x Sypher x
Active Member
You raise a good point and I agree, although I never discredited those particular genres. That's not what I meant to say, but I apologize if I wasn't being clear.
Tomonobu Itagaki On Dead or Alive 5: “My Daughter Was Totally Ruined”
- Thread starter RoboJoe
- Start date
You raise a good point and I agree, although I never discredited those particular genres. That's not what I meant to say, but I apologize if I wasn't being clear.
Sounds to me like Itagaki has been reading FSD and other sites and wants to come in looking like a hero to sell his future games. Didn't we already get told that it's TK's fault not TN's, or does everyone have amnesia? Now, if Itagaki merely prints out and translates these forum posts about the console change BS, tells them that copy and paste DLC is meh, not great, and then tells them to fix the shortcomings (tutorial and combo training really need some work), then, by all means, let him do it. If he wants to walk in, put his name on it, dumb the game down, then walk out, i don't want him anywhere near it.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
^ That last bit interests me - especially the dumbing down part. I say this because some here put the previous entries on a pedestal. I've only played two games out of five game, so I can't say much; however, we began to fold our arms during the move from 4 to 5. Two updates later 5, is still on the same level as previous entries.
How would he dumb it down more than it already is? Hell, I can see his "statements" as you pointed out, but most here would say: "It's not his anymore! He shouldn't have a say!" To me, that is not fair because he didn't think this kind of stuff would happen.
5 is part of a series, not some standalone, reboot, new title entry to start a series: Tomb Raider (reboot) Destiny (one game now, three more coming). Being the first entry, they have room to make mistakes: Multiplayer, lack of content/story. These things can be and hopefully will be fixed. (And the DLC shit, don't get me started, but that is beside the point)
The more things change, right? Sadly, it's clear that this isn't the case; yet, the statement I didn't finish, evokes disappointment. However, it's clear that DOA5 is not the same game. I can understand wanting to go in a new direction to avoid becoming stale, but the little things you nix:
Just a title screen? If not, a background of some kind, do like Western games and give us an AI showcase - you did this with the previous entries. Why not now? That should have been "Spectator Mode" right there!
Tutorial, Training and Combo Challenge - I don't see any use for these modes once you get past beginning. Why? Most of this you can figure out by YT/Forums/participating in real fights via human or AI) Shit, I wrote a sizeable list of combos/mixups for Alpha, but they came from playing Survival (people don't see how you can train in that mode).
Alpha, I can see where Itagaki's poor choice of words don't help him, but you can't blame him for being "disappointed," - like how we get disappointed and express our grievances and how we're told to stfu because we feel entitled! I think alot of people forget that the folks that make our games are fans like us, too. If we can say, Koei messed up with DOA5, he can, too! We can leave DOA just like he did complaining about why we left - what they did or didn't do to make us leave. He can, too! Btw, how often do we complain about the malpractices of one companies then leave to only witness the same malpractices of another (Ahem *DLC*)?
IMO, I don't think Itagaki can dumb down DOA anymore than it has been. If he does that, I can't help, but congratulate him! Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if he did it out of spite since many here claim, he is being spiteful!
How would he dumb it down more than it already is? Hell, I can see his "statements" as you pointed out, but most here would say: "It's not his anymore! He shouldn't have a say!" To me, that is not fair because he didn't think this kind of stuff would happen.
5 is part of a series, not some standalone, reboot, new title entry to start a series: Tomb Raider (reboot) Destiny (one game now, three more coming). Being the first entry, they have room to make mistakes: Multiplayer, lack of content/story. These things can be and hopefully will be fixed. (And the DLC shit, don't get me started, but that is beside the point)
The more things change, right? Sadly, it's clear that this isn't the case; yet, the statement I didn't finish, evokes disappointment. However, it's clear that DOA5 is not the same game. I can understand wanting to go in a new direction to avoid becoming stale, but the little things you nix:
Just a title screen? If not, a background of some kind, do like Western games and give us an AI showcase - you did this with the previous entries. Why not now? That should have been "Spectator Mode" right there!
Tutorial, Training and Combo Challenge - I don't see any use for these modes once you get past beginning. Why? Most of this you can figure out by YT/Forums/participating in real fights via human or AI) Shit, I wrote a sizeable list of combos/mixups for Alpha, but they came from playing Survival (people don't see how you can train in that mode).
Alpha, I can see where Itagaki's poor choice of words don't help him, but you can't blame him for being "disappointed," - like how we get disappointed and express our grievances and how we're told to stfu because we feel entitled! I think alot of people forget that the folks that make our games are fans like us, too. If we can say, Koei messed up with DOA5, he can, too! We can leave DOA just like he did complaining about why we left - what they did or didn't do to make us leave. He can, too! Btw, how often do we complain about the malpractices of one companies then leave to only witness the same malpractices of another (Ahem *DLC*)?
IMO, I don't think Itagaki can dumb down DOA anymore than it has been. If he does that, I can't help, but congratulate him! Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if he did it out of spite since many here claim, he is being spiteful!
This comes from the fact that that is where everyone learned. I would say that 5 is more complicated than previous entries, however. A few feature differences totally changed everything. Take a look at street fighter II vs street fighter IV. Characters' ranges were shortened with alot of moves, and you have these super and ultra moves that are totally game changing. I've only played dimensions and 5U, but i can tell you that those are two totally different beasts. In dimensions, it was nothing for me to get the coveted stun for which i could play around with. Now, i'm still trying to figure out how i'm even going to get a stun, as so many moves now don't stun unless it's a counter-hit. And i say to myself, "cool, i have a simple juggle memorized, but how the hell do i use it?" Not to say that stun needs to be easier (i would like to say that on a totally different topic, but that's not the point i'm trying to make here).
It feels more to me like he's trying to throw weight around simply because he sees the opportunity to me. It'd be nice if he wasn't, but his statements about DoA as of late feel like he's just blowing hot air. Remember how he hates fighters to begin with? Does he even have a clue as to what he's doing? It's almost as if DoA was dumb luck. I don't know the guy, i haven't been around long enough to remember, but i just feel like the guy got lucky with DoA.
I do agree there. Some of the improvements were really good (CB, true sidestep, etc), but then you have power launchers, power combos, and the god-forsaken DLC.
I really wish i could talk to someone with TK or TN about the tutorial mode. You can tell that the stuff was written with the mind of people who are already playing the game and can't remember what it's like to be a noob. The tutorial mode can't even get you started.
I'm thinking he's not going to take the bad features away, but merely add a new feature to "balance it." I'm afraid that before too long, we'll be staring at the hay days of DoA being as realistic as Gran Turismo, then wondering how it ended up like Mario Kart (and then turn around and complain that the casuals ruined it).
Ghosty-J
Well-Known Member
YES, THANK YOU!!! I'm honestly surprised to hear that coming from Itagaki, but he said what I've been thinking for a long time about DoA5. The way they sexualize females in this game is getting freaking ridiculous. Which is one of the reasons I'm glad they stopped releasing DLC. As for mechanics though, it's still the best in the series for hardcore and casual fans alike as far as I can tell.
To be fair, he says that now that it's the new hotness to do and he isn't part of the team or business decisions. However, when he was leading the helm he was all "What? You don't want to play as/see sexy beautiful women?" "DOA is like a sushi bar with go go lights and girls on roller skates." and "I only made DOAX because people were asking me to put in a volleyball mini-game like Tekken did. If I'm going to spend time making a whole separate mini-game, I'm just going to make it its own standalone game." Itagaki acting like he didn't want the girls in skimpy outfits is hypocritical. With the exception of the Towel DLC, all of the sexy costumes were in previous iterations of the game in some form (Mostly the first Dead or Alive and DOAX/2).
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Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
YES, THANK YOU!!! I'm honestly surprised to hear that coming from Itagaki, but he said what I've been thinking for a long time about DoA5. The way they sexualize females in this game is getting freaking ridiculous. Which is one of the reasons I'm glad they stopped releasing DLC. As for mechanics though, it's still the best in the series for hardcore and casual fans alike as far as I can tell.
You do realize that Itagaki is also a huge part of that problem and not TN right? The fact he even CHOSE to make a Volleyball dedicated to fanservice mostly only really showed off that it was the tipping point and alot of peoples' perception of DOA to this day.
Hell, even the DLC isn't even that much of a problem since most games' usually get bitched out for focusing on costumes these days(Street Fighter is now getting it) so yeah no, Itagaki is just pushing the right buttons to seem right.
That's what makes this whole thing ridiculous. Itagaki made sex appeal the whole appeal for DOA. Sure, many of us stayed for the fighting system, but a lot of people got into the game because of the cool, sexy females on the cover and their bouncing breasts during fights. How can you complain about DOA5 mixing in too much sex appeal when sexy outfits where in earlier iterations and the fact that you made a whole separate series for people who liked DOA just for the women and bouncing breasts? Ha! It's so silly for people to bitch about swimsuits, bikinis, and sexy outfits when all of these things have been in DOA from the start. People will always talk shit, but the fact remains that DOA is getting attention as a competitive fighting game more and more.
That's exactly what i feel from this guy. Then he's going to waltz on in to someone's office, shoot off his mouth, and make some really damaging changes for DoA6, then hype it up as vastly improved so the FGC gets a little ray of hope, only to have their worst fears proven true to the point that we end up mocking ourselves as much as the rest already mock us.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
Everyone here know DOA is rooted in sexiness! This is not the problem! But to Demon's post bringing up XBV:
Didn't Itagaki say that series was meant to be a joke? The ladies and gentlemen (hopefully in X3) are just having down time! Having fun! Who wants to fights in tourneys 24/7? But what has happened is DOA and DOAX have been blurred, but it's not because we're erroneously doing so.
Think back to Vanilla - the stuff it didn't have vs. the things the portables did. Thus, Ultimate! You could very well say that the DOA5P (Portable audience) just cared about the extra content viewing it separate from the main game. (Pretty much what DLC is anyway. We all know what the obvious problem is with most companies in that regard)
This is what XBV was/is because some as you said, didn't care about the fighting or some wanted/need to take a break from it! Not a damn thing wrong with it!
Here's where it went to shit:
The costumes becoming more "OMG!" when this isn't XBV. IOW, XBV is permeating into the main game! How often do you see other franchises main games become dictated by their side companions? This is why they are side games! The fighting has taken a backseat to the costumes! That's the issue!
I know sex sells, but too much of a good thing, too? Am I right? That's sad, that we had characters who folks said, "Meh..." too, but when we started seeing the XBV versions (Ahem, Mila). Shit, I'm shocked I don't or any guy gets remarks for using Alpha since she is "nude" or now has the option to still be played while "nude!" Even moreso, that takes a backseat to "how cheap/OP/spammy she is!" An excuse to have a nude Kasumi, but people flipped their shit when this actually occurred. What's more bothersome? Reality or implication/perception of such?
Those Ryona vids on YT and the present picture flooding on FB in DOA related groups! Again, DOA being about sexiness isn't the issue! It's "pretending" you're not or trying to run from it - realizing you can't. Only to bring it back, but bury what was a good thing because you don't wanna risk giving up your identity!
How will be ever be possible since DOA is and will be famous and imfamous for it's sex appeal? Akin to how MK was/is famous/infamous for it's blood/violence! The day Ed Boon says: "We are no longer about the blood and gore, but rainbows and skittles!" and he might since he is notorious for trolling, but I doubt it!
He's trying different stuff: Injustice, but has he said it was this, when it proved to be that, instead? No! I bet if he did the R&S approach with MK or Injustice it'll be like he said. He'll probably have to go back to the B&G. I also believe that if he were to make side games (I'm sure he has), I also doubt they will dictate whatever else is does main series wise!
I think what Itagaki is saying is that KT/TN or whomever is doing this, is taking it too far! The risque costumes, the OP DLC! I don't understand! The fans that bitch about what devs do over here and we've had people walk out/get fired because they didn't like what was going on. Can/Should you blame them? I don't think so. They may be blowing hot air lke most are claiming Itagaki is, but they must some validity to their statements!
I watched a YT video comparison of Activision titles: COD: AW and Destiny. If I'm allowed to post the link here, so I won't have to explain here. However, to summarize: he said - that while they are similar in that they're FPSs, they are very different from person to person for different reasons. Hence, why CoD:AW gets so much love, but Destiny gets so much hate (valid reasons, but not valid enough to warrant hate/ridicule).
Warning: It has it's philosophical moments:
Now, if someone could come up with something like this for DOA and DOAX would be awesome!
Honestly, maybe DOA5 should have just been sexy from the get go. Team Ninja obviously tried to tone it down, but it didn't work because it alienated fans who liked DOA for the sexy and also the fighting. I'm guessing people just want TN to find a balance of both sexy and serious fighting game. But honestly, what constitutes as a "serious" fighting game anyway?
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
I'm going to counter this whole statement in a single sentence:
The overall issue is NOT DOAXBV slipping into DOA, it's the fact DOA has slipped into even HAVING something like XBV to begin with.
No matter how much gore Mortal Kombat has jumped itself into, they didn't create a game specifically just to kill things and that's it(and I don't mean that as in play an adventure AND you kill things, I mean just have a single enemy and just brutally maim him). You don't see Tekken simply making a game all about it's character customization feature or you simply practicing so you can play the series, same with Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, etc.
NONE OF THESE GAMES MADE A SPINOFF SPECIFICALLY FOR IT'S HOOK LIKE DOA DID! And that's why DOA has been scarred ever since XBV and Xtreme 2. It wouldn't matter if these costumes was available in the base game, no one would have honestly cared, it's the fact that the game was made to specifically oogle at the ladies is what killed off it's reputation for many. And whose fault was that? Itagaki's. You honestly need to understand that it doesn't matter if you do things like make skimpy DLC or whatever, as long as it's not called to attention. Then you will suffer plenty of issues because of it.
Intelligent Alpha
Well-Known Member
He meant it as a damn joke, but he didn't think people would actually take it seriously! It's not his fault people did! Ed Boon: "Ya'll please know I'm making a joke game despite seeing folks get mutilated like you wouldn't believe!" Do you think Ed Boon is stupid enough to think people would believe him (although his trolling monkier probably would have a few that do)
Yet, folks want the main series of DOA to be taken seriously! If XBV hadn't been made, do you think they'd stop playing the "OMG!" card? I doubt it since you say it's been that way before XBV's first incarnation! I think you're using XBV as a scapegoat. That would be like me blaming Destiny's problem on AW or vice-versa, but do you know what the difference is:
It's One company with two games in two different universes vs. One companies with two games in the same universe! I could understand if you didn't shoot a damn thing in COD or Destiny as you have the option (moreso, Destiny than COD), but you can't exactly play Volleyball in the main series or fight in tournaments in the XBV series; however, both games can have women wearing next to nothing. Which game is it more suited for? Keep in mind, again, that, sex was DOA's calling card long before XBV; it just got more risque and "gratuitous" and the series went on. What MK did for/with blood/fatalities, DOA did with the costumes tryng to mask this with fight mechanics and such jargon! Yet, women can look sexy and kick ass, too! No wonder folks got sick of the "Girl Power!" shit over here! But that's another can of worms!
Gill Hustle
Well-Known Member
Hmm . . .Itagaki was right about keeping the games in separate.
I like NG/DOA connection but DOAX would be better suited in it's own game. Better yet, start calling the franchise Zack's Paradise Island or something.
I like NG/DOA connection but DOAX would be better suited in it's own game. Better yet, start calling the franchise Zack's Paradise Island or something.
You see, i always saw the "sexiness" as part of strategy. I've known people to pick a certain outfit and fighter because they knew it was going to slow down their competition (hitomi's maid outfit was popular for this reason). However, the real tipping point is when the outfits are so copy-paste that they don't even fill THIS role anymore.
Yeah, i really do want to know how they managed to say she's not nude to ESRB. I've always avoided her for these 2 reasons. Calling her "Jell-O Monster" has helped a bit.
You do realize that you show your "O-face" every time you sneeze, right? The Ryona thing was porbably unintentional in development until it happened.
If it's not sarcasm, it's going to show more silliness in fatalities such as gaygalities or something like that. That said, DoA's sex appeal gets people interested. It is a little excessive at times, though.
It's what we asked for. The sex appeal in DoA isn't the complaint, it's the fact that it's not even creative anymore. Honestly, i don't think i'm gonna slow anyone down with the christmas outfits. Sure, it was Christmas time, but we already had ugly christmas outfits, we didn't need new ones.
Don't be too idealistic...
I would agree it didn't help. To anyone who didn't get a hard-on in the first 5 minutes playing the game, you could just be oblivious to this fact. I remember going to gamestop and seeing DoAX, thinking it was this awesome fighting game that i kept hearing about. I picked up the box, and within 2 seconds i put it back down. I didn't buy dimensions until it was at the end of it's lifespan, but only because i read more reviews that it was actually a fighting game and one that you employ realisitc strategies to win. Been with it ever since, but that didn't stop me from looking at the game cases in horror wondering why it would even be in the game cases at walmart. I know i'm not normal, but i've had similar reactions from other people in my area. If you want to advertise your game, the perverts will notice that Tina has big tits when they see her doing her stage intro: that'll get the perverts buying the game, those 3 or 4 seconds. With the rest, show your gameplay, the humor of Marie and and nyotengu. Maybe then i could show the youtube advertisements to someone without them freaking out. The games aren't nearly as sexy as they're trying to advertise them to be.
Chapstick
Well-Known Member
Virtua Fighter has Dural and she's "naked." Been that way since VF1 and they never had to put a nudity warning IIRC. They don't have nipples or genitals and the effects they have show they're clearly not human. Hayate, Hayabusa, Momiji, Kasumi, and Phase 4 are all technically "naked" when they use certain attacks with the transparent bodies they leave behind.
I've always wondered why Alpha has hair though and if she did replicate Kasumi's keratin making that possible, why doesn't she have eyelashes? Does she have finger/toenails? I never really looked
I've always wondered why Alpha has hair though and if she did replicate Kasumi's keratin making that possible, why doesn't she have eyelashes? Does she have finger/toenails? I never really looked
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
Wait till DOA6...