Your General Complaints about DoA and Other Fighting Games?

[DestructionBomb]

FYI, Dbomb DOES know the game really well.

He just prefers to be an ass, rather than actually explain things. Hence this little runaround. Sometimes he'll be genuinely helpful, but the attitude coming up instead is pretty standard fare. (I realized I actually have him blocked on PSN, which I only do when people spam hatemail. Unblocked for now because I don't remember what he said.) He also has a hard time looking at things from other perspectives. But he knows the technical side pretty damn well. It's trying to get a straight answer out of him that's the hard part lol.

We have never played before and I have never sent you a message. I'm far too forgiving to send hatemail, there is no purpose in doing so. No need for that when I receive them. Unless you actually navigated, searched for my name and then blocked me. It's good that you unblocked me if you did, I may actually send you a message with a picture of a teddy bear stacked with dynamites for our long lasting friendship towards you, along with the amount of time lapsed from our post of connectivity within FSD forums. A token of appreciation.

Plus I am only an ass when people put themselves in that situation for me to be that douche. It is difficult to be perfectly sane when the whole forum lights up like fireworks with the nice little colors that says "Help me, I am crazy in this forum but I won't tell people that."

 

[Argentus]

You have to realize that changing a single character changes the way an entire team plays in MvC2. Magneto in particular gains new options and resets when he's paired with Psylocke, and the team is considered a harder rushdown team than MSS. Meanwhile taking Magneto out of the original MSS team and replacing him with Cyclops and moving him to the end (aka Justin Wong's team) creates a more zoning, runaway oriented team.


Even Street Fighter has changed and/or made its inputs easier as time has progressed. The only reason IV kept some of those stupid inputs (e.g. 12369, or the "tiger knee" input) was because of nostalgia and not wanting to stray to far from II (which is funny because some of the system decisions, such as invunerable backdashes defeated this purpose). 3rd Strike had way easier execution outside of the truly high level stuff and SFV also seems to be following on the same mold with no more 360s and charge supers (just like 3S) while making everyone hit like a truck with short combos.

But assists are what make the game unique and give teams unique synergy.

3D models also make it easier to develop and tweak moves and animations since you don't need to redraw individual frames. And the 2D sprite movement is there by choice, since the players prefer it (it keeps the fast, 2D frame data).

oh I know the reasoning behind it all.

On the MvC2, it was more that I was tired of facing the same CHARACTERS all the time, so he decided to challenge me to prove me wrong (?!) by...picking the characters I said I was tired of always facing.

On SF, I know it's all just due to player nostalgia. Overhauling commands would be too drastic a change for the player base.

On assists...I can't say "unique" due to strategies being funneled down to specific teams (hence me bitching about always facing Magneto and Sentinel, etc). I do understand synergy. In MvC3 one of my favorite tricks was a pincer with Dormammu and Taskmaster. Could OHKO by launching will calling Dormammu in so enemy was hit from Dormammus hellfire from above while hit from Taskmasters arrows from below. Did SO MUCH goddamn damage lol. OHKO an entire team once that way.

on 3d models doing sprite movements, I know, but it just looks awkward. not aesthetically pleasing, if you will.

But back on the TvC, how do you think the playerbase would react if SF adopted the streamlined "less buttons" TvC approach, rather than the classic six buttons? Hypothetically, of course, not saying I actually want them to do that.

Oh also, another thing on topic. SF really needs to stop trying to pretend its innovative lol. Like IV having "Focus attacks" and trying to act like its some game changing, innovative mechanic. It's just a charged/delayed attack, which had been around forever, SF was just late to the party due to not having had a game in a decade. Then in SFV I remember it happening again with them announcing some "innovative" new mechanic that turned out to just be something all other fighters have had since forever again (forget what it specifically was, though).

We have never played before and I have never sent you a message. I'm far too forgiving to send hatemail, there is no purpose in doing so. No need for that when I receive them. Unless you actually navigated, searched for my name and then blocked me. It's good that you unblocked me if you did, I may actually send you a message with a picture of a teddy bear stacked with dynamites for our long lasting friendship towards you, along with the amount of time lapsed from our post of connectivity within FSD forums. A token of appreciation.

Plus I am only an ass when people put themselves in that situation for me to be that douche. It is difficult to be perfectly sane when the whole forum lights up like fireworks with the nice little colors that says "Help me, I am crazy in this forum but I won't tell people that."

All I know is I came across a "DestructionBomb" on PSN at some point (likely ranked), and I had that PSN ID blocked for some reason I don't remember. Avatar was Shuma Gorath from MVC3. I know I only blocked the people who spammed hatemail.

Going by logical progression. Assumed it was you. Probably from before I was a regular here, and didn't know you from here.

Also apologies for snapping and cussing during the last post. been babysitting EXTREMELY bratty kids today.

 

[d3v]

But back on the TvC, how do you think the playerbase would react if SF adopted the streamlined "less buttons" TvC approach, rather than the classic six buttons? Hypothetically, of course, not saying I actually want them to do that.

You lose on alot of the richness of Street Fighter's mid-range footsie game. A good portion of this is about knowing which specific normal attack to use for a specific circumstance. Alot of players would react quite negatively to it (just like how players reacted negatively to CvS1 having only 4 attack buttons).

TvC didn't really need this since the footsies in that game were more about big screen filling attacks, as per the versus series. At the same time, being a more pixie, rush down oriented game, you're focusing less on individual normals and more in getting in with a mixup and chaining lights into your combo.

Aside from Street Fighter IV (which, due to a combination of low pushback on lights as well as plinking, used them alot), Street Fighter has traditionally not focused much on extended combos from lights, but rather on poke and hit confirms from long range pokes.

Oh also, another thing on topic. SF really needs to stop trying to pretend its innovative lol. Like IV having "Focus attacks" and trying to act like its some game changing, innovative mechanic. It's just a charged/delayed attack, which had been around forever, SF was just late to the party due to not having had a game in a decade. Then in SFV I remember it happening again with them announcing some "innovative" new mechanic that turned out to just be something all other fighters have had since forever again (forget what it specifically was, though).

But focus was a game changing mechanic. While it's not the only culprit, the fact that it was a universal answer to strong pokes is part of what lessened the emphasis on footsies in SFIV. On paper, it doesn't look like much, but in practice, it was one of the things that made SFIV play like it was not Street Fighter.

As for Street Fighter V however, it's hard to say because it's mechanic isn't one single mechanic at all. Rather, every character's V-Skill is actually a mechanic that's unique to them. However, it's how its tied to one single V-meter that's interesting and unique. While we've seen fighters with characters that have had unique sub-meters before, I don't believe we've had one where we see disparate mechanics, all tied to universal meter. Even the V-Triggers are unique. Some are flat out installs, some are more in line with KI's Instinct mode, while there's at least one that isn't either of these at all.

 

[Argentus]

You lose on alot of the richness of Street Fighter's mid-range footsie game. A good portion of this is about knowing which specific normal attack to use for a specific circumstance. Alot of players would react quite negatively to it (just like how players reacted negatively to CvS1 having only 4 attack buttons).

TvC didn't really need this since the footsies in that game were more about big screen filling attacks, as per the versus series. At the same time, being a more pixie, rush down oriented game, you're focusing less on individual normals and more in getting in with a mixup and chaining lights into your combo.

Aside from Street Fighter IV (which, due to a combination of low pushback on lights as well as plinking, used them alot), Street Fighter has traditionally not focused much on extended combos from lights, but rather on poke and hit confirms from long range pokes.

But focus was a game changing mechanic. While it's not the only culprit, the fact that it was a universal answer to strong pokes is part of what lessened the emphasis on footsies in SFIV. On paper, it doesn't look like much, but in practice, it was one of the things that made SFIV play like it was not Street Fighter.

As for Street Fighter V however, it's hard to say because it's mechanic isn't one single mechanic at all. Rather, every character's V-Skill is actually a mechanic that's unique to them. However, it's how its tied to one single V-meter that's interesting and unique. While we've seen fighters with characters that have had unique sub-meters before, I don't believe we've had one where we see disparate mechanics, all tied to universal meter. Even the V-Triggers are unique. Some are flat out installs, some are more in line with KI's Instinct mode, while there's at least one that isn't either of these at all.

on Focus Attacks, I know it was game changing FOR STREET FIGHTER, but it just irritated me that the SF playerbase tried to tout it as something amazing to the FGC as a whole, when the reality is that SF was just catching up to the rest.

VSkill? That's what it was? Seems more like a unique character action like BLazblue or Raging Blast had, at least on paper.

 

[d3v]

on Focus Attacks, I know it was game changing FOR STREET FIGHTER, but it just irritated me that the SF playerbase tried to tout it as something amazing to the FGC as a whole, when the reality is that SF was just catching up to the rest.

VSkill? That's what it was? Seems more like a unique character action like BLazblue or Raging Blast had, at least on paper.

Never heard of anyone proclaiming that focus was something amazing, at least not among the communities I go around.

As for V-Skill, it's really hard to peg it as something similar to BB's Drive due to how varied they are. Not even all are attacks. To closest we have to a Drive is possibly Cammy's Spin Knuckle (formerly a special attack) or Bison's reflector. Stuff like Ryu's parry or Chun's short hop don't really fall into the same category mechanically. The only thing that ties them together is that they all power up the V-Gauge.

 

[d3v]

For more on execution, here's an interesting article by James Chen.
http://shoryuken.com/2012/07/16/lost-strategy-series-the-role-of-execution-by-james-chen/

 

[Argentus]

Never heard of anyone proclaiming that focus was something amazing, at least not among the communities I go around.

As for V-Skill, it's really hard to peg it as something similar to BB's Drive due to how varied they are. Not even all are attacks. To closest we have to a Drive is possibly Cammy's Spin Knuckle (formerly a special attack) or Bison's reflector. Stuff like Ryu's parry or Chun's short hop don't really fall into the same category mechanically. The only thing that ties them together is that they all power up the V-Gauge.

sounds more like the Raging Blast where its just a character specific "action". Like Brolys would be a dashing grab, Bojacks is momentary invulnerability, other peopls is a small melee combo, others its a counter, others its a time stop, etc, etc.

cool to differentiate people more like that, though.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

d3v they wont click on links here you go

The Role of Execution by James Chen
Original published March 11, 2010 by James Chen (@jchensor)

When you look at top players like Daigo and Choi, it can seem like execution is no longer a concern for them. As a result, some people feel that the execution barrier is simply an unnecessary hurdle to trip up beginners and intermediate players. Believe me, that’s absolutely not true at all.

Execution is ALWAYS a factor at high levels of play. You’re just not looking at it from the proper view.
Expert players know what codes are harder to do and what takes longer to react and things of that nature. For example, if you see Fei Long running at you, you know you’re way better off at poking at him than if Ken was running at you. Why? Because when walking forward, Fei Long is at a total disadvantage. He can’t Rekka NOR Flame Kick from that position well, so you are aware of when he opens himself up. With Ken, he can easily Jab DP you hoping to score a lucky hit. So you’re more likely to try and fake out a Ken than a Fei Long.

That’s a simple example, but it’s only the tip of the iceberg. For instance, if Zangief’s SPD was an Uppercut motion, you would see WAY more walk-up SPDs. A lot of experts know they can play Zangief a certain way because walk-up SPDs aren’t a foregone conclusion, so they can afford to let their guard down from the front against a grounded Gief player because they know if they let Gief jump in, they are more screwed. It’s SUPER easy to get an SPD off of a Jump-in compared to walk-up, because SPD from the air is easier to perform.

If Gief could walk up and SPD via a DP motion, you would have to play the match entirely differently, even at the highest levels where execution starts to become less of a factor. With Guile, I’d rather NOT throw a Sonic Boom at Zangief if he gets too close because I know I can keep him out on reaction easier from the front than if he manages to Jump at me over my Sonic Boom. In other words, I’m preserving my anti-air options because they are more important than anti-ground options BECAUSE I know the SPD is tougher to do from the ground.

It’s like watching those Kung Fu movies where two people are fighting with swords and they get kicked all the time, but no one ever lands a sword strike. Why is that? Because if you get hit with the sword, you die. But a kick lets you live, so you’ll be more willing to pay attention to the sword rather than the foot. When you’re playing against a Gief, you KNOW the SPD takes a while to perform, so you are willing to be more lenient against the footsie game with Gief and be more ready to stop his Jump.

Here’s another perfect example. Let’s look at Anti-Air Custom Combos in CvS2 and Alpha 3. Basically, when playing Alpha 3, you HAVE to pick V-Ism Gief against V-Sakura because you can’t win unless you do. She can anti-air CC you to death so easily that you HAVE to base your whole game on that idea. So you have to pick V-Gief because he’s the only vesion that can stop that tactic by anti CC’ing her back.

But now let’s try something. Let’s make CC Activation QCF x2 + Fierce. Now what happens? I can TOTALLY play A-Gief against a V-Sak. It’s a WORLD of difference because of the change in execution of the move. So if Sakura had to do that code for her CC anti-air, I would jump at her WAY more often because there is a VERY good chance she’s not ready to get her free anti-air on me. I jump KNOWING that the code is hard to do. But that’s fantasy… In reality, because it’s just hitting two buttons and it’s so easy to do, I know I CANNOT Jump at her ever and so the only way I can win is if I have a counter to that one specific anti-air.

Execution isn’t just about performing your combos. It’s also largely about knowing what your opponent CAN perform in given time frames. That ADDS to the mind games and the gameplay, not detracting from it.

Stop thinking of execution as some kind of curse that affects only you and start thinking of it as a legitimate consideration when measuring up your opponent’s options. Sometimes making it physically difficult for an opponent to execute a counter is just as good as baiting one.

 

[Lulu]

Where is that facepalm picture, except the facepalm should go through the face because that post by Lulu above me was ridiculous.

On second thought! I take it back! make all the inputs easy . Raidou is going to bump a tier for converting the catch grab on hitting buttons with a easy input as 236T! This is also a good chance to actually make Shimbori's theory on why Akira is top tier come true. Just imagine a shoulder with just a simple input dealing 90+ because the opponent decided to smack a string providing all that juicy disadvantage on themselves and then in between... boom! all that damage!

Oh man! Yup...make it all easy.

Execution is not one of the Criterias Tier list are affected by....
The Power of Akira's Shoulder has got not nothing to do with its inputs... fast and strong as it maybe.... it doesn't bypass the game's rules. Plain and Simple.

 

[Goarmagon]

Let me say this..every time they try to make execution easier in fighting games the execution becomes more convoluted. Go and play SF2 and work your way up to Marvel 3 and you will know exactly what I am talking about. SF2 was strict but fair execution wise but when they start putting all that sneaky shit in to make it easier it didnt really harder or easier, it just becomes a chore.

 

[Lulu]

Or they can use one of the many ways to get in and actually win the match, considering that Ryu is mid tier and the top tier characters in the game such as Yun are all rushdown characters who rely on getting in and doing big damage. Even Evil Ryu who is top tier doesn't rely much on zoning.

Ryu's fireball trap hasn't been that strong for decades now. Players have discovered and developed many ways to get in over the years.

All this does is just highlight the meta-game of Street Fighter, where players will develop something "low risk high reward", only for other players to come up with a counter to them. This is how all fighting games, whether 2D or 3D, develop.

In any case, the original argument wasn't just about fireballs, but about multiple versions of specials. Take for example attacks that count as reversals, doesn't have to be Shoryuken's. For the most part, each variation, depending on the strength of the button pressed, gives different properties, whether it's height, invul, damage, recovery, etc. For example, for Ryu's Shoryu->FADC-<Ultra 1 to work, he needs to use the light punch version. However, the lower height means that for certain situations, he has to anti air with the heavy punch version.

Then there are moves like Decapre's stinger, which depending on the button pressed, have different invulnerabilities - one version is strike invul, another is throw invul and the third is only invulnerable against fireballs. This means that she can't just YOLO reversal out of knockdown because she has to respect whatever meaty attack her opponent is doing. At the same time, this encourages the attacker to risk a meaty attack on wakeup, since it means that Decapre can't just mash a reversal out every time (but has to think about which version she needs to use).

Again..... did not factor execution into the equation..... its easy to just say "counter with this or that".... but you need to understand that some people are physically incapable of using a technique they know would have been a good counter in a particular scenario. And actually the argument was originally about the six button layout..... not about Multiple versions of the Specials.... other Developers seemedcto have found a way around this problem.... like Christie's Charge Multi hitting Strikes in DoA.... you could control its strength and speed by holding the input.

Yeah, and anyone who believes this is just flat out being a "scrubs" in the most academic sense of the word.

Oh yes I'm a scrub.... I never said I wasn't.... now pray tell.... how is an Execution Barrier a self-imposed rule..... you think I'm deliberately sucking at Kara Cancelling or Zangie'f 360's ? I didn't make those inputs... Capcom Did.... they are imposing the barrier... not me.

Everything you consider "low risk high reward" (or in other words, cheap) is just something good players learn to deal with and overcome by developing something even "cheaper."

Except they are. For example, players like Luffy and Wokfrone only play on specific pads and bring their own adaptors to tournaments simply because they can only play on those specific pads.

Meanwhile, as I previously mentioned, modern arcade sticks all have the same layout and parts as those are the layout and parts that players use (in the same way that all high end gaming keyboards use the same Cherry microswitches).

Depends on what defines a good player....

Anyway Arcade Sticks I'm pretty sure there are different types of Arcade Sticks.... namely the ones with different Directional Gates.... Korean Sticks (I don't even know what that is but appearently it makes a difference to some people). And some appeatently just feel different despite having a similar layout..... The Difference between an Xbox Controller and a PS Controller have a similar ratio of differences, namely the Positioning of the Perphirals on the Left Side and the shape of the Triggers and Sticks and Buttons..... they have more similarities than they do have differences. Atleast for me they are.

Basic kara-cancelling is not even "notoriously difficult". All it involves is pressing something in a certain order.

And in any case, alot of these so called "notoriously difficult" high-level techniques do get used alot, in high level tournament play. And it's accepted because, as stated in the quotes above, eventually, players just develop more tactics that can beat these out.

As for your comments about the meta-game, every competitive endeavour, be it fighting games, chess, basketball, etc. has a meta-game. It's something unavoidable. These are competitions, not some D&D tabletop role-playing session where knowledge of the meta can ruin people's immersion (because it's not a competition). As soon as you step into the ring or court, or arena to face another person the meta develops. As soon as you realize that doing move x beats out your opponents move y, you're playing with the meta (and of course, vice versa, when you realize that what your opponent is doing is beating out what you're doing).

Yes its pressing specific buttons in a specific order within a very specific window of time..... just because it isn't as convoluted as Hayate's Raijin doesn't mean simpler inputs like Akira's JFK are not notirously Difficult.... sorry I couldn't use actuall SF examples.... I can't actually perform the inputs and the game doean't have a tutorial (no the trials are not tutorials)

That very Meta Game you just described the is same one I strive to be a part..... Tier List Meta Game is something else all together.... if finding away to beat a cheap strategy involves switching characters then your game is Broken.... well broken for every unviable matchup... if that makes sense.

Because nobody wants a solved game. A game that is truly solved is boring since the outcome is predictable. Yet, at the same time, nobody like randomness in competitive games. Input like what we have in fighting games address this problem by allowing some small degree of unpredictability while allowing players to practice against it.

Of course, that's on top of my earlier point about allowing for multiple variations of both normal and special moves.

How does input that doesn't have a risk of Failing "Solve" the game ? If thats your final point on the matter then its a stupid one..... I'm pretty sure when developers were talking about about Solved Games they were talking about solved games they were talking about in game features not about the the physical execution of those features....
Sports don't deliberately have random elements to prevent the game from being "solved" chess does not have a piece that will spontaneously do something outside of the games rule set to Miraculously Solve The Game..... the entity thats suppose to stop you from proving that your strategy doesn't is an opponent..... not the very system you both play the game in....

Besides.... the game is already solved.... if two people have the same knowledge of what beats what then guess who's going to win.... The Guy who can do them faster.... thats not a mind game thats a solved game.

Ita just like Star Craft and its infamous Zerg Rushing.... the game was solved now it was just a matter of who can the most APMs.... in other words it became a game of execution.

 

[Lulu]

Let me say this..every time they try to make execution easier in fighting games the execution becomes more convoluted. Go and play SF2 and work your way up to Marvel 3 and you will know exactly what I am talking about. SF2 was strict but fair execution wise but when they start putting all that sneaky shit in to make it easier it didnt really harder or easier, it just becomes a chore.

An example of that is how they increased how many inputs you could get wrong enough for the game to still register and recognize that you're trying to perform a specific special attack.
Professional Players Exploited This by doing the exact minimum inputs to get them to come at faster..... creating a whole new game where you can buffer shit during dashes and can perform air specials at the very beginning of a jump instead of at the peak.... just to list a few examples from Street Fighter..... I don't know how thats going to negatively Affect DoA though.

 

[Lulu]

Ah, so DOA4. gotcha.

I often use Sirlin's example of climbing mountains when describing DOA4... It's like you had this good sized mountain in DOA3, but then decided to cut it horizontally at it's midpoint to make a plateau. You made the climb shorter and there's more people who can enjoy the full "mountain" but it effectively is boring to be there with everyone else on the flat ground.

How thats not an apt anology.... A Mountain can be a competitive endeavour but its mostly a physical one.... not a strategic one like a Fighting Game where the entity abd the only entity that should stop you from winning is your opponent..... he should be your mountain.... not the inputs.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Even in business game theory they say if a computer can win 100% of the time then its not really a game. Like checkers,and the more advanced checkers: Chess

 

[Lulu]

For more on execution, here's an interesting article by James Chen.
http://shoryuken.com/2012/07/16/lost-strategy-series-the-role-of-execution-by-james-chen/

And here's David Sirlin's response to James Chen's Article.

And heres a man I despise saying something I never would have expected to say in a million years because its uncharacteristic to his Domination 101 Series...... as far as I'm concerned he's been abducted by body snatchers and a more reasonable entity is currently wearing his "meat"... thats the only explanation.

We could post links to back up our points all day....well maybe you can.... I couldn't find anymore articles backing up my argument

I would prefer if we didn't because I genuinely do want to understand what all this all about but most importantly I want people to understand what its like to be left behind like I currently feel like I am now. I think the only way thats going to happen is if we use our own words to see if you really understand what we're saying.... as we say them

However if anybody has anything any links they think would be helpfull to either side of the argument then I would honestly welcome them and will read them, probably...... at the very least this will buy you ladies and gentlemen some piece and quite while I'm gone.

 

[Lulu]

d3v they wont click on links here you go
.

Thats a very good point.... here you go:

Execution in Fighting Games
MONDAY, JULY 16, 2012 AT 6:08PM
Here's an article about the role of execution in fighting games, by James Chen. I think the title and conclusion are kind of misleading because it does not really discuss the role of exeuction in fighting games, but rather the role of how different move commands affect the game.

Let's start with the good. Every example given is helpful to know, and I think each one is a correct example. In each case, Chen shows how the motion for doing a certain move being one thing rather than another thing affects gameplay and that this is usually for the better. Yes, a dragon punch motion and a reverse dragon punch motion do have different effects, and cause the moves to be used differently. Players should take that into account whether they are playing *as* such a character or *against* one. Good stuff here.

The problem is that that's not really what people mean when they talk about execution in fighting games. It's a very narrow, cherry picked kind of thing that doesn't fairly represent the topic. It also lead Chen to make this conclusion:

"Execution isn’t just about performing your combos. It’s also largely about knowing what your opponent CAN perform in given time frames. That ADDS to the mind games and the gameplay, not detracting from it."

I agree completely that the different motions chosen for moves gives another layer of things to think about and that that kind of variety is interesting relative to a game that had no such variety. The thing is, "execution" in general (not these very specific examples) has the opposite effect and it reduces strategy, relatively speaking. The more a game is about the difficulty of making your character do what you want to do, the necessarily less it is about strategy (that is, making good decisions).

This is why it's not a good idea to make special moves really hard to do. Make them take some *time* so some prediction is needed (even a few frames of prediction), yeah that's great. Make them start at a particular place on the joystick, such as a reverse dragon punch, and that affects how they're used, right. But to have some tiny input window to make them hard to do even when you have decided you want to do them, that's taking away emphasis on strategy. Making a game where the command to throw is secretly an option select tricky thing that you want to do basically always is another way to put more weight on dexterity that necessarily reduces strategy. Choosing commands that overlap too much (for example, ST Cammy's hooligan throw and spinning knuckle) puts more emphasis on dexterity than the decision of choosing the right move. So to increase strategy slightly, it's better to make those not overlap (and in HD Remix, they don't).

Making a game such that bread-and-butter combos require 1-frame linking is another great example of reducing the importance of strategy. In a recent stream, Chen himself said that in SF4, if you can't do Sakura's 1-frame link combo, you shouldn't be playing Sakura. I agree! That goes to show how strongly execution is favored over correct decision making / strategy in the case of SF4 Sakura.

We should really be striving to reduce execution requirements as much as possible while keeping the nature of the game intact. That is, making all dragon punches a single button press would reduce execution, but it would also actually ruin a bunch of strategy stuff by making them too reactive and not predictive enough, so we shouldn't do that. That's not a case where reducing execution helps, so I'm not talking about things like that. I am talking about sequences or moves that are hard apart from any strategic consideration. Like Sakura having 1-frame links as a critical thing, instead of being a character anyone could play. (You don't even need to change the power level of the character or reduce any strategy here, it's just a matter of being more inclusive as to how many players get to participate in that strategy.)

I know there's a lot of execution fetishism going around, and that's unfortunate for a genre that many would like to point to as a strategy genre that happens to have a dexterity requirement to play. Rasing the dexterity requirement above the minimum needed to make it all work just subtracts from the importance of strategy while excluding people. I'd like to see more love for an inclusive approach, as that restores more power to good decisions while inviting even more players to participate in those decisions

 

[d3v]

Even if Sirlin has a point, Chen still has one. Especially with certain moves such as reversals. To paraphrase Mike Z (the same person who stated that anything past a quarter circle motion is unnecessary, unless you're somehow out of available inputs for moves) "reversals should be hard". In other words, things like Shoryuken's, Flash Kicks, etc. shouldn't be so easy to pull off that you can expect to see them every time where a person can reversal out. This is why he's such a big critic (as are alot of people) of the Persona 4 Ultimat/Arena series where you're given two button reversals - since it means that players just end up mashing reversals and anytime that they can reversal out, they do it.

At the same time, part of what Chen is talking about is the fact (as Sirlin acknowledges) that move motions do imbue certain properties to moves. Easiest example, you don't expect Guile to toss a Sonic Boom at you when he's walking forward.

Again..... did not factor execution into the equation..... its easy to just say "counter with this or that".... but you need to understand that some people are physically incapable of using a technique they know would have been a good counter in a particular scenario. And actually the argument was originally about the six button layout..... not about Multiple versions of the Specials.... other Developers seemedcto have found a way around this problem.... like Christie's Charge Multi hitting Strikes in DoA.... you could control its strength and speed by holding the input.

Because you keep bringing up this shit about fireballs being unfair.

At the same time, I already did mention how the different versions of specials, which is inherrent in the 6 button system gives additional depth to the system - one that is integral to Street Fighter.

At the same time, holding down buttons to control strength and speed, isn't that just yet another form of execution, one that might cause even more mistakes since more timing is involved? Especially when you factor it in for 6 regular normals, plus 6 or more extra command normals, including command crouching normals, and that's even before we get to special moves. Imagine getting jumped in on because your standing anti-air normal, let's say a back + heavy punch, didn't come out because you couldn't hold the button long enough before you got hit by the jump in.

Oh yes I'm a scrub.... I never said I wasn't.... now pray tell.... how is an Execution Barrier a self-imposed rule..... you think I'm deliberately sucking at Kara Cancelling or Zangie'f 360's ? I didn't make those inputs... Capcom Did.... they are imposing the barrier... not me.

This particular part of the argument has nothing to do with execution. You were just flat out complaining about fireballs and about people using them, and other good tactics.

Anyway Arcade Sticks I'm pretty sure there are different types of Arcade Sticks.... namely the ones with different Directional Gates.... Korean Sticks (I don't even know what that is but appearently it makes a difference to some people). And some appeatently just feel different despite having a similar layout..... The Difference between an Xbox Controller and a PS Controller have a similar ratio of differences, namely the Positioning of the Perphirals on the Left Side and the shape of the Triggers and Sticks and Buttons..... they have more similarities than they do have differences. Atleast for me they are.

And this is one point where you are absolutely wrong. Don't even try to argue with someone who is as deeply involved with the arcade stick scene as me.

The basic Sanwa JLF + OBSF buttons is so ubiquitous that it's pretty easy to find one and borrow it at any tournament, regardless of console. Heck, I've done this myself at majors when I didn't want to have to take my own stick with me on the plane.

Yes its pressing specific buttons in a specific order within a very specific window of time..... just because it isn't as convoluted as Hayate's Raijin doesn't mean simpler inputs like Akira's JFK are not notirously Difficult.... sorry I couldn't use actuall SF examples.... I can't actually perform the inputs and the game doean't have a tutorial (no the trials are not tutorials)

That very Meta Game you just described the is same one I strive to be a part..... Tier List Meta Game is something else all together.... if finding away to beat a cheap strategy involves switching characters then your game is Broken.... well broken for every unviable matchup... if that makes sense.

Counter picking and switching characters is a valid part of competition.

Good and bad matchups will always be part of fighting games as long as they have diverse casts. Taking that out would simply result in more boring game.

To quote from one of Seth's Dom101 articles.

Because fighting game characters (as individuals) lack the complexity of a set of chessmen, establishing a background of "sameness" in fighting games is for these reasons, usually a disaster. Witness games like the later Mortal Kombat installments, KI2- true dogs of the fighting game world. In an MK-style game, even though you have a lot of characters, they all play in a depressingly similar fashion. Everyone has the same basic moves and options. The difference between them (aside from their different heads, and cool "personalities") boils down to some characters simply having better versions of that same set of moves. Whee! They also mix it up with "different" specials. Of course, these also fall into depressingly similar categories (the crummy projectile, the teleport punch, etc.), and of the ones that arent uselessly suicidal, there are some that are just obviously better than the rest. The characters that end up being the winners are the ones with the best versions of what everyone else has too. This leads to a terribly flat game, and while it may seem "balanced", its not actually an improvement- everything is just dumbed-down. Ironically, these simplistic attempts at balance, while intended to help the game, end up hurting it by making all the characters that much less interesting. It merely forces you to play in a far more restricted manner, to squeeze that tiny margin of superiority out of your remarkably similar moves.

This is a waste of time, and is at odds with the basic motivation for having had different characters in the first place. Why have a lot of characters when they all play the same way? Better to simply have a few (or even one) far more developed characters. Chess trades multiple characters for incredible depth in one, and though theres nothing wrong with that (ask me about my idealized "All Ryu v Ryu" SF4), thats not what the scrub actually wants, nor is it commercially viable.

Down to your last wish, scrubby! If he wises up here, he should realize that he shouldnt be wishing for "balance" (in any simple sense of the word) at all. What he should wish is for truly varied characters, none of whom is so weak so as to necessarily lose in boring ways. You dont need to focus on avoiding powerful characters- you just want to keep everyone interesting. I call this "meta-balance".

SSF2T provides an excellent example of this type of meta-balance. In a "normally balanced" game, the possible opposing sides are identical, or at least functionally very similar, and of course, everyone has a roughly similar chance to win. Does everyone have a roughly equal chance to win in ST? No way. Are there stronger and weaker characters? You bet. Theres quite a bit of distance between first and last place on the rankings chart. However, look at what you get in the trade: the characters in ST are genuinely different- very few play in ways that are at all similar. Each has distinct strengths. This is cool on its own (real variety is more fun), but adds even more in another way- the relative importance of each of their individual strengths varies from matchup to matchup. This is how genuinely different characters really repay the effort that their design requires- with real depth. Being good at a meta-balanced game doesnt entail just mastering some characters gimmick, then repeating it all day, come what may. Instead, you have to understand their strengths *in relation* to those of the other, different characters. Youll often need entirely different tactics against different opponents, even though youre playing the same character throughout. Chun Li, under some circumstances is best played as a keep-away turtle, in others wants to rush you down, doing anything she can to avoid being pushed back, and in still others, somewhere between these two extremes. This is how you get a game that stays interesting and becomes deeper with time, instead of a quickly-won race to discover whos stupid version of the same generic attack cant be retaliated against, and is therefore the champion.

Now it's good that he mentions Super Street Fighter III Turbo because that game has some horrible match ups. Ryu vs E. Honda is 9:1 in Ryu's favor.

Yet the game still has good meta-balance because the playstyles and match ups as still interesting.

To bring in yet another point. Here are a couple of quotes from an old Sonic Hurricane article by Maj on balance.

How are designers supposed to tackle this issue? Every experienced player will tell you that concrete strategy is all about matchups. If you start with two characters, you’ll want to give them a complex array of options with the ultimate goal of staging dynamic battles while ensuring that the most skillful player wins consistently. Whenever you upgrade one move, you’ll have to match it with the appropriate adjustment on the opposite side.

When you introduce a third character, the number of matchups triples. Now when you institute an upgrade, you have to cautiously strengthen two potential rivals to that exact same degree, then compare them with each other to make sure their matchup doesn’t suffer. Every minor tweak can snowball into a series of adjustments echoing back and forth. We’re still talking about three characters here. Well, if you have a cast of 56 diverse characters to balance, you’re basically screwed. Nobody’s that smart.

Clearly, demanding 20+ evenly matched characters is an unrealistic expectation. What would be considered a reasonable number? Looking through the Classics, i’d say any “good” fighting game with a legitimate top tier of four or more characters is perfectly acceptable.

As stated, and supported by the link to his other article, having a top tier of only 4 characters, regardless of the total number of characters is generally good enough for a game to be tournament viable.

What matters is not the total number of characters you see in a tournament, but the quality of the match ups of the characters you do see in it.

Look at a game like SFIII 3rd Strike, despite having a well defined top 4, with a clear bias towards 1 character, the game still gets massive tournament play in Japan. This is because the game system and the match ups are enough to keep the players interested.

How does input that doesn't have a risk of Failing "Solve" the game ? If thats your final point on the matter then its a stupid one..... I'm pretty sure when developers were talking about about Solved Games they were talking about solved games they were talking about in game features not about the the physical execution of those features....
Sports don't deliberately have random elements to prevent the game from being "solved" chess does not have a piece that will spontaneously do something outside of the games rule set to Miraculously Solve The Game..... the entity thats suppose to stop you from proving that your strategy doesn't is an opponent..... not the very system you both play the game in....

Besides.... the game is already solved.... if two people have the same knowledge of what beats what then guess who's going to win.... The Guy who can do them faster.... thats not a mind game thats a solved game.

Ita just like Star Craft and its infamous Zerg Rushing.... the game was solved now it was just a matter of who can the most APMs.... in other words it became a game of execution.

Solved means that a known strategy for beating the game exists that works almost 100% of the time. Chess is actually close to this state already (it's partially solved), and white has a clear advantage over black due to this. It's only the complexity

With execution as a concern, both at low and high level play, you still get the risk that either player cannot execute their strategy perfectly, which leads to openings for the opposing player to be able to overcome it.

In any case, the point you're forgetting is that fighting games take place in real time. This means that speed and timing, aka execution will always be a factor on top of strategy. It's part of what makes games like this unique. They require a combination of both a winning strategy and the execution to be able to pull it off.

If you want to totally focus on strategy alone and remove the execution requirement, then you'd have to make them turn based.

 

[Awesmic]

I would prefer if we didn't because I genuinely do want to understand what all this all about but most importantly I want people to understand what its like to be left behind like I currently feel like I am now.

I've been there. It's a traumatic experience. But at least it's a lot easier to weed out who your real friends are afterward.

You'd be better off not worrying so much about the execution barrier and focus on you as an individual are capable of doing right now, which is improving your reaction time to situations you're familiar with in certain matchups... all the better if you know how the opponent plays said character in said matchup. And since you said you played online once (and I highly doubt you have much experienced competition outside of that), I would suggest trying it to get a feel of how experienced players play certain characters, especially if it's your only option for good competition.

You'll lose some, and you'll win some. But if you save replays, ask questions, and (hopefully) get good answers that will help resolve the holes in your gameplay, you'll likely forget about this execution barrier and be amazed at the gradual progress you're making to gain that confidence you need to break your own personal execution barrier.

 

[Lulu]

I've been there. It's a traumatic experience. But at least it's a lot easier to weed out who your real friends are afterward.

You'd be better off not worrying so much about the execution barrier and focus on you as an individual are capable of doing right now, which is improving your reaction time to situations you're familiar with in certain matchups... all the better if you know how the opponent plays said character in said matchup. And since you said you played online once (and I highly doubt you have much experienced competition outside of that), I would suggest trying it to get a feel of how experienced players play certain characters, especially if it's your only option for good competition.

You'll lose some, and you'll win some. But if you save replays, ask questions, and (hopefully) get good answers that will help resolve the holes in your gameplay, you'll likely forget about this execution barrier and be amazed at the gradual progress you're making to gain that confidence you need to break your own personal execution barrier.

I do that best with Rachel.... she just fits me like a glove.... it doesn't feel like my attention is split in between rereading my opponent and getting the executions right.... it feels like I have a full array of options and performing them is as easy as like selecting a song in my MP3 player.
Nothing is hard and the Commands don't infringe upon one another like the do with Brad and Hayate. I can even convert off of accidential counter hits when I accidentily launch an opponent in the air unintentionally (Trying to get a lift stun)
I mean look at her .... shes all kinds of awesome.

And thanks for the support.... "Its not over (for me) yet".

 

[Lulu]

Even if Sirlin has a point, Chen still has one. Especially with certain moves such as reversals. To paraphrase Mike Z (the same person who stated that anything past a quarter circle motion is unnecessary, unless you're somehow out of available inputs for moves) "reversals should be hard". In other words, things like Shoryuken's, Flash Kicks, etc. shouldn't be so easy to pull off that you can expect to see them every time where a person can reversal out. This is why he's such a big critic (as are alot of people) of the Persona 4 Ultimat/Arena series where you're given two button reversals - since it means that players just end up mashing reversals and anytime that they can reversal out, they do it.

At the same time, part of what Chen is talking about is the fact (as Sirlin acknowledges) that move motions do imbue certain properties to moves. Easiest example, you don't expect Guile to toss a Sonic Boom at you when he's walking forward.

Theres no if... Sirin most definitely has a point and it does not over shadow Chens point but it most definitely over shadows yours..... I don't know what you read into that article but Chen's basic point is the characters should feel different..... personally I think its lazy to give two identical moves different inputs make characters feel different over having two different moves all together that literally make characters unquestionably different. But thats an argument for a different time... perhaps in the imaginary future when Capcom stopps clinging to nostalgic nonsense... thats never gonna happen.

No where did Mr. Chen say anything about the difficulty of those inputs should be a factor, his argument is they should be different so that they are most optimal in different scenarios like on block or while moving forward or if a character is in mid air.... his argument isn't about deliberately designing inputs to arbitrarily increase the chances of Failure like yours is. Like it or not Chen is not one your side of the table.... you're cherry picking his points to make them inline with your unique brand of logic that only makes sense to you.

About Reversals..... they are strongest at the beginning of the Reversal Attack and most vulnerable in the middle and end...... kind of like DoA's wake up kicks..... if for some reason you have untouchable reversals that are completely invulnerable and unpunishable then do you honestly think changing the input is going to make it weaker ? All you doing is creating a completey unnecessary gap between people with different execution skills.... perhaps I suck at performing the reversal input and I get punished when the wrong move comes out instead..... Daigo on the other hand can just keep doing that shit without a care in the world because the problem was never the input.... it was the mechanic itself. I suppose your response to that is "Then find an Exploit to beat that untouchable reversal"..... thats bad game design.... its a valid competitive tool but that doesn't mean the developers made a good game.

Because you keep bringing up this shit about fireballs being unfair.

At the same time, I already did mention how the different versions of specials, which is inherrent in the 6 button system gives additional depth to the system - one that is integral to Street Fighter.

At the same time, holding down buttons to control strength and speed, isn't that just yet another form of execution, one that might cause even more mistakes since more timing is involved? Especially when you factor it in for 6 regular normals, plus 6 or more extra command normals, including command crouching normals, and that's even before we get to special moves. Imagine getting jumped in on because your standing anti-air normal, let's say a back + heavy punch, didn't come out because you couldn't hold the button long enough before you got hit by the jump in.

This particular part of the argument has nothing to do with execution. You were just flat out complaining about fireballs and about people using them, and other good tactics.

Everything in the game has everything to do with execution until they find some way to jam a peripheral into your brain to allow you to perform the all tge commands without the middle management of your precious Execution Barrier getting in the way of me doing something I intended to do.

The part in bold is true.... funny how you can spot a problem with an input you might find too hard to perform.... but suddenly become blind to that problem when it means losing your precious Fireball Traps. Its tha very double standard that I have a problem.....
I just want intuitive inputs and designs.... I don't know how you're going to implement a multi speed special attack at all but thats no excuse to not atleast explore other methods don't work.... if charges don't work then have a dedicate Firebal button with differen't commands for fireballs of different speeds and Types.... then you can have arching fire balls and wavy fireballs in any unoccupied input motions to add to your precious complexity if you so desire.

The basic Sanwa JLF + OBSF buttons is so ubiquitous that it's pretty easy to find one and borrow it at any tournament, regardless of console. Heck, I've done this myself at majors when I didn't want to have to take my own stick with me on the plane.

Fair Enough.... Arcade Sticks are uncharted territory for me......its still stupid to design a game for a peripheral people do not have.... knowing more about Arcade Sticks isn't going to change that.

Counter picking and switching characters is a valid part of competition.

Good and bad matchups will always be part of fighting games as long as they have diverse casts. Taking that out would simply result in more boring game.

To quote from one of Seth's Dom101 articles.

Now it's good that he mentions Super Street Fighter III Turbo because that game has some horrible match ups. Ryu vs E. Honda is 9:1 in Ryu's favor.

Yet the game still has good meta-balance because the playstyles and match ups as still interesting.

To bring in yet another point. Here are a couple of quotes from an old Sonic Hurricane article by Maj on balance.

As stated, and supported by the link to his other article, having a top tier of only 4 characters, regardless of the total number of characters is generally good enough for a game to be tournament viable.

What matters is not the total number of characters you see in a tournament, but the quality of the match ups of the characters you do see in it.

Look at a game like SFIII 3rd Strike, despite having a well defined top 4, with a clear bias towards 1 character, the game still gets massive tournament play in Japan. This is because the game system and the match ups are enough to keep the players interested.

And thats good for the people who play those characters..... and have the execution to use the character that make it to the top Tier.

But don't confuse a game being "Tournament Viable" as a game being well designed and balanced... if only 4 of the many characters are Tournament Viable then thats a shitty tournament.... because its a shitty game..... in that case you might awell have a Dark Souls tournament because hey.... only 10 of the 100 builds are PvP viable. But even that is better.... theres no Physical Executio Barrier.... but thats only because the game is completely devoid of any skillful play.

But most importantly its a big fat massive Cop Out whenever people bring out The Meta Game and The Tier List becausing Developers keep using it as an excuse to not fix their games.... yes... FIX....because it is broken. And by players who conveniently are not afftected by it the negative side of the matchups and exploits.....and since we're in the habbit of linking things instead of explaining them.... Here you go.

Solved means that a known strategy for beating the game exists that works almost 100% of the time. Chess is actually close to this state already (it's partially solved), and white has a clear advantage over black due to this. It's only the complexity

With execution as a concern, both at low and high level play, you still get the risk that either player cannot execute their strategy perfectly, which leads to openings for the opposing player to be able to overcome it.

In any case, the point you're forgetting is that fighting games take place in real time. This means that speed and timing, aka execution will always be a factor on top of strategy. It's part of what makes games like this unique. They require a combination of both a winning strategy and the execution to be able to pull it off.

If you want to totally focus on strategy alone and remove the execution requirement, then you'd have to make them turn based.

Don't confuse me wanting to focus an strategy alone as me saying I want a turn based game.... Time and Space do add extra deep and layers on top of a strategy its one of the best parts about Real Time Fighting Games that character I'm currently maining special nuances to their moves that you just can't replicated in a turn based enviroment...... I want to say execution doesn't play a role in that vision but his Article Points out that it does.... I think its lazy but nothing he said goes torward excluding people from experiencing high level play with more intuitive input execution.....

You on the other insist that these inputs should be difficult to execute to deliberatey cause players to screw up...... to give you some idea of how flawed and wrong your argument is. Go to any competitive activity and propose that that very same logic and bath in the awkward "is this guys serious" looks people are going to give you because that argument doesn't make sense at all...... you're not going to convince the Football Association that randomly turning on the sprinklers in the middle of a match to deliberately increases the chsnces of making the athletes slip and miss crucial tackles and scores. Go to the Tennis association and see if they don't laugh in face when you propose you oild up the handles on the tennis Rackets and have the Net move up and down and back and forth randomly when they play.

What you're proposing is turning a competitive game into a random one for literally no reason at all....
. Because you haven't proven how perfect execution can solve a game when all its elements are perfectly balanced and are mostly mind games..... perfect execution doesn't entitle you to guaranteed damage..... you're more than welcome to pick any move in DoA5 you can do better than anybody else and see if you can beat everybody using it.... Akira's JFK doesn't have magic properties that prevent it from being Held, Side Stepped or Blocked or even being counter hit or beaten by an Offensive Hold..... its a move just like any other in the game.... its just hard to execute because you want that jolly good feeling of doing some thing hard for no reason....

So to address what seems to be main point of your argument:
EASY INPUTS DON'T SOLVE GAMES.... they don't guarantee damage. all they promiss is the move is guaranteed to come out when you make it come out.

Or can you back that up and prove that a game has been solved by easy inputs ?