System What's the science behind beating wake up kicks?

[WAZAAAAA]

Can anyone accurately explain how do wake up kicks work in DOA5? They're weaker compared to previous DOA's.
I'm not referring to the act of simply dodging the attack by jumping it/spacing away/guarding and punishing accordingly. I'm talking about straight up "ignoring" it.
Some facts I have observed:
-WUKs have a certain amount of (mostly) invincibile frames (pretty obvious, but how many frames are invincible?)
-even when a WUK is in the middle of its active frames, it can get crushed with a well-timed strike, with no trade necessarily occuring!
-it seems like only specific strikes can "crush directly" a WUK
-when I try to crush a mid WUK using Hayabusa's 2P+K6P+K, the startup frames of the WUK on player 2 appear to actually CHANGE very often...

Is this a matter of strange hitbox collision? Some sort of hidden priority system? A "frame perfect mechanic"? I'm clueless, help.



EDIT: here's the answer
nice and simple explanation from the developers themselves through an old changelog. Basically they removed the invinciblity from the 1st WUK active frame so you can "trade-beat" them with higher damage.

DEAD OR ALIVE 5 : Ver.1.03 Update Detail

DEAD OR ALIVE 5 : パッチ Ver.1.03 アップデート内容

Revised hit detection for rising kicks. When rising kicks and strikes hit at the same time, rising kicks now lose to strikes if the strike causes higher damage.

起き上がりキックの当たり判定を見直し、ダメージがより大きな打撃と相打ちしたときに、起き上がりキックが負けるように変更。

TL;DR wake up kick active frames no longer invincible, so they can be beaten in trades like normal strikes if you outdamage them

 

[Lulu]

LoL..... all I know is i play the AI Zack and Leon can crush the living shit out of my Wake Kicks.
Zack doesn't even crush them.... some how his normal kick beats the crap out of my mid wake kick.

I honestly don't know how it works.

Have you tried experimenting with the move details ?

 

[WAZAAAAA]

I'm constantly experimenting with the move details and they're telling me two things
JACK & SHIT

 

[Lulu]

LoL..... they are comprehensive but not as detailed as KI's training Tools..... you could actually see the hitboxes in that game.

Uhm.... sorry I honestly can't think of anything. Normally I say that the AI is cheating but I have seen a player beat a wake up kick (by accident) so theres definitely something to work with there. Just keep knocking them down and trying to get it...... I know certain characters are better at it, the number one culprit would be Zack

 

[SoftCabbage]

Since AI can do ground attack 5x in a row right after they put you grounded, what is there to ask?

Akira and Lei Fang AI can hit air and damage me eventually. But when my Jacky and Christie kicks practically reach enemy's mouth when they're completely open for attack (like charging Power Blow, standing normal, etc), sometimes it feels like I hit a smoke.

Since we're talking about AI, when I play Rookie Survival in DOA5+, I can meet a 6-star class AI in the 4th, 6th, and 10th (or last stage of the survival) turn.

In this case, I'd stick to "strange hitbox" and "AI-first system" until further technical explanation.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Since AI can do ground attack 5x in a row right after they put you grounded, what is there to ask?

Are you talking about heavy (jumping on the opponent) or light (low punches / kicks) ground attacks here? You can actually avoid both of it by simply tech rolling.

On which character did this oocur?

 

[SoftCabbage]

Are you talking about heavy (jumping on the opponent) or light (low punches / kicks) ground attacks here? You can actually avoid both of it by simply tech rolling.

On which character did this oocur?

Light punch

Happens a lot usually from Kokoro, Honoka, Marie Rose, Mila, etc.

I know I can, but what I was saying is that, they immediately spam this after I get grounded which makes my button input invalid.

It's not always happen, but maybe in moderate amount of occurrence. Just imagine how annoying it is.

 

[Lulu]

LoL.... you can perform the Heavy Ground Attack long before enemies hit the ground..... and I believe this applies to the light Ground Attacks too, you can initiated it on a juggled opponent and depending on the height it will connect immediately when they hit the ground..... at that point its just a matter of Repeating it..... Rig seems to do this alot.

 

[Hazard]

It would be easier to calculate if it actually told you what frame an attack hits on/what frame an attack is interrupted on.

 

[Lulu]

You can never have too many Move Details.... the more the better.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

It would be easier to calculate if it actually told you what frame an attack hits on/what frame an attack is interrupted on.

Well it can still be checked with the current move details by analysing the game frame by frame, by either recording and playing back the video clip, or playing the game in slow motion with some speedhack

 

[Deth Cody]

iirc correctly if the attack is stronger than the wake up kick, it beats the wake up kick.
theorycrafting ways to beat wake up kick is kinda of a waste of time, its way easier to test.
just set the ai to low or mid kick on reaction then knock them down, and you have a repeatable wake up kick to practice on.

from what ive played with over the time of playing doa5, is that jann lees 9K and H+K, eins QCFK, and ayanes 9K, nyos 7KP beat wake up kicks either by jumping over them or crushing them or both.

 

[XZero264]

It's based on the wuk and incoming attack data.
If the wuk is active before the incoming attack the wuk will win. If the incoming strike is active too early (1 our 2 frames after the strike final active frames but before the wuk active frames) the wuk will win.

This is where it gets interesting (not at console atm so I might get numbers wrong). Assuming all wuks deal 20 damage (give or take 1 or 2 points because I'm not running through all characters to find out) all you have to do is make the active frames of a strike match the active frames of the wuk and the strike needs to deal 20 damage to trade or 21 points or more to win. Based on whether you win or not you will also either beat out or get beaten out as either a Counter hit or Hi Counter hit, I believe you will get Hi Counter if you match the first active frames of both strikes but the wuk only gets a HCH if the opponent was throwing.

So all it boils down to is:
Does your strike deal more than 20 damage and did you match the active frames?
I do believe the strike needs to be either mid or low as well because the wuk is considered to be in a crouching position.

You are going to see more strikes beating out wuks from Super Heavies and slower characters primarily because the SHs don't actually have many strikes that deal less than 20 points of damage and the slower characters have more access to stronger strikes than characters that are i10 high strike or faster without serious dedicating and risk coming from them.

 

[Lulu]

Check out the knock downs at 3.20.

Now I tried these just recently (5 minutes ago to be exact) and they still seem to work in Last Round.

So yeah.... Sarah's and are bending the rules.... the latter seems likely to trade with Mid wake up kicks alot.

The timing doesn't even feel that strict.... or maybe it was just a fluke.

 

[XZero264]

Her 6H+K is 25 damage on Counter, which is 125% of NH damage. So 25 damage at 80% = 20 so the attacks will trade and both players take 25 points and appropriate Counter Stun statuses.

As for the 3K it dealt 27 damage on Counter so that's 21.6 damage on NH (check NH damage, might be 22 in the in game data).

 

[Lulu]

Its also active for 3 Frames..... still don't you think its weird she can just kick him like that ?
Sarah is the last person I expected to be able to do it.

 

[XZero264]

She could hit on the first of the three, second, or third active frame and as long as it matches the active frames of the wakeup it will still trade (assuming we are talking about 3K).

Leon's 46P (Shoulder Tackle) has 5 active frames and deals 40 damage. If any of those 5 match with any wakeup kick active he will be dealing 50 damage as a Counter Hit with a chance at getting a Close Hit. All that has to happen is that the strikes need to be active at the same window before damage decides who wins.

One way to learn to be a little more effective with this is by using Power Blows. @Mr. Wah is particularly fond of that method.

 

[Lulu]

LoL.... damn.... that explain how Leon's AI keeps beating my wake up kicks.

And players have already begun to take advantage of this. .....sneaky.....

 

[XZero264]

Yeah, I forget which patch introduced it (I think Vanilla 1.03 or 1.05) but it was one hell of a way to make the game more competitive.

 

[Lulu]

Well I don't agree about it making it more competitive but it definitely did add an interesting new layer.