FYI: Hold data looks like 0/17/13 right now. In the Alpha demo it was 0/18/17.
Why should DOA5 NOT have a 6-Point Hold system?
- Thread starter BlackOrochi
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RoboJoe
Well-Known Member
Where are getting this info from?
BlackOrochi
Member
Agreed.
Plus with 6-pts, we'd be more likely to see Holds popping up at more crucial and later moments in the match, once players will have a better read of one another. An assertion of dominance with a greater surprise effect.
I'm not too worried about how it may affect command inputs, but more about the learning curve for casuals and re-balancing damage and frame data since Holds will occur less often.
Has it been confirmed?...
I'm your source for that info and I'm 99% certain of its validity.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Would mister source happen to have the numbers on holds INSIDE of stun?
I would rather have the recovery back to what it was in the alpha demo. It felt perfectly right and alot less spammable.
why would they even change it ?
thats a big step backwards .. in fact I think it is the worst step backwards they can take...
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Surprised you actually said that.
Why are you surprised ?
None of us want DOA4 again .. and THAT is what made DOA4 shit more than anything ... low recovery to damn holds. it its like you can have holds on turbo without worries and you can just spam it to break out of stun. Complete bullshit.
In the Alpha demo, a wrong hold had a long enough recovery that the follow up actually linked if the opponent fucked up their hold it didn't reset the damn stun. It also gave reason to actually use slower moves to bait out a quick hold response. Longer recovery to holds also in a way gave a better punish-ability with throws. Shortening the recovery time completely abolishes this and turns things back to shit.
Screw burst, screw damage nerf, screw powerblows and sit down stun. THAT one fix was the best and biggest fix they did. Everything else was just icing on the cake so why take a step backwards?!
I don't want to abolish the guessing, but if the guessing is wrong you should be punished for it. Longer hold recovery was the best fix they did for that specific reason.
lets just hope this is only the case out of stun and not in stun as well ...
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Because in most cases, what you want is a direct contrast to what players like Rikuto and myself want. To see you with a similar train of thought is a surprise.
But if you add more things like CB and sit-down stuns, it doesn't matter what they do to counterholds. If I can CB on the third hit, with a sit-down stun on the second hit, a counterhold in stun could be 0/18/0 and it wouldn't matter.
Not true. It would matter heavily ...
If you have low recovery, what would prevent me form intentionally spamming the hold after i get hit just to reduce my stun state, NOT to counter you but in fact to get myself out of stun?! This completely abolishes the threat and throws your CB out the window. in fact, with a low recovery you might even be able to do one hold to take you out of stun, then you get a longer acting "NORMAL out of stun" hold, with longer active frames even, to screw whatever follow up you may want to do. That screams DOA4 more than all the shit that anyone has argued about before.
Sitdowns, CB .....and all this stuff helps...only slightly, but nothing has a bigger impact as a longer recovery hold IN and OUT of stun.
Like I said before, I am all for the guessing. I don't want to eliminate it completely like you guys and that's the main point where we differ ... but this fucks up the punishment of a WRONG guess. and kinda screws heavily with the offensive options that we got now.
Think of this ... if you stun, then the opponent holds immediately recovering out of stun before the active frame of your sit down stun comes out ... we're back to the same fuck up. this situation is complete shit.
Heres another dumb thing to think about ... lets say a stun puts you at -40... and you hold instantly ... you're now at -30 ... fuck that shit. Hold should be a defensive tool to punish the reckless offensive opponent, not your get out of jail free card for every damn situation like in DOA4.
In the alpha demo, the long recovey of the hold made it so that the hold recovery became an extension of the stun-state not a free ticket out of it ! This also allowed the linking of moves that would not normally link together and created a whole new strategy in that sense. Without a decent recovery to holds, you can kiss all that goodbye ... enjoy DOA4.25
They need to bring back the recovery of the alpha demo or else everything they did so far is practicly worthless.
Shinigamimatt
Active Member
Actually, that's a good point. I take back what I said. But I still think that would make some moves a little safer. At least against scrubs.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
But once again, this is the frame data for the holds outside of stun so its irrelevant. What we need is the data for the holds inside of stun.
agreed.
I'm just worried that if it is anything like the alpha demo then it turns into a ratio thing ... like:
0/17/13 might turn into ... 0/10/20 in stun... still too short ...
this is my worry ..
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I can agree with that. But almost all CBs and sit-down stuns execute in 20 frames or less. As long as the counter + recovery is more than that, then it doesn't matter to me if they reduce the total stun time or not. I just need enough time to land my sit-down or CB.
I maybe over worrying here. But, I really felt comfortable with the hold properties of the alpha demo as an attacker and really saw it as the core of all fixes afterwards.
Shinbori and Co. know what they're doing, at least I hope they do. And I hope they don't pull off a last minute Itagaki on us out of nowhere.
I really hope they reconsider... or at least reach a middle ground... or something...
Shinbori and Co. know what they're doing, at least I hope they do. And I hope they don't pull off a last minute Itagaki on us out of nowhere.
I really hope they reconsider... or at least reach a middle ground... or something...
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
At neutral, I would agree. In stun, there was no difference to me.
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