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Tiers vs Favorites (Fighting)

J.D.E.

J.D.E.

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I think tiers just tell where a character ranks as far as strength & tools go & it could play a factor depending on how well they're used, but I DON'T think that it tells or determine how good the fighting gamer is. I don't like the fact that people label you a "scrub" just because you believe in using your favorite character to beat people.

If you're labeling people a scrub because they don't believe in the tier factor, then that makes you a tier whore, & that's my personal definition of a scrub. I personally have a lot more respect for people who use their actual character to win than the ones who drop their characters because of where they're placed on a tier list to win. Don't get me wrong. Tiers will always be a factor in fighting games, but I think labeling somebody because of what game logic they use is wrong.

What is your opininon about tiers over your character?
 
Nightpup

Nightpup

Well-Known Member
Always use your favorite character for everything, obviously. The only time it's really OK to use top tier characters is if you're going to a tournament that's offering a cash prize or something for first place. At least, that's my opinion on the matter.

Then again, this is coming from someone who almost always uses low tier characters on purpose :V
 
Matt Ponton

Matt Ponton

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Staff member
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There's no 'personal' definition of a scrub.

A scrub is...

David Sirlin said:
Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.
Click to expand...

As for the tiers. The tiers list out which characters have more options or better options than other characters. No more or less.
 
Forlorn Penguin

Forlorn Penguin

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Premium Donor
I usually play the characters I like, but sometimes I don't. However, if they are just so bad that it's almost impossible to win with them, I might drop them.

I completely support tier lists though, and I'm looking forward to seeing the development in DOA5's tier list. Most of the characters I've ever taken a liking to in fighting games have actually been low tier, and usually get cut from sequels. Guess what's happening again this time?
:tengu:
 
d3v

d3v

Well-Known Member
Back in the day, tiers were actually backed up by something called a match up chart. We rated a characters chances of winning against another character in hypothetical set of 10 matches and arranged tiers by how many wins a character had against the entire cast.At the end of the day, it was the match ups that were more important. Why, because back in the day, it was accepted that the game began at the character select screen. Picking the right character could spell the difference between life and death. This was especially true in Super Turbo (SSF2T), players often had multiple characters - for example Daigo would run Ryu, O.Sagat or Boxer (Balrog); John Choi had Ryu, Ken and O.Sagat;JWonggg ran O.Ken and Vega. Character choice was simply a strategic decision you made at the start of the match.

To this day, you'll still see players who understand this and make appropriate selections. FChamp runs 2 different teams in UMvC3 and will switch when he deems it necessary. Bala rotates between 7 different characters in KoFXIII. Infiltration runs Akuma and Gouken and supposedly has a ton of other "pocket" characters he can pull out if necessary.

EDIT: Jay Snyder (Viscant) won MvC3 at EVO2011 by counterpicking the whole tournament. Coming into EVO, he knew that most every top player would be running a Wolverine team, so he built his team specifically to counter that.
 
Prince Adon

Prince Adon

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Premium Donor
I don't go by tier. I just use whoever I like. I usually like trying out and knowing all characters to an extent anyways. Besides, I don't think anyone should take the term "scrub" serious. Saying the word is funny enough to me.
 
d3v

d3v

Well-Known Member
Return of the Shadow said:
I don't go by tier. I just use whoever I like. I usually like trying out and knowing all characters to an extent anyways. Besides, I don't think anyone should take the term "scrub" serious. Saying the word is funny enough to me.
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The term scrub is serious business.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...ub-to-water-but-you-cant-make-em-think.91150/
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.ph...iss-some-preliminary-remarks-on-balance.1811/
 
d3v

d3v

Well-Known Member
Return of the Shadow said:
That made me lawl. There is a reason I never used my account on that site.
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LOL all you want, but realize that Dom 101 was written by non other than Seth Killian. The stuff written there has been the biggest influence to how fighting games are played at a competitive level.

There's a reason there's so much written about the "scrub mentality." Because being a scrub prevents you from winning. Being a scrub means hiding behind an arbitrary set of rules of "honor" and "fair play." What's fair is what the game's rules, i.e. the code allows you to do. Competitive fighting games are all about pushing what the engine allows It's about creating situations that give you the best chances of winning and, to get back on topic, if that means playing the meta game at the select screen, then so be it.

EDIT:
This mentality of constantly pushing the game and developing tech also means that tier lists can and will keep changing. How a tier list looks during the first month may not be how it looks like years down the line. For example, early MvC2's top tier was Doom, Blackheart, Spiral, Iceman, Cable. People thought the game revolved around zoning and space control. However, that was before people discovered the stuff that Sentinel, Magneto and Storm could do. Same thing with 3rd Strike. The US scene actually rejected the game at first since they thought that it was massively unbalanced. That was before the Japanese opened the game up and discovered stuff like Urien's unblockables and Makotos SA2 on touch kill shenanigans (which actually moved her from low tier, to top 4).
 
Awesmic

Awesmic

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Standard Donor
So in reality, I'm a scrub without even realize it myself because I'm dedicated to using a character I like to overcome any matchup.

Why am I playing DOA, much less fighting games? This is discouraging to read.
 
d3v

d3v

Well-Known Member
Awesmic said:
So in reality, I'm a scrub without even realize it myself because I'm dedicated to using a character I like to overcome any matchup.

Why am I playing DOA, much less fighting games? This is discouraging to read.
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You're only a scrub if you blame your losses on "cheapness." That's why even most bad match ups in any decent fighting game only go as low as 2:8. There's still a chance to win.
 
J.D.E.

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Mr. Wah said:
There's no 'personal' definition of a scrub.

A scrub is...



As for the tiers. The tiers list out which characters have more options or better options than other characters. No more or less.
Click to expand...
I know I get that. I'm just tired of people calling me that. I'm scrub why? Because I use my character before I use a top tier character? Of the roster I pretty much use all characters. People always hate their opponent for whatever reason, but this is just silly. That's why I said what I said. Just an example
 
Tones

Tones

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
The hell is with the second paragraph.

Understanding the game and how good of a player you aren't the same.
 
Prince Adon

Prince Adon

Best in the World!!!
Premium Donor
d3v said:
LOL all you want, but realize that Dom 101 was written by non other than Seth Killian. The stuff written there has been the biggest influence to how fighting games are played at a competitive level.

There's a reason there's so much written about the "scrub mentality." Because being a scrub prevents you from winning. Being a scrub means hiding behind an arbitrary set of rules of "honor" and "fair play." What's fair is what the game's rules, i.e. the code allows you to do. Competitive fighting games are all about pushing what the engine allows It's about creating situations that give you the best chances of winning and, to get back on topic, if that means playing the meta game at the select screen, then so be it.

EDIT:
This mentality of constantly pushing the game and developing tech also means that tier lists can and will keep changing. How a tier list looks during the first month may not be how it looks like years down the line. For example, early MvC2's top tier was Doom, Blackheart, Spiral, Iceman, Cable. People thought the game revolved around zoning and space control. However, that was before people discovered the stuff that Sentinel, Magneto and Storm could do. Same thing with 3rd Strike. The US scene actually rejected the game at first since they thought that it was massively unbalanced. That was before the Japanese opened the game up and discovered stuff like Urien's unblockables and Makotos SA2 on touch kill shenanigans (which actually moved her from low tier, to top 4).
Click to expand...

I will continue to laugh. First TLC makes a song out of it which was already laughable and then you people try to use it for a gaming term and expect people to take it seriously? Really? As if gamers need to make themselves look more stupid than they already do. This type of crap is the reason I will not take these community serious again. People take it too serious and make people forget what it means to be a gamer. And I don't care who writes what. Is that supposed to mean something to me? Point is the word is stupid like the word "noob" and I think anyone who takes it serious deserves to be laughed at.
 
d3v

d3v

Well-Known Member
Return of the Shadow said:
I will continue to laugh. First TLC makes a song out of it which was already laughable and then you people try to use it for a gaming term and expect people to take it seriously? Really? As if gamers need to make themselves look more stupid than they already do. This type of crap is the reason I will not take these community serious again. People take it too serious and make people forget what it means to be a gamer. And I don't care who writes what. Is that supposed to mean something to me? Point is the word is stupid like the word "noob" and I think anyone who takes it serious deserves to be laughed at.
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Missing the point.

It's all about the mentality behind the label. Unless off course, you think it's absolutely fine to play for "honor" and use "house rules" in a competitive setting. Especially not when money is on the line.

And as for fun, you forget that for us competitive folk, winning is fun. To quote from Sirlin.
David Sirlin said:
Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.
Click to expand...

If you can't understand the competitive side of things, then why the fuck are you on a site dedicated to playing one game competitively?
 
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