DOA5LR Tom Lee discusses Raidou, Honoka, and the Casual audience

In a recent article on Dead or Alive 5 Last Round by Siliconera, Tom Lee is interviewed and discusses some of the reasoning for Raidou's return and Honoka's selection. Be sure to read the whole article for full details, but here are some notable quotes by the Creative Director of Team NINJA:

I asked Lee why Team Ninja brought Raidou back. "Raidou was brought back because he is a fan favorite. Team Ninja definitely wants to see more villains in the line up. I personally love seeing more characters like this it brings balance to the cutesy girls [in Dead or Alive]," Lee replied.

Lee explained Team Ninja looks at stats and player feedback when creating new Dead or Alive fighters. Team Ninja’s data says in the Western market people have been playing wrestler type characters like Rig while in Japan they favor the female characters. "There are many guys on our team. I would like to see more characters like Raidou, for instance. But at the end of the day I think the numbers support the Honoka type of character," Lee said when talking about creating Honoka. "Maybe its a cultural difference, but sometimes in the East it’s dictated by aesthetics first and then the story is developed through character design. Rather than saying, the sister of so-and-so just got messed up by him, so let’s create a revenge story. Lots of times we review character designs and she seems like a 15 year old school girl, she’s coming home from school, let’s create a story about that."

"Interactive touch points have been switched up and added. Hot Zones have changed for some stages. There may be an addition to existing hot spots and it won’t be in all of the stages. Without telling you exactly where they are, we want fans who have been with us for the last two years to enjoy finding new things," Lee said.

Tom Lee also discussed the casual audience, sometimes eerily seeming like a direct response from Tomonobu Itagaki's recent comments towards the fifth entry of the series.

While it might feel broken for competitive players, one of the reasons why Danger Zone, a stage from the original Dead or Alive with explosive traps, was added was to appeal to casual players. "I think we learned is one of the things we wanted to do better is we’ve focused on giving competitive players. Making sure it’s balanced not just for players in the East, but players in the West. That was one of our biggest focuses in the last couple of years," Lee answered when I asked how Dead or Alive 5 evolved from from 2012 to now. "With Last Round, one of the things we wanted to do is not lose focus of our casual audience as well. When it comes to game balance and even the presentation of the stages we wanted to reel back and make the experience enjoyable for casual fans."

"We want to maintain that DOA has an easy point of entry for beginners. We want it to be an intuitive sort of experience instead of learning the move list for 30 different characters or whatnot. They can come in the beginning and button mash their way through, not only having success but looking good while you’re doing it. We want people to have a great time whether they understand a character or not. In mastering it, they will learn in trial and error," Lee elaborated.

Be sure to read the full article from Siliconera for further details.

 

Team Ninja has stated before that bikinis, fetishy costumes, and characters like Marie Rose and Honoka are what makes them the most money. The fact of the matter is, game design is a business and when the numbers don't lie, it's easy to see why we get the content we get. You may not like it, but the money that's generated from people buying said content is how Team Ninja is able to further develop DOA5 and even provide pot bonuses to tournaments. Also, anyone with common sense would realize that the current gen versions of DOA5LR would be the main focus. Team Ninja figured that it's best to at least get the balance changes out to those who cannot (or don't want to) make the jump to current gen right now. They haven't completely left last gen users in the dust, but they certainly want to support current gen in the long run.

 

They won't stop supporting males regardless how much more popular the female cast is. There is still an audience for male character fans so it shouldn't be completely ignored. Instead they would *cough* already do the minimum quota necessary to throw a bone to the males every once in awhile. That way they are allowed to say "What? We just gave the males like 1-2 more costumes and we even threw in a cyborg Raidou as icing!".

 

In Last Round, they made sure everyone gained a new costume and even brought back a fan favorite boss, and made him look even more bad ass (minus the no hair). Team Ninja has realized that there is an audience for male characters, which is why I say that in future DLC packs, don't be surprised to see the males being included again (even if it's just 1 or 2 of them).

 

*sees thread*
....

 

Elaborating then since I thought that was pretty self-explanatory enough if one was fairly observant enough to common trends. I don't want to write a novel on this so gonna keep this relatively short and condensed as possible.

Japan/East = One of the leading characters with fan art since her late inclusion, ranked 2nd in a recent official poll behind Kasumi, picked often in casual play usually followed by 'kawai~' and other positive terms in multiple different videos/streams I watched of Japan play, being pimped out in merchandising, common DoA choice cosplay, etc.

MR belongs in a common culture archetype that is popular [gothic loli pettanko] hence why she herself is being accepted quite easily regardless if she was labelled 12 or 1012 years old. The age is usually an afterthought for anime/video game characters anyway.

US/West = Not as accepting compared to East/Japan about what appears to be an underage girl being introduced because of different embedded social values. Western anime/manga crowd [fair assumption a good amount of them are into ecchi/harem/etc genre would play this game with what this game offers] that are loli/flat chest fans dig her just like there are Western fans that like 'cute young' characters Rachel in BB, May in GG, etc. Has generated positive reception in anime/manga affiliated sites such as CR, MAL, etc. One of the top DoA characters you could find art for if you dare venture DA, Tumblr, etc.

She isn't as widely despised as one would initially think just because she goes against the Western accepted standards of age consent. If there was a Western only poll would be willing to bet money she would still somehow retain top 10.

Note the common term that was missing for both region descriptions.
Competitive. No secret that those of us that play the game as a hobby for competition are the minority demographic so this is from the perspective from the majority demographic that would buy this game that is marketed as a 'sexy and action' 3D fighter. They want 'sexy and action' and different perspectives have different definitions for 'sexy' as we all learned once all kinds of different fetishes emerged.

Note that this is a broad generalization. I'm perfectly aware that there is the possibility and liklihood that someone in Japan would not like MR and such, but I am fairly certain there is enough of a general consensus established from various sources that MR 'as is' regardless of any lingering age controversies still ended up being a well accepted character.

TLDR: MR still has popularity regardless of age controversy because one can argue that is part of the appeal.

I know she still has popularity, but if their wasn't a controversy there wouldn't have been a movement against her either. I still beleive they could have made her look even a little older and she still would keep the same fans. I understand the concept of loli's in anime I main Rachel in BB, but the fact of the mater is the anime style is inhuman and I beleive that mostly why lolis are tolerated even by the people who don't like them. take that away ans all a "Loli" looks like in more realistic styles is a a little girl. They no longer lose that inhuman buffer now they look like kids and kids being in a DOA just isnt right.

 

Team Ninja has stated before that bikinis, fetishy costumes, and characters like Marie Rose and Honoka are what makes them the most money. The fact of the matter is, game design is a business and when the numbers don't lie, it's easy to see why we get the content we get. You may not like it, but the money that's generated from people buying said content is how Team Ninja is able to further develop DOA5 and even provide pot bonuses to tournaments. Also, anyone with common sense would realize that the current gen versions of DOA5LR would be the main focus. Team Ninja figured that it's best to at least get the balance changes out to those who cannot (or don't want to) make the jump to current gen right now. They haven't completely left last gen users in the dust, but they certainly want to support current gen in the long run.

They won't stop supporting males regardless how much more popular the female cast is. There is still an audience for male character fans so it shouldn't be completely ignored. Instead they would *cough* already do the minimum quota necessary to throw a bone to the males every once in awhile. That way they are allowed to say "What? We just gave the males like 1-2 more costumes and we even threw in a cyborg Raidou as icing!".

+1 on both.

Though I wish people would be more grateful of what the current dev team has done for the series, It's far better now than back from the doa4/doax2 days. Also the competitive scene has never been this big(and the support from TN for it) for doa.

And btw @Argentus, Itagaki is the reason why doa has the reputation that it has among gamers.
There's no way around it lol, he's also the man who made doa popular and saved Tecmo from bankrupt.

But saying that he isn't responsible for the certain reputation doa has, is just plain silly.

"But he made doax separately out of the normal doa's"
...
That hardly makes a diffirence, now does it.


The current dev team certainly isn't moving away from this reputation, but Koei Tecmo is company that needs to make money from their game they sell and if this means we get more support via dlc, whether it be characters, stages, etc.

It's pretty simple, if you dont like it.

Dont buy it/use it.

 

Brotip:

If you don't like the direction that DOA is heading, there are plenty of other fighting games out there. Vote with your dollars.

Like it or not, people like Marie Rose and Honoka. No one is pointing a gun to your heads and forcing you to play them. This bickering is far from constructive. Quit'cher bitchin,' folks. You ought to realize that you are a very loud and very obnoxious minority and - in the end of the day - what matters is where the money is coming from.

 

If I'm Tom Lee, I'm face palming at this entire thread & how it even started.

 

Yeah I remember the days when if people didn't like a character then they just didn't focus on them and moved to characters they did like. Nowadays if you don't like a new character, people have to bash that character and make it seem as if their very existence is a burden to their lives. This is not just a problem with DOA but with fighting games in general (Tekken is the biggest example with how they bitched about Lucky Chloe.)

DOA has 2 main aspects to the series, one of them is appealing female characters. Marie Rose and Honoka are popular and are one of the reasons the series is gaining more interest. Characters like them sell well and have a fanbase. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you have to bitch about it constantly. Not everything is made for everybody, so it is unnecessary to act so entitled.

Also the competitive/tournament scene is getting bigger then ever before and is going uphill, so we need to see the positive instead of being so negative towards the series.

 

....Okay. I'm bored, we can do this.

Then we can tango then.

1) Mila was the first realistically designed girl, which was new, first hispanic girl (even if it doesn't show), first MMA fighter, and suited the "Gritty' aesthetic they were trying for with vanilla 5. Later characters slowly stopped bringing things to the table, until we get Honoka who literally has NOTHING new about her. She is redundant in every sense.

And Juri is every single bad girl stereotyped wrapped in a generic tribute to a Jojo character and Rufus is a completely obese guy with a quick moveset rarely seen in other fighters, guess which one is more liked and more wanted for MvC3 and most definitely SF5?

2) I don't know what the hell you are getting at with the street fighter or blazblue characters, I don't see how that relates to what I was saying.

Didn't see I brought them about since it's most of those characters(Ingrid and Celica especially) are mainly whined at for being "everything is wrong with" crap too. You think their communities cares enough about them to whine about it?

3) Except Bass, Kasumi, Ein, Ryu weren't covering roles already filled by existing characters. They all covered new ground, with the sole argument of Bass being wrestler, which Tina was also.

The point...just missed it by a freaking country mile.

I was stating how outlandish your point was on Honoka by basically imposing what other people thought of the characters above and how they can still fit easily identifiable stereotypes through simple quirks or how they act.

4) When I say "its not a matter of personal preference", I'm not saying I speak for if everyone will or wont like Honoka. I'm saying that whether people do or don't like her is irrelevant to the point. As in, the POINT is not a matter of personal preference.

Which is still an opinion which is what personal preference is! You are making declarations, statements, facts, that is why I keep telling you what you are saying is personal preference because that's what it is.

5) The man who decided to make two volleyball games, didn't add the creepy voyeur beachside camera mode to DOA proper. Itagaki isn't the man who literally flooded the market with fetish dlc.

Oh right, you honestly believe the junk Itagaki stated. I'll let you in on something:
My brother Anthony Toraile Henderson Jr. plays DOA plenty. Hell, he liked DOA3 and Christie to the point where I had to play him on 4 to really beat him...and he wouldn't allow me to play DOAX2 and the 2! times I bought it, he turned them both back in...

What does that tell you when even a casual gamer like my brother who otherwise have no issues with me playing DOA, not even teases, wouldn't let me have DOAX2?
Why won't I, to this day, ever say anything to my friends about the volleyball games? Please tell me why everyone here sees them as a mark of shame? Hell, go mention it at GAMEFAQs, you will get a DELUGE of answers on the obvious:

DOAXtreme killed the series' reputation to the point people still BELIEVE the VOLLEYBALL GAMES came before DOA. Adding in pointless Gravure scenes no one will really buy, camera options people barely use and fetish DLC making them money aside, you have NOTHING here.

6) Except no. Again, whether you like her or I don't is irrelevant. Which is exactly what I said.

Except it does thank you very much, that is obvious from your intent.

7) I never said something couldn't be generic and bring something to the table. Hell, thats exactly what Marie Rose is. A generic design, but a unique fighting style. I'm pointing out how the dlc characters have slowly whittled down any originality, to the point we are left with Honoka, who has none whatsoever. As for the future, I'm basing this on the DLC trends so far.

And everyone is generic, hell, everything is generic. By your own very definition, everything is, so why the hell should that suddenly matter? Hell again, Mila is as generic as they come so please tell me how is being generic a bad thing? And unique fighting style? Whatever you say...

If you want to try to talk high and mighty, at least pay attention to what you are quoting, and understand what you are responding to. Just screaming at me because I like Mila and not Honoka is not only missing the entire subject of conversation, but just making you look ignorant.

look at who is talking...

I'm using the two as objective examples of how they started with a new character, and how they've wound up with a "new" character. Whether I like or dislike them is irrelevant.

And again, it does, I keep saying it does because it does. It's obvious just like with Werewolf, you are blinded by your own hatred to see the obvious bias you have. You are doing the exact same shit I've seen others whine about with Lucky Chloe and I'll be damned if I have to read about that shit here.

I sat through that shit with the XIII trilogy, no fucking more. I'm not gonna see someone basically make an ass out of themselves all in the sake of believing they know what's best.

 

Oh don't mind Jyakotu, he has his way of contradicting things. It's already been proven on numerous occasions. You should of seen him with the male characters being ugly and demand the models to be improved to cater for "his" needs. Whenever I see a big post by Jyakotu, I just skim through it and go right to the next post.

Like come on? Rig ugly? not gay but Rig looks alright man.

You've a point. Rig can't be ugly if Jann Lee likes him...

 

 

...

This is exactly why I avoid direct discussions about stuff like this, seriously, what the heck happened here?

@Argentus And no, Itagaki turning DOA into a game solely about ogling the girls and secret pole dancing scenes in jewel bikinis that float around all over the internet to this day damaged DOA more than DOA5's DLC and direction change ever could.

If anything DOA5, despite shifting gears, actually tangibly supports the competitive and serious side of the game in addition to appealing to their casual market, as opposed to DOA being purely T&A, which is the position everyone outside of it's minor community had on the series up until DOA5.

 

What happened to this thread? You cared enough to respond to @Argentus.

You don't have to be a contrarian every time you get the chance. Just saying...

 

Also back to the Itagaki interview situation, guys lets not act like Itagaki is some innocent guy who was the former dev of the game that had little to no sexuality and fanservice in the series. He not only had just as much of it in the older games as DOA5 does now, but he is the reason it was in DOA in the first place. All Hayashi and the others are doing is embracing it as well, and the way Itagaki complains about it honestly makes him just look like a jealous hater.

That's like if Ed Boon left NRS and stopped working on Mortal Kombat and if a new person in charge made Mortal Kombat just as deadly and gruesome and then later Boon complains about how it is ruining MK. Just makes you look like a hater.

If you agree with Itagaki's points then fine but don't defend him like he had nothing to do with how the fanservice of DOA happened.

 

What happened to this thread?

It became one massive Honoka-bashing fest, with Argentus and Xhominid taking center stage as the main characters of Moonlighting.

Ironically, this is why she's hot.

 

Another thread that was killed from what could have been a good discussion. Thanks a lot you guys!

 

Another thread that was killed from what could have been a good discussion. Thanks a lot you guys!

i had a great discussion dont know what you're talking about.

 

...

This is exactly why I avoid direct discussions about stuff like this, seriously, what the heck happened here?

@Argentus And no, Itagaki turning DOA into a game solely about ogling the girls and secret pole dancing scenes in jewel bikinis that float around all over the internet to this day damaged DOA more than DOA5's DLC and direction change ever could.

If anything DOA5, despite shifting gears, actually tangibly supports the competitive and serious side of the game in addition to appealing to their casual market, as opposed to DOA being purely T&A, which is the position everyone outside of it's minor community had on the series up until DOA5.

The thing is you can't do both. Supporting sex and pushing it front and center severely harms DOAs competitive scene and perception and deters people from playing it.

I can barely get a decent match in DoA5 online, but there's 4 options for breast jiggle? Every other fighting game has a consistently playable netcode with tons of match making options.

I've heard nothing in the way of netcode improvements, matching options, gameplay adjustments, etc... But I know everything there is to know about soft engine and so does everyone else.

Take one step forward and one step backward. Tell me how far you've gone.

 

I know she still has popularity, but if their wasn't a controversy there wouldn't have been a movement against her either. I still beleive they could have made her look even a little older and she still would keep the same fans. I understand the concept of loli's in anime I main Rachel in BB, but the fact of the mater is the anime style is inhuman and I beleive that mostly why lolis are tolerated even by the people who don't like them. take that away ans all a "Loli" looks like in more realistic styles is a a little girl. They no longer lose that inhuman buffer now they look like kids and kids being in a DOA just isnt right.

Just curious what would you consider 'looks old enough' from your perspective. Bigger breasts? Taller? More mature outfits? etc.