Wake up kick thoughts/suggestions/etc...

[Raansu]

I suppose to help consolidate different features and feedback in the game we can use this thread to talk about wake up kicks and how they should be handled in the game.

Currently they are not as bad as they were in DoA4 where they were practically projectiles with ridiculous hit boxes and with DoA5 they are slightly easier to punish, especially low wake up kicks, but to me their are still some things I don't like about them, mostly how they stun on hit and that their are still 3 levels of the wake up kick. Regardless, as is DoA currently has a pretty lenient ground game and its fairly easy for the defender to recover from it.

Personally I feel the kicks should be brought back to only 2 hit levels, mid and low. But what is everyone's opinion on how they work on block/hit? Currently if blocked standing its -8 and low wake ups are -10 so I'd say they are unsafe enough on block but on hit they still do a fairly deep stun for a wake up option.

So how should it be handled on hit? Should it stun? If so, should it just be like a short stagger? I personally feel that they should not stun on hit. Maybe a slight push back on hit? I'm not sure, but as is I feel that they should not have such a deep stun on hit for a wake up kick.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I don't know how well this will go over but I had this thought in my head: What if it was only possible to do a wake up kick (low or mid) after teching first? It also seems to me that the wake up kicks still have too high a number of invincibility frames, though not as bad as in DOA4.

 

[virtuaPAI]

They should just remove the invincibility frames from it, or give characters moves that are anti wake up kick. So lets say Bass can Buffalo horn through all wake up kicks. This will force the the defensive player to mix it up and use a side roll to evade the buffalo horn. But if you know they are going to Roll, you can free step in the same direction. Kinda like the wall game tech in Doa3.1.

 

[WorldWithoutWords]

I agree that they shouldn't have a deep stun on wakeup, it should be light and easily slow escapeable. Also the hit boxes in DOA4 in general were absolutely horrible, it was the one of worst things about the game because it made spacing properly very difficult. Glad they fixed those majorly in DOA 5 (Hitomi's 3F+K is still retarded though). That being said my friend and I almost never get hit by wakeup kicks, they're so easy to get out of the way of and punish in DOA5, and with the removal of most OH's it's now pretty silly to get up with wakeup kicks at all because theres no fear of being OH'd if you get up guarding.

 

[Allan Paris]

The 3 hit levels are fine, they shouldn't cause a deep stun (as the guy above me mentioned), all of them should be unsafe if they are blocked, evey character should have at least 1 move that will beat out 1 of the hit levels.

 

[grap3fruitman]

They should just remove the invincibility frames from it

This is probably the best route to go about things.

 

[Raansu]

The 3 hit levels are fine, they shouldn't cause a deep stun (as the guy above me mentioned), all of them should be unsafe if they are blocked, evey character should have at least 1 move that will beat out 1 of the hit levels.

I really feel that the high kick is completely unnecessary. It really should only be 2 hit levels like the older DoA's.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I really feel that the high kick is completely unnecessary. It really should only be 2 hit levels like the older DoA's.

-If they make it so that they no longer have invincibility frames and react like regular attacks, 3 wake up kicks+ the deep stun would not be a problem. Like with my Buffalo horn example, players should fear being knocked to the ground, and need to have solid defense to get out of it. Also, TN need to make it so that the offensive player is guaranteed a free attack while the opponent is grounded. So say grapplers will get back their guaranteed ground throws. Catch throws should also beat wake up kicks as well...oh, they should give Tina a pick up too lol.

 

[DriftSlave]

-_-' remove the stun from the get up kicks, and nerf the frames of invulnerability so it isn't as bad as it was before.

I can deal with 3 hit levels but make the high clearly distinguishable from the mid kick, say...make one not a roundhouse

also can I vouch for some characters? give more or all characters at least 1 unique wake up option? end rant...

 

[Allan Paris]

I really feel that the high kick is completely unnecessary. It really should only be 2 hit levels like the older DoA's.

Adding the 3rd makes sense, you have characters that can beat out both the low and mid wake-up kick. The high wake-up kick gives the player on the defensive a slight chance of not getting completely rolled on. The high wake-up kick also puts up a defense against characters that have the ability to jump over you when you are downed.

Of course the properties need to be fixed on them as well as how they look when they are put on the screen.

 

[virtuaPAI]

also can I vouch for some characters? give more or all characters at least 1 unique wake up option? end rant...

-All the characters in 4 had a special 4th wake up option.

 

[Allan Paris]

-All the characters in 4 had a special 4th wake up option.

LOL, yeah they did, that's kinda lame. You seemed to remember that small detail about the game, lmao.

 

[virtuaPAI]

LOL, yeah they did, that's kinda lame. You seemed to remember that small detail about the game, lmao.

-Lol, I liked Tina's tackle. It made sure you knew wtf you was going to do and couldn't just run up on her. There were certain things in Doa4 that I did actually like...ex: sabakis, parry's follow ups that did more damage with better timing, Better SE, forced tech, ground bounce...thats pretty much it.

 

[DriftSlave]

oh damn i didn't know that...I thought only Ninja and Tina had special wake up options...oh and Lisa...

 

[Tenren]

They should just remove the invincibility frames from it, or give characters moves that are anti wake up kick. So lets say Bass can Buffalo horn through all wake up kicks. This will force the the defensive player to mix it up and use a side roll to evade the buffalo horn. But if you know they are going to Roll, you can free step in the same direction. Kinda like the wall game tech in Doa3.1.

i like the idea but not how bass can go threw them all. How about crushing them out. Keep the idea of removing invincibility but if they do a low an over head beats it. Mids can be crushed by special lows or highs (ie Ryus Bizen-Ichimonji or Hatyates-Tenbu starter) and Highs by low crushes. Keep in mind crush moves only. So not all lows,mids,high will work. The VF down punch would work for lows and some mids this way. DOA4 kinda has this idea but timing due to the invincibility makes it hard as shit.

 

[virtuaPAI]

i like the idea but not how bass can go threw them all. How about crushing them out. Keep the idea of removing invincibility but if they do a low an over head beats it. Mids can be crushed by special lows or highs (ie Ryus Bizen-Ichimonji or Hatyates-Tenbu starter) and Highs by low crushes. Keep in mind crush moves only. So not all lows,mids,high will work. The VF down punch would work for lows and some mids this way. DOA4 kinda has this idea but timing due to the invincibility makes it hard as shit.

-IMO only crushing specific wake up kicks is putting players in another unnecessary mixup. In Doa2/3 those characters who could just avoid the whole wake up had great ground games and placed a lot of pressure on the defensive player. Allowing all characters the ability to crush/avoid all wake up attacks forces a new ground game dynamic. The results do not have to be the same. Some characters can get a juggle, knockback, another knock down(reset/loop). The defensive strat cannot just be a rising kick out of jail card. The defense must consist of reading your opponent and getting out of further danger. From what I am getting out of the demo, a well timed roll places you out of danger and gives you frame advantage...often times back turned advantage. This is more than enough for a successful defense.

-Also, if Team Ninja Gave each character a more dynamic 4th wake up option, it can add another meta game to the ground system. Giving the characters more individuality and depth.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Adding the 3rd makes sense, you have characters that can beat out both the low and mid wake-up kick. The high wake-up kick gives the player on the defensive a slight chance of not getting completely rolled on. The high wake-up kick also puts up a defense against characters that have the ability to jump over you when you are downed.

Of course the properties need to be fixed on them as well as how they look when they are put on the screen.

And you can't just stand up guarding because... ?

 

[x Sypher x]

I think the wakeup kicks should not stun at all and should be brought down to the level of jabs on NH, in other words they should be like taking hits from jabs if that makes sense. The only time they should stun at all is if they beat out another attack, while in water, or if they catch the opponent while they are SSing or backdashing, if that were to happen at all. But the stun should be partial, not deep. And if a wakeup kick is blocked I think it should cause a slight pushback.

 

[Allan Paris]

And you can't just stand up guarding because... ?

Yes that is one of your options (the best IMO) but does not mean that should be your only 1. For me yeah, I'd just stand up guarding, I personally don't use wake-up kicks that much when playing against good players. But that's me, maybe you, Raansu, and probably several others, not eveyone will or would want to be forced into doing that. Now if wake-up kicks are fixed to how we want them to be fixed, players will be standing up guarding anyways. Well that applies to the ones that will get tired of their shit getting blown up for doing them.

To make it clear, I didn't answer that as if we didn't have wake-up kicks at all. Just that 3 wake-up kicks are fine and once they are fixed, they will not be as big as a nusance as they are now.

I also get why people would want them to go back to 2, someone getting knocked down should have little options available to them (plus more reasons I didn't mention). I honestly don't think TN will take it back to 2 (if they do I am with it), so the best we can do is to get them to fix them so they are not as effective as they are now.

 

[FM BigBoss]

I don't like the deep stun, but since the hit boxes on just about everything have been tightened, it's fairly easy in most situations (unless you're against the wall) to back dash away and punish without fear. Which basically renders the wake up kicks a poor choice in most situations anyway.

But it doesn't really make the wake up game that interesting if all that is happening is spacing and punishment.
I suppose at the very least it will be consistent, and that's something.