can leave that for the warm-up before the tournament and the casual rounds after. Picking stages for advantage or disadvantage of anyone undermines the point of the tournament.

The stage being random has nothing to do with the randomness we're talking about. Randomness in gameplay is completely different than picking a random stage. Everyone can see which stage you're fighting on before the fight starts, and if you're a good player, you know what you have to avoid that would give your opponent an advantage, and what you need to do to put your opponent at a disadvantage on that specific stage...
Want to talk randomness in stages? That is when you have an invisible cheetah, an invisible flying dinosaur or an invisible car hit you for no reason. THAT is randomness, and letting the weaker player choose a stage doesn't fix that.

There is no stage more fair than the Tatami stage btw. No one can disagree with that. Guess that's the only stage we should play then. Sarcasm aside, picking a random stage is actually important because it adds to the adaptability factor without deliberately putting anyone in an advantage or disadvantage. No one has control before the fight even happens, and that is a good thing.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
It's not pampering a weaker player
Sure it isn't... :thumbs up:

Yeah - exactly if your a good player you have nothing to worry about -
Then why would picking anything other than random stage select matter? Oh right. To pamper the weaker player. If you're going to discuss something, at least be consistent and honest.

Did you consider that this feeling of 'randomness' is what prevents newer players from wanting to take this game seriously competitively
First you have to tell me how the DOA5 stages themselves are more random than the DOA4 ones. I'll be waiting.

It pains me that a player can work so hard & then when they actually show up to a tournament they just get put in an unfair seat to which they are forced to adapt to a dice-roll- it's a gamble.
You still haven't explained how a stage is an unfair seat. And that's the reason you have to beat your opponent more than once. I'm not a fan of best of 3. In my opinion, to knock someone out, the matches have to be best of 5, three rounds. And yes, random stages. The loser is already allowed to switch characters. Allowing to switch character and stage is too much. There is nothing wrong with random stages.

Random holds are nullified by environmental factors such as Water & strong hits towards a wall or over an object (which you can just walk around if the opponent is holding out of stun) 7 out of 15 stages have water; 4 out of 15 stages are neutral: 2 out of 15 stages start with a roof- 2 out of 15 stages have recurring stairs. If someone counters out of stun - you have options to take advantage. You're attaching a player problem to a systematic problem. A player can just learn & respond accordingly with the correct counter given the options the opponent has in DoA4
Not commenting on this nonsense.

DoA5 advocates safer hits on block - THIS is rewarding players for practically mashing - This is basically saying that you like to press buttons to win
LOL no... By mashing you will inevitably be using unsafe or predictable moves. That deserves to be punished. What does not deserve to be punished is your follow-up after breaking through the opponent's defenses.

if the game gave you a button - 'press this to deal half-health' you would press it. If the game gave you a button 'press this to get out of a combo' you would press it. Guess what - Doa6 has all those things now.
And that's EXACTLY what DOA4 gives the player at ALL times except in the air. And to get a respectable launch in the air you have to deepen the stun a gazillion times.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
You cannot debate - everything you say is completely opinionated & quite frankly all your conclusions inevitably end in "I don't like DoA4" - The fact you have no valid response to my concept on fair use of stages is proof you have ran out of opinions.





That's you attacking me right there. I haven't even used derogatory terms or explicit language toward anyone.

I said the idea was dumb. I didn't attack or insult you as an individual like you have multiple times now.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Me:
First you have to tell me how the DOA5 stages themselves are more random than the DOA4 ones. I'll be waiting.

You:
Everything is safer on block-what do you mean unsafe moves? What's next? Give every character faster moves so they can mash faster. There's guard breaks that are unsafe in 5 too - Eliot suffered with it for a long time - Rachel suffers with it too.
A guard-break isn't necessary because you have environmental factors that help open the opponent up in DoA4 - Guard break or slip-stun take your pick. The fluid force-tech game also allows you to stay at the advantage or at least remain neutral
Nothing of relevance.

Can't discuss with someone that circle-jerks and beats around the bush.

I'm out.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
The arrow actually points up to my replies; not down - child - you misread my response because your brain is incompetent
Or maybe it's because everyone on the internet puts the quoted text above and the reply below. Only you have to use this illogical way of replying to people. Even then, it's a simple mistake on my part. Does not make me 'child' nor does it warrant calling me one. The fact that you have to resort to name-calling says enough... Pot kettle.

And to reply to your actual response regarding the stages..;

I outlined near the beginning that environmental hazards are only accessible with a PB in DoA5 - which usually the faster character can take advantage of. DoA4 environmental hazards are accessible at all times to both players without requiring a special mechanic to do so.
So somehow having to work more to be able to get additional environmental damage makes it more random than being able to get them instantly? Yeah no... Completely illogical... Not to mention this is a complete lie. Wall damage, being thrown down to a lower tier, the rocket and tank in Hot Zone, falling objects, those are all triggered in DOA5 without having to use a power blow.

I'm still out, after this post.

lol you don't even you know about stance-specfic movement within your own game that you play. In a mock debate you already would have lost because you have no rebuttal
LMAO of course I knew about it, considering Kokoro was my main in DOA4. It was never that relevant honestly, because majority of things don't depend on stance, there were (and still are) no half circular moves, and the overpowered hold system came way more into play than stance ever could. It's more a gimmick more than anything, unlike in VF5.
 
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