Why do you think Momiji is copy and paste?

deathofaninja

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I'm no doubt going to review the character, but already I've seen a small handful of people complain that Momiji is pretty much the same as her DOA5 counterpart. I disagree, but feel free to enlighten me.
 

KasumiLover

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I don't think Momiji is exactly copy and paste, but overall her style is virtually the same as 5LR, except this time since they removed Critical burst and overly long stuns, they made her even more safe than she was before and hardly any of her frames or advantages and frame disadvanatages changed, the only thing that changed is that it seems like you have to commit more when you go into her double jump stance since a few of her combos and set ups won't hit or combo if you don't fully finish it

Overall I think she's pretty much the same, but just alot more straightforward and easier, I don't see why players should complain that she's unchanged anyway since that's a good thing imo. She didn't really need to be changed much unlike characters like Phase and Helena who had a noticeable amount of changes
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
I do not share this opinion at all. She is REALLY different. Her moves look the same, but that's about it. The ones that say she's the same never really played her beyond casual gameplay.

She is LESS safe, not more safe. The best example is PPPP, her most basic string. That was -3. It is now -10. Huge difference. And that same P finisher is unsafe across the board for all the strings that have that same finisher.

A move that has completely changed is Forward H+K. It used to be -10 but is now +2 (I believe). Not that it's that useful considering the move used to stun and now is a knockdown and is an i26 frame move...

Damaging juggles are harder. It was so easy to do highly damaging juggles in DOA5LR with her. A basic juggle like 3P4P, 3P4PP now won't work because the first punch on the second part whiffs.

Her launchers are less good. In DOA5LR she was one of the characters that didn't need to play the stun game and could play stun-launch really well. Although that hasn't changed in DOA6, her launchers no longer launch equally high as in DOA5, which relates back to the point above of her juggles being less effective.

Her bound doesn't work on all weight classes with a basic launcher like most other characters. This is immediately a negative point for her, because it limits the basic option of doing extended juggles by doing a cancel break blow... It makes getting good damage in a lot harder than it was in DOA5LR.

So no. She's not the same, nor more straightforward, nor safer, nor easier.
 

KasumiLover

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I do not share this opinion at all. She is REALLY different. Her moves look the same, but that's about it. The ones that say she's the same never really played her beyond casual gameplay.

She is LESS safe, not more safe. The best example is PPPP, her most basic string. That was -3. It is now -10. Huge difference. And that same P finisher is unsafe across the board for all the strings that have that same finisher.

A move that has completely changed is Forward H+K. It used to be -10 but is now +2 (I believe). Not that it's that useful considering the move used to stun and now is a knockdown and is an i26 frame move...

Damaging juggles are harder. It was so easy to do highly damaging juggles in DOA5LR with her. A basic juggle like 3P4P, 3P4PP now won't work because the first punch on the second part whiffs.

Her launchers are less good. In DOA5LR she was one of the characters that didn't need to play the stun game and could play stun-launch really well. Although that hasn't changed in DOA6, her launchers no longer launch equally high as in DOA5, which relates back to the point above of her juggles being less effective.

Her bound doesn't work on all weight classes with a basic launcher like most other characters. This is immediately a negative point for her, because it limits the basic option of doing extended juggles by doing a cancel break blow... It makes getting good damage in a lot harder than it was in DOA5LR.

So no. She's not the same, nor more straightforward, nor safer, nor easier.
Excuse me? She is the same. She is more safe imo since she's gotten safe attacks to work with, they simply switched what was unsafe and what wasnt. PPPP and 3PP are gonna be unsafe since its a mid ender that knocks down, while they made 6H+K a defensive pressure attack that gives you advantage. It's 26i but it can still help against faster characters who tech up on the defensive, i don't really see why some people want it as a FSD stun that's unsafe when it's already a safe frame advantage on guard attack, the slow speed can easily be negated if you use it when your opponent is teching up before they can really react, plus it's a hard FT. And she has other safe attacks that logically should be safe, like 66P, 4PKK, 44K, 214P. 214P+K, KK, 8K, H+K at max range and PP6P and 6P+K, and even her double jump options.

Her bound doesn't work since she doesn't really need it, certain characters like Mai and Momiji have their bound attacks situated in ways where it's not conveniently easy to use unlike characters like Kasumi who's bounds are set up to be used almost virtually after almost all her combos since she needs it due to her damage, Kasumi would do pitiful damage if she couldn't bound KK7K and such. She can still get good BB cancel damage, but it's just more situational like she can simply just do 236P+KPP82T after a cancel(And iirc it hits the ceiling even) or if she's near a wall, just do 3P+K for close hit wall splat damage followed by her fatal rush SSSS. Her fatal rush imo makes up for her lessened launches, that's why even tho it's just four S inputs, it's combo hits exceed 4 hits so that way it can't be exploited like how Phase 4's and Helena's and Marie and a few other characters work.

And actually she is more straight forward since her combos are less complex than in LR, her juggles not being as good and certain juggles whiffing is because of the meta change that affects other characters as well too. I think you're looking too deep into the "negatives" and using that as a way to justify her being "harder" when she's really not. She's still 5LR Momiji, just with a few meta juggle changes to fit in DOA6 and attacks that were safe and unsafe before have been switched around.

Now if you were saying that Mai is less straight forward, not the same and not easier I would agree since Mai isn't, she's way unsafer, and less cheap than in LR where she could get away with alot. Momiji I don't see that, her combo juggles were just slightly toned down since juggles are different in DOA6 but that's happened to virtually everyone
 
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Dr PaC

Well-Known Member
Crazy that people complain about copy/paste movesets in DOA yet never hear that same story brought for Tekken, SF, or literally any other game that has been using the same strings and special moves for decades. All these games have the same character specific strings and/or special move, that's how you keep legacy characters familiar to the player, but DOA and all the rest of these games build on their movelist and add extensions or new normals. Long story short, Momiji is not the same as she was in DOA5LR. Saying she is means the player didn't know her moves all that well in the first place.
 

KasumiLover

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Crazy that people complain about copy/paste movesets in DOA yet never hear that same story brought for Tekken, SF, or literally any other game that has been using the same strings and special moves for decades. All these games have the same character specific strings and/or special move, that's how you keep legacy characters familiar to the player, but DOA and all the rest of these games build on their movelist and add extensions or new normals. Long story short, Momiji is not the same as she was in DOA5LR. Saying she is means the player didn't know her moves all that well in the first place.
But she is tho, not much has really changed about her besides move properties, slight launch changes,shortened stun and switching some moves to be safer and giving ones like 3PP and PPPP unsafer frames. I don't feel like she's much different because even her new moves weren't many besides the new combo throw and 4P enders and such. She's not copy paste but she hasn't changed much to really be seen as really revamped unlike characters like Phase 4 and Eliot with their added improvements
 

KasumiLover

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And then...

That's practically everything that can. What else is there to change, provided you keep the moves list similar?
Not really, you're saying that she's not striaghtforward, not easier, and etc. but how? She's basically how she is in LR, which isn't a bad thing! I'm saying that in a good way, I don't think they copypasted her into in 6 and I'm not the part of the people complaining that she's relatively the same as in 5LR, I'm actually happy that TN kept her as a simple to use character since in LR I wasn't able to learn her since her combos and such were somewhat more complex, but in 6 with how the stuns work and how launches are consistent and dont change height unless you use a FR or FSD her combos were more straightforward to learn.

If they wanted they could have easily gave her a somewhat major overhaul like Phase 4 but the thing is they didn't, Momiji has always been regarded as one of the characters in DOA5 who isn't hard to learn and is straightforward besides her not having much in terms of mix ups like a Helena or Kasumi has. In 6 it's obvious that they wanted to keep her simple and wanted to slightly buff her so they gave her a few new attacks, changes a few safety frames here and there and gave her the 6 juggle and meta treatment and stopped there, if they would have did much more else to her they would have to likely make her unsafer which thankfully they didn't, she's just as if not safer than LR, they just made PPPP and 3PP and such safer so you can't just mash it, she has PP6P and 6P+K if she wants a safe ender since that's a high elbow.

I'm not going back and forth and arguing but I'm just saying that she's not that different in 6, she can still be played like how she was in LR taking the shorter stun and launch and juggle changes into mind, but they had to cut corners to make it so she could be safer and such which is why her juggles seem overall worse(which I don't personally see, she already can do good damage and she has refloats and such which probably explains why her juggle potential seemed to take a hit damage and height wise). I don't see how she's not straightforward just because her PPPP and 3PP are unsafer either, that seems like something that could be brought up about Mai since her safety and such did take a hit in the transition from LR to 6 but she's a 9i striker so xD
 

candynarwhal

Active Member
I'm certainly no expert on character balancing or anything like that - but really, by virtue of DOA6 playing completely differently to DOA5, how can anyone say any character has been copied and pasted over? Even if they literally were, you wouldn't apply their skillset in a match the same way.

If we're talking cosmetics, that's another thing...
 

DestructionBomb

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Standard Donor
keep legacy characters familiar to the player

Well to be fair, Momiji is not a legacy character though. Not sure why this needs to be repeated lol.

As for Momiji, there has been differences in frame data change, but rather her aesthetic or general outlook as a character is extremely underwhelming. It's literally plain vanilla ice cream that simply looks cute for general eye candy. Some of the characters in DOA6 have a sort of copy and paste from other games, but they have been generally all-around alright with it. I mean, most fighting games do this so it's a no brainer, but usually they change up that ones that somewhat needs the change.

She's basically how she is in LR, which isn't a bad thing!

No, that's a bad thing (for Momiji that is). It is precisely why Momiji has been in constant debates with this. I remember someone asking "well how come people are ok with this character having exact moves to the previous games and not Momiji?"

It's because the character (visually) does not create this spark in the FGC to be a notable character for people to recognize. The character doesn't stick out compared to Hayabusa/Kasumi/Ayane. Same with 80% of the rest of the cast. I suppose she sticks out from a casual perspective, but there's a limit to that sort of thing.

My wish for Momiji is to be rescrapped and reworked entirely while keeping the same concept in mind (with how she is now) to where it's inspiring. I requested this character back in DOA5 vanilla but regret it with how she turned out that's shaped like a regular apple. A mistake on my end, but there is still hope (maybe in the next game if TN are going to use household guests again). I mean, look at Bayman and Leon. They changed them little by little so that they aren't too similar to stick out more. I also felt that they needed it, especially Leon since the fan base kept calling him a Bayman clone (to which he kinda was despite having his own identity).
 
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KasumiLover

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To be fair, Momiji is not a legacy character though. Not sure why this needs to be repeated lol.

As for Momiji, there has been differences in frame data change, but rather her aesthetic or general outlook as a character is extremely underwhelming. It's literally plain vanilla ice cream that simply looks cute for general eye candy. Some of the characters in DOA6 have a sort of copy and paste from other games, but they have been generally all-around alright.



No, that is a bad thing (for Momiji that is). It is precisely why Momiji has been in constant debates with this. I remember someone asking "well how come people are ok with this character having exact moves to the previous games and not Momiji?"

It's because the character (visually) does not create this spark in the FGC to be a notable character for people to recognize. The character doesn't stick out compared to Hayabusa/Kasumi/Ayane. Same with 80% of the rest of the cast. I suppose she sticks out from a casual perspective, but there's a limit to that sort of thing.

My wish for Momiji is to be rescrapped and reworked entirely while keeping the same concept in mind (how she is now) to where it's inspiring. I requested this character back in DOA5 vanilla but regret it with how she turned out that's shaped like a regular apple. A mistake on my end, but there is still hope (maybe in the next game if TN are going to use household guests again).
I don't think she will be tbh, people use Momiji besides her as a character because she's simple to pick up and learn, if she were reworked that would be learning the character over again when she's only really been in one game, and I don't think TN will overhaul and change something that doesn't really need to be changed since there's not much to change. I don't think even Rachel will be changed much but the people who like her will use her unless they don't like how she plays in 6
 

DestructionBomb

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Standard Donor
- Simple and easy pick up characters have been reworked in games before. How is Momiji any different to be excluded? when you are under Hayabusa's training I expected heavy epic shit, not plain ice cream lol.

- People usually relearn characters. It's incompetence or multitude of other reasons. There isn't much to relearn when the game format and approach is the same when it's usually the meta that gets changed (well....usually).

But alas, it is what it is. People actually thought I hate the character when it's more on the fence that I want this character to be similar to the rest of the notable cast members and having a movekit that stick out more (in all forms). Course, i'm sure I'll come across the simple "hey, that's just your opinion! Momiji looks great!" type posts, but if people enjoy the typical blind optimism then sure, it's what they like.
 
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KasumiLover

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- Simple and easy pick up characters have been reworked in games before. How is Momiji any different to be excluded? when you are under Hayabusa's training I expected heavy epic shit, not plain ice cream lol.

- People usually relearn characters. It's incompetence or multitude of other reasons. There isn't much to relearn when the game format and approach is the same when it's usually the meta that gets changed (well....usually).

But alas, it is what it is. People actually thought I hate the character when it's more on the fence that I want this character to be similar to the rest of the notable cast members and having a movekit that stick out more (in all forms). Course, i'm sure I'll come across the simple "hey, that's just your opinion! Momiji looks great!" type posts, but if people enjoy the typical blind optimism then sure, it's what they like.
Well DOA hasn't really reworked characters since DOA5, the only characters I can think of that have been reworked is maybe Phase with her new teleports and Helena with some of her inputs but I don't think they would rework Momiji since there's not much reason to rework her, I think they're content on keeping her simple to use. I can't say it's blind optimism on my part more or so than just being content with how she is now but I suppose i can see why people would want her to be more like how the other ninjas are in their movesets
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Not really, you're saying that she's not straightforward, not easier, and etc. but how?
I didn't say that. I said she's not as straightforward as DOA5. She was simpler in DOA5 than in DOA6. And she's not easier either...
Using the moves we already discussed... Let's put things in perspective.

PPPP is a brain dead move. Using PPPP in DOA5 has no real negative consequences, other than making it easier for the opponent to hold. If the opponent fails to hold, you're safe.
PPPP in DOA6 while still a brain dead move, has more negative consequences than in DOA5. The opponent can hold just like DOA5, but if they fail to hold, they still get a chance for a free i7 throw.
6H+K even though unsafe in DOA5 was still safe enough considering the pushback. So the change is not as drastic as for PPPP.

I'm not going back and forth and arguing but I'm just saying that she's not that different in 6, she can still be played like how she was in LR taking the shorter stun and launch and juggle changes into mind, but they had to cut corners to make it so she could be safer and such which is why her juggles seem overall worse(which I don't personally see, she already can do good damage and she has refloats and such which probably explains why her juggle potential seemed to take a hit damage and height wise).
And the main thing we haven't mentioned yet compared to DOA5 is... Critical Burst. That is gone now, and that means that her main tool is gone. She could get a Critical Burst faster than anyone else in DOA5. That is a HUGE advantage she had. The same string currently gives her only a knockdown. So the damage potential here was basically half health gone in DOA5 vs less than a quarter in DOA6. She has to work a lot harder for her damage now.

All that does not mean she is not straightforward to use at the basic level. She is the most simple Ninja out there, and arguably one of the easier characters to use. But that's it. To use, and nothing more. Her damage does not come easy, unlike DOA5. And that is what makes her harder to use compared to DOA5, because she actually has to fight for longer to win matches, and she has to work a lot more to get some decent damage in. She is not the hugely damaging stun launch character she used to be since now she has mediocre damage. She CAN do very great damage if the environment is used correctly though, as long as she can get a bound in.

And look at her Fatal Stun option. She has to be back turned to use her main one. She had a few BT options in DOA5 but weren't that important. This time, they are almost vital, which once again raises the risk she has to take, meaning, less simple than DOA5.
Long story short, the main mechanic (Critical Bursts) came easy to Momiji in DOA5, and the main mechanic in DOA6 (Fatal Stun) is hard to get off. I really don't get how people say that she's easier, especially considering that last point.

And yeah, I'm not interested in a back and forth either. I made my point. You're free to reply, most likely I won't reply again for now. Let the rest decide for themselves.
 

KasumiLover

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I didn't say that. I said she's not as straightforward as DOA5. She was simpler in DOA5 than in DOA6. And she's not easier either...
Using the moves we already discussed... Let's put things in perspective.

PPPP is a brain dead move. Using PPPP in DOA5 has no real negative consequences, other than making it easier for the opponent to hold. If the opponent fails to hold, you're safe.
PPPP in DOA6 while still a brain dead move, has more negative consequences than in DOA5. The opponent can hold just like DOA5, but if they fail to hold, they still get a chance for a free i7 throw.
6H+K even though unsafe in DOA5 was still safe enough considering the pushback. So the change is not as drastic as for PPPP.


And the main thing we haven't mentioned yet compared to DOA5 is... Critical Burst. That is gone now, and that means that her main tool is gone. She could get a Critical Burst faster than anyone else in DOA5. That is a HUGE advantage she had. The same string currently gives her only a knockdown. So the damage potential here was basically half health gone in DOA5 vs less than a quarter in DOA6. She has to work a lot harder for her damage now.

All that does not mean she is not straightforward to use at the basic level. She is the most simple Ninja out there, and arguably one of the easier characters to use. But that's it. To use, and nothing more. Her damage does not come easy, unlike DOA5. And that is what makes her harder to use compared to DOA5, because she actually has to fight for longer to win matches, and she has to work a lot more to get some decent damage in. She is not the hugely damaging stun launch character she used to be since now she has mediocre damage. She CAN do very great damage if the environment is used correctly though, as long as she can get a bound in.

And look at her Fatal Stun option. She has to be back turned to use her main one. She had a few BT options in DOA5 but weren't that important. This time, they are almost vital, which once again raises the risk she has to take, meaning, less simple than DOA5.
Long story short, the main mechanic (Critical Bursts) came easy to Momiji in DOA5, and the main mechanic in DOA6 (Fatal Stun) is hard to get off. I really don't get how people say that she's easier, especially considering that last point.

And yeah, I'm not interested in a back and forth either. I made my point. You're free to reply, most likely I won't reply again for now. Let the rest decide for themselves.
Her damage doesn't come easy since she's relatively predictable, and CB was her main tactic in DOA5 but even then she's pretty linear since alot of her strings have usually two options to guess from besides the throw attempt. And her BTed FR is the way it is since she already has a P+K that causes a must hold or fall situation, the BTed FSD isn't even really useful unless the opponent holds. And the damage can be said about most other characters tbh since there's no CB, it's straight get down stun into launches or throws

And yeah I don't agree with your point but if you feel your point was of enough tact to offer me, then I can respect it. Opinions aren't always right or the only way to think after all
 
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